Whats the good, bad, and the ugly between the two?
:oface
pros/cons of going turbo KA or SR20?
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MikeMurphy
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People asking this question is the ugly 
They are actually very similar. Both will put you into around 230rwhp reasonably easily with good reliability, providing your not a clown and know what your doing.
Do a search man. You will find probably close to 200 threads of people asking the same question you just asked.
They are actually very similar. Both will put you into around 230rwhp reasonably easily with good reliability, providing your not a clown and know what your doing.
Do a search man. You will find probably close to 200 threads of people asking the same question you just asked.
Really? How?xxtrizz wrote:honestly the SR is jsut technologically better...
Quote »...but I think in scientific terms the KA would produce mroe power since it has a higher displacement. [/quote]
Then go to say this. Given the SR and KA had the exact same turbo kit of course the KA will put out more hp/tq. Both engines were born from the same company and prolly the same design team. I'm not refering to you personally xxtrizz, but the whole ignorace behind the KA dissing has to stop. They both have the same potental in the long run one will just have a bit more torque. The KA's displacement isn't a handicap it's a blessing.
Direct ignition system.... uhhh direct ignitino system,..... I think the direct ignition system is about all that seperates them but yeah its better technology.
Yeah ka dissing is stupid, jdm being magically faster is only true on hondas. I applaud you 2240sx good response. THe only way an engien swap is worth it in my eyes is if you get a skyline engine. point blank... just liek getting a type R for a civic hatch big difference in engines the SR and KA are pretty much similar, cept the KA woudl produce more power.
Spend money on a rebuild of the KA not on buying an engine and rebuilding it. Hell 5 years from now you gotta source a any parts for the SR would be almost impractical.
Anyways respect derives from something that people think is impossible and someone else makes it possible. i respect the KA turbo owners because they made the JDM lover sr people realize how ignorant they where about the KA power.
Yeah ka dissing is stupid, jdm being magically faster is only true on hondas. I applaud you 2240sx good response. THe only way an engien swap is worth it in my eyes is if you get a skyline engine. point blank... just liek getting a type R for a civic hatch big difference in engines the SR and KA are pretty much similar, cept the KA woudl produce more power.
Spend money on a rebuild of the KA not on buying an engine and rebuilding it. Hell 5 years from now you gotta source a any parts for the SR would be almost impractical.
Anyways respect derives from something that people think is impossible and someone else makes it possible. i respect the KA turbo owners because they made the JDM lover sr people realize how ignorant they where about the KA power.
I've seen very few KA engines make over 400HP, however I've seen plenty of SR engines make over 400HP+
Just a little ..... googled quote
"Horsepower: The SR creates far more horsepower then a turbocharged KA. Although the KA has a 25% increase in displacement, the displacement is found in the stroke. The larger stroke limits the KA’s ability to rev as high as the SR. Since HP = Torque(RPM)/5252 (torque @ a given RPM is multiplied by that RPM, then the answer is divided by 5252) higher revs will create higher HP readings. (You will notice on graphs that all engines have the same horsepower and torque at 5252 RPM’s).
Torque: The KA obviously creates far more low-end torque (created by the bigger stroke). Since torque is what moves you, you would think the KA would be the better choice. The SR, however, can easily overcome this loss in low-end torque. Since the KA redlines at approximately 6,000 RPM’s and the SR at 7,500 RPM’s the SR can create more low-end torque. How, you ask? Well there are two kinds of torque, engine torque and gear torque. The KA produces more engine torque and since the SR revs higher it can use a lower gear ratio too build more gear torque. The gear torque quickly increases the total torque output in a vehicle. Therefore, with the 25% increase in RPM’s, the SR can produce comparable low-end torque.
Weight: Obviously, this is a huge concern for any racer. Lighter weight means quicker acceleration, deceleration, and better handling. The SR is an all aluminum construction, while the KA has an iron block.
Technology: The KA is a truck engine. It uses a distributor and is fuel injected. That is about the extent of its technology. The SR has direct ignition, and continuously variable valve timing (late model SR’s). This technology will give the SR a flatter torque curve then the KA.
