ok....
Well... For starters, my personal cars old setup made 399whp @ 1.3 bar on pump gas and bone stock motor (except cams). I have dyno sheets to prove it. This car was daily driven with no problems at all.
525 rear wheel hp on STOCK bottom end...http://www.store.yahoo.com/pha....html
and the list goes on and on....frankly, I don't care enough to track down more links. You might want to do some research before assuming something is false just because you have never seen it yourself. Believe it or not....it is quite attainable.
F1 is a true testament to engineering. It is simply amazing. However, have you ever looked into this small little organization called NHRA? Maybe you will find some surprising information about the "vette" you so easily dismissed. Compairing a Corvette to an F1 car is just retarded!
Just a couple interesting points:
* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes morehorsepower than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.* Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1½ gallons ofnitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the dragster supercharger.* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapour by the searing exhaust gases.* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder. Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After ½ way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track, the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light!* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load.* The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of therun (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective:You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot long race course.
Sorry for the lengthy responce but....you asked for it. :thumbup
pros/cons of going turbo KA or SR20?
Quote »The psysical length of the stroke on a KA is quite long (hense its 2.4L displacement). This will no doubt hinder its ability to rev high. Point well taken. But the rod is fairly long as well, keeping the rod:stroke ratio very close to ideal, which is a good thing when it comes to keeping side loads and piston speeds in check.[/quote]You've been spending far too much time around the Honda camp. Rod/stroke ratio is *NOT* that important of a factor in engine building. It has a small affect on how fast the piston will accelerate around TDC or BDC, and the sideloading of the piston to the cylinder bore is only slightly increased when going from two "close" numbers such as (1.7x to 1.5x).
The long stroke on the other hand has a linear increase in piston speed, so the KA stroke, which is some 15~20% longer than the SR's stroke(going from memory here) leads to much higher piston speeds and consequently, much higher loads on the connecting rods. A properly prepped KA could rev to 8-8.5k RPM, but I wouldn't do it on a daily basis, and I'd expect some VERY strong rods and well balanced bottom end to be able to do it more than a few times. BTW - connecting rod loading goes up with the SQUARE of RPM. This exponential relationship explains why it isn't all that hard to hit 6-7k RPM on a production engine, but anything 8+k RPM starts to require alot of work.
The long stroke on the other hand has a linear increase in piston speed, so the KA stroke, which is some 15~20% longer than the SR's stroke(going from memory here) leads to much higher piston speeds and consequently, much higher loads on the connecting rods. A properly prepped KA could rev to 8-8.5k RPM, but I wouldn't do it on a daily basis, and I'd expect some VERY strong rods and well balanced bottom end to be able to do it more than a few times. BTW - connecting rod loading goes up with the SQUARE of RPM. This exponential relationship explains why it isn't all that hard to hit 6-7k RPM on a production engine, but anything 8+k RPM starts to require alot of work.
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Touchdown038
- Posts: 1928
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- Car: Computers, cars, sports
- Contact:
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95hondakillr
- Posts: 256
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- Car: 240s
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Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
another couple of points:
1) I did NOT buy my motor because of all this jdm hype crap as everyone-without-a-sr always says.
2) You may think the SR valvetrane sucks, I think its fine. If I break a rocker arm, who cares, it wont break anything else. Its inherently fail-safe, ask movingviolation240, he broke one and his car still drove home, just 2 valves stayed shut. Replacing a rocker arm is easy as replacing a sparkplug if you have the right tools.
3)People take the SR past 8000rpms all the time, look at the dyno graphs of those 500+ hp cars with stock bottom ends, both enjuku's and phase2's SR20 stock bottom end cars live at 5500-8200rpm.
I hate these arguments, the bottom line is that the KA24 turbo is a yet another amazing option in the vast repertoire of nissan turbo motors us 240sx owners get to choose from.
1) I did NOT buy my motor because of all this jdm hype crap as everyone-without-a-sr always says.
2) You may think the SR valvetrane sucks, I think its fine. If I break a rocker arm, who cares, it wont break anything else. Its inherently fail-safe, ask movingviolation240, he broke one and his car still drove home, just 2 valves stayed shut. Replacing a rocker arm is easy as replacing a sparkplug if you have the right tools.