I know the saying goes, “There is no replacement for cubic displacement.” but, I would take the SR over the KA any day of the week. Besides, what would you rather have? A big block NASCAR engine or a F1 engine?
With that said, I await to hear what I missed about the performance benefits of a KA."
Just a little ..... googled quote
"Horsepower: The SR creates far more horsepower then a turbocharged KA. Although the KA has a 25% increase in displacement, the displacement is found in the stroke. The larger stroke limits the KA’s ability to rev as high as the SR. Since HP = Torque(RPM)/5252 (torque @ a given RPM is multiplied by that RPM, then the answer is divided by 5252) higher revs will create higher HP readings. (You will notice on graphs that all engines have the same horsepower and torque at 5252 RPM’s).
Torque: The KA obviously creates far more low-end torque (created by the bigger stroke). Since torque is what moves you, you would think the KA would be the better choice. The SR, however, can easily overcome this loss in low-end torque. Since the KA redlines at approximately 6,000 RPM’s and the SR at 7,500 RPM’s the SR can create more low-end torque. How, you ask? Well there are two kinds of torque, engine torque and gear torque. The KA produces more engine torque and since the SR revs higher it can use a lower gear ratio too build more gear torque. The gear torque quickly increases the total torque output in a vehicle. Therefore, with the 25% increase in RPM’s, the SR can produce comparable low-end torque.
Weight: Obviously, this is a huge concern for any racer. Lighter weight means quicker acceleration, deceleration, and better handling. The SR is an all aluminum construction, while the KA has an iron block.
Technology: The KA is a truck engine. It uses a distributor and is fuel injected. That is about the extent of its technology. The SR has direct ignition, and continuously variable valve timing (late model SR’s). This technology will give the SR a flatter torque curve then the KA.
I know the saying goes, “There is no replacement for cubic displacement.” but, I would take the SR over the KA any day of the week. Besides, what would you rather have? A big block NASCAR engine or a F1 engine?
With that said, I await to hear what I missed about the performance benefits of a KA."
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S14owner96
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If I remember correctly I saw a KA powered 240 in SCC like two years ago. THis motor was completely worked over. New pistons, ported and polished, the works, obvisouly over 10G's in the motor. For 493 WHP. Now on the other hand I hear of many many many SR's making 400 WHP without even touching the bottom end. I know Enjuku has an SR powered 240 with 510+ HP on a stock bottom end. Which saves you booku bucks. I think the choice for the better motor is obvious. Now on the other hand if you just want to be able to say "I beat you with a KA" and have that "braggin factor" then it's a different story, but mechanically, I don't think you can beat the SR.
I think you guys are getting "technology" confused with "performance."
Sure the SR has a few bells and whistles the KA doesn't(not many that matter IMO), but when it comes to revving, the SR has a very "pedestrian" valvetrain compared to the KA. While the KA can't take advantage of its better designed valvetrain, the SR potentially could use one that could allow it to rev up really high with its relatively "rev friendly" bottom end geometry.
Both motors are a bit of a mismatch in that respect. The one that has the valvetrain to rev can't because of its long stroke, and the one that needs the valvetrain has a really poor one IMO.
The CA is a better "matched" motor IMO, but it just doesn't have the displacement for bigger power. You can only rev so high and wait so long for the turbo to boost your anemic powerband...
My only question is... why spend oodles of money for an SR swap for only about 170rwhp, then gobs more money on bolt-on after bolt-on to get up to about 240-250rwhp?
Are people missing how cheap it is to piece together a turbo kit on a KA if you have half a brain?
I understand the high mileage argument, but it's not like the SRs people are getting are factory fresh. Plus boosting on a perfectly healthy 150k mile KA is not going to kill the engine if you avoid detonation. So that seems kinda a moot point if your KA is in relatively good condition.
All the people arguing about which engine can hold 400+ rwhp are good for a laugh as well. How many people here actually make that much power? Have you ever driven a car with that much power on the streets? I don't think the example that more people are using engine X to make 500+rwhp is a good one, due to the simple fact that you can make ANY engine put out stupid amounts of power if you have enough money and a little knowhow. I guarantee you a KA could pump out 500+rwhp, there is just little point, so not many people do it.
Oh well - I guess it comes down to personal preference.
Sure the SR has a few bells and whistles the KA doesn't(not many that matter IMO), but when it comes to revving, the SR has a very "pedestrian" valvetrain compared to the KA. While the KA can't take advantage of its better designed valvetrain, the SR potentially could use one that could allow it to rev up really high with its relatively "rev friendly" bottom end geometry.
Both motors are a bit of a mismatch in that respect. The one that has the valvetrain to rev can't because of its long stroke, and the one that needs the valvetrain has a really poor one IMO.
The CA is a better "matched" motor IMO, but it just doesn't have the displacement for bigger power. You can only rev so high and wait so long for the turbo to boost your anemic powerband...
My only question is... why spend oodles of money for an SR swap for only about 170rwhp, then gobs more money on bolt-on after bolt-on to get up to about 240-250rwhp?
Are people missing how cheap it is to piece together a turbo kit on a KA if you have half a brain?
I understand the high mileage argument, but it's not like the SRs people are getting are factory fresh. Plus boosting on a perfectly healthy 150k mile KA is not going to kill the engine if you avoid detonation. So that seems kinda a moot point if your KA is in relatively good condition.
All the people arguing about which engine can hold 400+ rwhp are good for a laugh as well. How many people here actually make that much power? Have you ever driven a car with that much power on the streets? I don't think the example that more people are using engine X to make 500+rwhp is a good one, due to the simple fact that you can make ANY engine put out stupid amounts of power if you have enough money and a little knowhow. I guarantee you a KA could pump out 500+rwhp, there is just little point, so not many people do it.
Oh well - I guess it comes down to personal preference.
Def wrote:I think you guys are getting "technology" confused with "performance."
Sure the SR has a few bells and whistles the KA doesn't(not many that matter IMO), but when it comes to revving, the SR has a very "pedestrian" valvetrain compared to the KA. While the KA can't take advantage of its better designed valvetrain, the SR potentially could use one that could allow it to rev up really high with its relatively "rev friendly" bottom end geometry.
Both motors are a bit of a mismatch in that respect. The one that has the valvetrain to rev can't because of its long stroke, and the one that needs the valvetrain has a really poor one IMO.
The CA is a better "matched" motor IMO, but it just doesn't have the displacement for bigger power. You can only rev so high and wait so long for the turbo to boost your anemic powerband...
My only question is... why spend oodles of money for an SR swap for only about 170rwhp, then gobs more money on bolt-on after bolt-on to get up to about 240-250rwhp?
Are people missing how cheap it is to piece together a turbo kit on a KA if you have half a brain?
I understand the high mileage argument, but it's not like the SRs people are getting are factory fresh. Plus boosting on a perfectly healthy 150k mile KA is not going to kill the engine if you avoid detonation. So that seems kinda a moot point if your KA is in relatively good condition.
All the people arguing about which engine can hold 400+ rwhp are good for a laugh as well. How many people here actually make that much power? Have you ever driven a car with that much power on the streets? I don't think the example that more people are using engine X to make 500+rwhp is a good one, due to the simple fact that you can make ANY engine put out stupid amounts of power if you have enough money and a little knowhow. I guarantee you a KA could pump out 500+rwhp, there is just little point, so not many people do it.
Oh well - I guess it comes down to personal preference.
1) I make that much power. (not on my 240 tho)
2) I've driven a stock Viper on the street, as well as my Z daily during spring/summer/fall.
3) Correct, with $, just about any engine can be made for huge HP..just depends on how much $ u have.
4) Explain how "cheap" it would be to piece together a turbo kit for a KA. Please include the following items.
Turbo T3/T4Manifoldintake/exhaust/downpipeBOVIntercoolerCustom PipingFuel ManagementFuel PumpLabor (unless do it yourself)Stock Engine w/ high miles? --> rebuild ($)
Tidbits here and there, oem parts, hoses, etc etc
5) Boosting on a 150K KA engine is just asking for trouble (unless rebuilt)...I had a website with someone who tried..and blew it up.
my 3 cents
1. No offense, but Z32's are fat. My E36 M3 is overweight IMO and I'm pushing 3100lbs with a full interior. Z32's make this look lightweight... S13's can easily be 2500-2600lbs, add in 500+rwhp and you just can't use that on the street with a car that light. It'd be like adding 33% more torque to your car from idle to redline.