3)People take the SR past 8000rpms all the time, look at the dyno graphs of those 500+ hp cars with stock bottom ends, both enjuku's and phase2's SR20 stock bottom end cars live at 5500-8200rpm.
I hate these arguments, the bottom line is that the KA24 turbo is a yet another amazing option in the vast repertoire of nissan turbo motors us 240sx owners get to choose from.
I think maybe what this conversation really boils down to is the fact that neither party can embrace eachother. It seems to me if someone puts that they were working on a KA engine another person is going to come by and spout out that they should get a SR and stop fooling around with a truck engine.
But in all honesty its what you can make of nothing that derives respect. I say here and now as a Nissan enthusiast society that we openly embrace eachother. If someone decides on working off a KA or a SR or a CA. Then it should be more of a "Hey, buddy, whats hangin'?" "Hey, hows that SR project coming, I just got my KA turbo up and running!" "Really kudos to you! Hopefully both of our tunings will prove eventful."
This way slander is not in the conversation at all. A relative respect for each his own will prove more eventful then a discussion maybe on which engine is better. A mutual brotherhood and sisterhood would develop.
I have to say I am a owner of a KA and I was part of this debate but it just became relevant to me that this is nonsense. The only people who would fight about this correctly are engine smart people. As we have seen so far in this post. But just because a engine is JDM tyte or because a KA is going to be cheaper to find parts for (standard accesories) doesnt give any basis for an argument.
I say now! Embrace eachother in the inginuity of Nissan engineering. As a group we will derive and build enough power to rival other cars. Having a sleeper SR is great having a sleeper truck engine is great! Its not with ourselves we should be waring, its other ricer hondas or toyotas. We must come to a conclusion that as a group we are technologicaly and mechanically superior or are capable of being superior with the knowledge we are willing to share with eachother.
PLEASE this stops here!
I love you guys btw. Oh and girls.
But in all honesty its what you can make of nothing that derives respect. I say here and now as a Nissan enthusiast society that we openly embrace eachother. If someone decides on working off a KA or a SR or a CA. Then it should be more of a "Hey, buddy, whats hangin'?" "Hey, hows that SR project coming, I just got my KA turbo up and running!" "Really kudos to you! Hopefully both of our tunings will prove eventful."
This way slander is not in the conversation at all. A relative respect for each his own will prove more eventful then a discussion maybe on which engine is better. A mutual brotherhood and sisterhood would develop.
I have to say I am a owner of a KA and I was part of this debate but it just became relevant to me that this is nonsense. The only people who would fight about this correctly are engine smart people. As we have seen so far in this post. But just because a engine is JDM tyte or because a KA is going to be cheaper to find parts for (standard accesories) doesnt give any basis for an argument.
I say now! Embrace eachother in the inginuity of Nissan engineering. As a group we will derive and build enough power to rival other cars. Having a sleeper SR is great having a sleeper truck engine is great! Its not with ourselves we should be waring, its other ricer hondas or toyotas. We must come to a conclusion that as a group we are technologicaly and mechanically superior or are capable of being superior with the knowledge we are willing to share with eachother.
PLEASE this stops here!
I love you guys btw. Oh and girls.-
masticatingcow
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:39 am
- Car: 94 Mazda FD3S
*Stands up and without blinking, begins to clap*Clap.... clap... clap.. clap clap clap clap "woo!" clap "Yeah!" *whistles* thunderous applause.
I agree, we shouldn't degrade each other's work and accomplishments. For myself, however, I was honestly unaware that SRs could reliably hold 500 hp. If we didn't have such exchanges, calm or otherwise, no one would learn anything. I, for one, am grateful to J-Spec Tuner, Karay240 and AX75F92 for giving me not only new information, but also plently of proof to validate it. Thanks guys!
I agree, we shouldn't degrade each other's work and accomplishments. For myself, however, I was honestly unaware that SRs could reliably hold 500 hp. If we didn't have such exchanges, calm or otherwise, no one would learn anything. I, for one, am grateful to J-Spec Tuner, Karay240 and AX75F92 for giving me not only new information, but also plently of proof to validate it. Thanks guys!
J-Spec Tuner wrote:
movingviolation240 has a SR daily driven with 400ish hp on the stock bottom end with a GT25R.