2. Again, power to weight ratio is the thing to look at, not comparing straight power numbers with bloated cars.
3. Glad you agree.
4. I think it wouldn't be hard at all to put together a solid turbo setup on a KA for less than the price of an SR swap. Heck, you can usually pick up a prepackaged GReddy kit for less than an SR swap, and plenty of people have put toghether their own 240+rwhp setups for less than $2k.
5. If the engine is in good condition I don't see why boosting will kill it. Now if you have a 150k mile engine that doubles as a smoke generator for the local highway, then yea, boosting on it will finish it off in short order. I've seen some really stout engines that had high miles, and some engines that were in bad shape with less than 100k miles. Heck, I know people that take their cars to the track(road course as it seems to be called here) at least 5-6 times a year and they've got close to 200k miles on their original engine. I guarantee you hitting positive pressure a few times on the street for brief periods isn't near as bad on an engine as 2+hrs of near continuous WOT a day for two days in a row. It all depends on how it was taken care of.
Just my personal experience.
I was looking towards SRs a while back, but now I think a KA24DET sounds like an interesting engine. Besides, I can't see myself going with a smaller engine after getting a little taste of torque with my M3.
Just need to get me an S13 HB now...
2. Again, power to weight ratio is the thing to look at, not comparing straight power numbers with bloated cars.
3. Glad you agree.
4. I think it wouldn't be hard at all to put together a solid turbo setup on a KA for less than the price of an SR swap. Heck, you can usually pick up a prepackaged GReddy kit for less than an SR swap, and plenty of people have put toghether their own 240+rwhp setups for less than $2k.
5. If the engine is in good condition I don't see why boosting will kill it. Now if you have a 150k mile engine that doubles as a smoke generator for the local highway, then yea, boosting on it will finish it off in short order. I've seen some really stout engines that had high miles, and some engines that were in bad shape with less than 100k miles. Heck, I know people that take their cars to the track(road course as it seems to be called here) at least 5-6 times a year and they've got close to 200k miles on their original engine. I guarantee you hitting positive pressure a few times on the street for brief periods isn't near as bad on an engine as 2+hrs of near continuous WOT a day for two days in a row. It all depends on how it was taken care of.
Just my personal experience.
I was looking towards SRs a while back, but now I think a KA24DET sounds like an interesting engine. Besides, I can't see myself going with a smaller engine after getting a little taste of torque with my M3.
Just need to get me an S13 HB now...
Greddy - http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0404tur_kit/
http://www.drifting.com/articl...itle=
$2k....very unlikely
but whatever floats people's boats
http://www.drifting.com/articl...itle=
$2k....very unlikely
but whatever floats people's boats
[s3] wrote:4) Explain how "cheap" it would be to piece together a turbo kit for a KA. Please include the following items.
Turbo T3/T4Manifoldintake/exhaust/downpipeBOVIntercoolerCustom PipingFuel ManagementFuel PumpLabor (unless do it yourself)Stock Engine w/ high miles? --> rebuild ($)
Tidbits here and there, oem parts, hoses, etc etc
5) Boosting on a 150K KA engine is just asking for trouble (unless rebuilt)...I had a website with someone who tried..and blew it up.
my 3 cents
I can tell you, to do what you listed, get a nice exhaust put on, rebuild the engine with all forged internals etc. it IS more than 7000 dollars, I know this from experience. However, building up an SR to a comparable level is practically an identical price. So really, it just comes down to which you like more. For more info on the subject, check this out: http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....58458
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Ubernoober
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- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:51 pm
[s3] wrote:Greddy - http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0404tur_kit/
http://www.drifting.com/articl...itle=
$2k....very unlikely
but whatever floats people's boats
I didn't say the GReddy kit was any good - I just used it as an example.
$2k is perfectly possible if you don't have the urge to have every shiny new part on it. It won't be the best setup out there, but it's doable if you're willing to put some effort and work into it.
I'd say a 300rwhp setup could be had for $3.5-4k depending on deals and whatnot. Get some parts used and I don't see why $3k is out of the question... That's a whole bunch of money to modify a car if you have the drive to do it cheaply.
Def wrote:I didn't say the GReddy kit was any good - I just used it as an example.
$2k is perfectly possible if you don't have the urge to have every shiny new part on it. It won't be the best setup out there, but it's doable if you're willing to put some effort and work into it.
I'd say a 300rwhp setup could be had for $3.5-4k depending on deals and whatnot. Get some parts used and I don't see why $3k is out of the question... That's a whole bunch of money to modify a car if you have the drive to do it cheaply.
Yes spend less to get parts and beaterize your car, used turbo, used FMIC, yes it do-able. I question the reliability, but if funds are short...oh well.
300rwhp for $3.5-$4k is highly possible, but the motor will probably fall apart if its stock/aged, here comes the forged internals and strengthing the block etc ($$$)
How much are SR front clips going for nowadays? ~$3000? Throw in a PE1420 kit (shiny new parts) for abotu $1400, and you have a SR pushing 330-350HP.
The $ difference might be slight, but I'll leave it to "personal preference".
If you're going for 250 ish hp, then the pricing is similar b/w the twoIf you want around 300ish, then the KA MIGHT be more since you should at least change out the pistons (I'd do the rods, too since it's considered a bottle neck)IF you're wanting 400ish. . . well, it all depands on what rout you take. . . That being said, however, I'd like to point out the too often overlooked obvious. . . you KNOW (at least should know) what kind of condition your KA is in. you have absolutely no idea what kinda shape the SR is going to be in when you get it. (Expect, at least, to pay for a new oil pan.) When you factor in the "potential" $ that you "may" spend getting the SR to run right, the KA seems like a better choice for modest power levels. Of course, this does not apply to "gifted people" who are financially able to have their "new" motors torn down the second it's shipped to their door and start stuffing beefier internals.
I dont understand all these SR is better posts.Its because alot of people here what you say and go with the damn sr.Ka will handle plenty and for the parts to make a ka more powerfull than a sr is by far cheaper than the sr project.
sr $1500-$2500 ( not including wiring for the people who cant do this add a couple hundred)
KA parts needed
Turbo t3/t4 -$350 (rebuilt 0 miles on cartridge + new compressor housingInjectors - 370cc for $130 (EASY to find)BOV - HKS SSQV $200 shippedWastegate(SR WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THIS)- Tail 38mm $230Intercooler - Starion - $120 NPR - $220Fuel pump - Walburo 255 $100 everywhere on ebayFuel Filter - 300zx $50 maxPiping and flex pipe for exhaust + muffler 3" i say $400(better than sr) Piping $200 Flex 3x8" - $40 Muffler ( you guys might not like this but ive seen in on a flow bench and it increaced the cfm by 118cfm actuall pulling the exhaust out) Magnaflow 3"Now the MAF you can hack it for about $4 or safc for $300
As for the damn sr people saying that the motor cant handle much (rods-pistons-crank-block-head or what ever they say i know for usre that the drive train can handle 400hp pretty reasonable ive seen the 500+ hp 240 in az with stock drivetrain running 10.50's on street tires) you can find a cryo place to treat anything for cheap.Here in Az i fould a place to cryo anything for $3 a lb.Now lets add this up
$1980 and thats using the safc using the hacked saves alot.Also the npr no starion)Oh yeaH manifold JGS $250so for about $2000 your Set up very nicely
Now tell me how the sr is worth it Look at the parts i have used HIGH DOLLARbuy a damn 1g bov for $50 and save 150Why buy a sr keep it ka and you will love it MAKE IT A TORQUE MONSTA--
Anyways this should stur things up a bit .
i have a side project for a KA motor that will drastically cut the forged rod and piston thing in half gimmi a bit of time for that oh yeah youll also have 4 extra rods and pistons with this method
sr $1500-$2500 ( not including wiring for the people who cant do this add a couple hundred)
KA parts needed
Turbo t3/t4 -$350 (rebuilt 0 miles on cartridge + new compressor housingInjectors - 370cc for $130 (EASY to find)BOV - HKS SSQV $200 shippedWastegate(SR WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THIS)- Tail 38mm $230Intercooler - Starion - $120 NPR - $220Fuel pump - Walburo 255 $100 everywhere on ebayFuel Filter - 300zx $50 maxPiping and flex pipe for exhaust + muffler 3" i say $400(better than sr) Piping $200 Flex 3x8" - $40 Muffler ( you guys might not like this but ive seen in on a flow bench and it increaced the cfm by 118cfm actuall pulling the exhaust out) Magnaflow 3"Now the MAF you can hack it for about $4 or safc for $300
As for the damn sr people saying that the motor cant handle much (rods-pistons-crank-block-head or what ever they say i know for usre that the drive train can handle 400hp pretty reasonable ive seen the 500+ hp 240 in az with stock drivetrain running 10.50's on street tires) you can find a cryo place to treat anything for cheap.Here in Az i fould a place to cryo anything for $3 a lb.Now lets add this up
$1980 and thats using the safc using the hacked saves alot.Also the npr no starion)Oh yeaH manifold JGS $250so for about $2000 your Set up very nicely
Now tell me how the sr is worth it Look at the parts i have used HIGH DOLLARbuy a damn 1g bov for $50 and save 150Why buy a sr keep it ka and you will love it MAKE IT A TORQUE MONSTA--
Anyways this should stur things up a bit .
i have a side project for a KA motor that will drastically cut the forged rod and piston thing in half gimmi a bit of time for that oh yeah youll also have 4 extra rods and pistons with this method
Let's say you blow a block. Which would be cheaper, a KA with forged internals or an forged SR ? Plus, depending on high revs for go isn't what I want to look forward to in a race, or even in offramp catchups. I'd rather have the power there as soon as I hit the pedal. I can't bad mouth the SR because it's a bad motor, it's just the initial price/risk in getting one, and the fact that I can't just go to Autozone for parts. If it was in our cars when I got it, i'll route for it. But it just has a"JDM Honda engine swap" air about it now. Everybody has one!
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95hondakillr
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Ive got about 1400 in my ka24det with parts to reliably make around 300 hp if you have some common sense and a little know how its not expensive at all! It also helps to know a few people but thats besides the point anybody can build a turbo ka for cheap if they can do most of the work themselves. You dont really need to rebuild the ka in my opion if its in decent shape and has been taken care of, but pistons and rods for the ka are still cheaper than an sr20det hell you could even throw in a port and polish on the head and still come out cheaper. If you want more power out of the sr you still would have to upgrade injectors, turbo, fuel pump and then control the fuel so lets have some prices on that S3! Anyway a turboed KA would smoke your fatass heavyweight Z anyday (given the right boost) You say what if you ran the same amount of boost on the same size turbo or turbos, no the 240 wouldnt win. Why? There is no replacement for displacement. Period.
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95hondakillr
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Also the Ka has forged and shotpeened rods, forged crank, oil squirters to cool the pistons, and the only downfall is the ****ty pistons, but you will destroy any piston whether it be forged or not with detonation so IMO all the forged pistons are good for are as a safeguard from crappy tuning because they will take a few more "knocks" than a nonforged piston but it will eventually get the forged one to. So what is so big about having forged pistons if your running under 13-14 pounds of boost? Im running 14 on factory bottom end.
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95hondakillr
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offtheline
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There are a lot of good points in this thread. One thing that people don't mention too much in these threads is theft. (partially because it isn't a big deal yet in many parts of the country). The more SR's become popular, the more cars that have them will be targeted. I can guarantee that. Swapped honda's get stolen all the time for their motors.
Somehow I just don't see thieves going after KA-ts quite as much.
Somehow I just don't see thieves going after KA-ts quite as much.
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95hondakillr
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:26 pm
- Car: 240s
Im not trying to say the sr is a pice of junk its bottom end is practically bulletproof. What i am saying is consider your options with all of the above replies because for the same amount of money you can have a KA thats just as good if not better. Its all in what you want. So no disrespect to anyone just tired of seeing this discussion on which is better and the reason you see so many 400+ hp sr20s is because of the popularity aforementioned by offtheline. The KA is the redheaded step child to people who are not aware of its potential.