It sure costs a lot to make a 300-400+hp anything , doesn't it.
just think-
GT25R - $775+ (rated at 240 hp by the way)turbo capable of 400hp - $1300+ GARRETT or $2400+ HKSnice FMIC - $800+ (side note -- <price of SR)nice piping kit - $300+injectors (550 or 740 sidefeed's) - $200+ eachcams ( not needed ) - $300 (each)ignition upgrade ( sparkplugs etc.) - +50+metal haedgasket - $150+fuel management - $600+countless dyno runs to get it right (hopefully) - $200+
Total starting cost about $5000. This is just a base list. Granted some items are going to cost more or less (probably more). So with that in mind , it's going to cost about $8000 or so , to make a pretty reliable stock block 400hp SR. Cheap!
Now on the other hand if it is true a Stock KA block can handle 400ish hp. You just saved yourself about $2500 (manifold). Good luck and happy choosing!!!
i am currently doing a sr s14 swap into an 92 s13. this will all be done by a profesional. car=3500, i want this as a daily driver, so it needed to be almost perfect, and i wanted it to be extremely clean all around, car=3500engine and swap=3500parts to go to 320hp=2700
this will all be tuned and my main concern is for reliabilty, so i shelled out the cash for the right ****. some of the plans are not final, mainly fule management.
with a ka i would have had to rebuild it for the reliability factor. and i guess i could have done that for 3500, but i wanted to be alittle different in the Midwest.
this will all be tuned and my main concern is for reliabilty, so i shelled out the cash for the right ****. some of the plans are not final, mainly fule management.
with a ka i would have had to rebuild it for the reliability factor. and i guess i could have done that for 3500, but i wanted to be alittle different in the Midwest.
masticatingcow wrote:Also, explain to be why F1 engines pump 700 horses out of 2.6 liter engines. Why isn't the 6 liter Vette able to push that kind of power? Isn't the mere existence of the F1 engine PROOF against what you say has been PROVEN?
As others have already pointed out, the engines were designed to serve different purposes. If you still don't get it, consider this: wouldn't you get more power out of an F1 engine that had twice the displacement? Now what can you do to the smaller engine to match the larger one? Nothing.
Oh, by the way I love the CA, SR, and KA, so I'm not siding with any of them.
Yea, that's kinda how I am, too. I'd have to take the CA's side, though. It's so underrated in the States. Even in Japan for that matter. Everyone (the public) thinks that it's outdated, and that the SRs are far more superior.
The only thing (the major thing, anyway) that is outdated about great motors of the "past" is the engine management system. This is probably going to sound a little odd to some, but the main limiting factor in older motors is the ECU. Whether it's motor with an outdated EFI system, or even machanical fuel injection (that's what I think the L series motor had around the moddle of its product life cycle...correct me if I'm wrong), if you tune it right with a standalone, it's not going to be a slouch, not unreliable.
The L series motor is alive and very well in the Japanese drag racing scene, due to it's amazing ability to produce torque. There are L series motors that have upwards of over 7-800hp from that "outdated" engine. Of course these motors don't have a single stock internal piece, but that't not the point. lol. (the point keeps changing as I'm typing)
The point is that it's far easier to get and set up a standalone with the CA or the SR than it it with the KA. I feel, due to the growing popularity, there will be prominent companies comming out with more stuff for the KA motors. I know that Greddy has the e-manage out for the S14, but it only makes sense that they'll come out with it for the S13 sooner or later.
The point is that unless you're willing to spend the money for a TechII or a III, I'd wait to build a KA motor with much over 300hp.
what point was I trying to make at the beginning of the post, anyway? Oh, yea, I think that If you're planning on keeping the stock ECU, get an SR, IF not, KA or CA.
The choice isn't really up to anyone on the Nico forums, but yourself.
I might go w/ the SR due to the parts availability etc, though. . . lol
kenny
The only thing (the major thing, anyway) that is outdated about great motors of the "past" is the engine management system. This is probably going to sound a little odd to some, but the main limiting factor in older motors is the ECU. Whether it's motor with an outdated EFI system, or even machanical fuel injection (that's what I think the L series motor had around the moddle of its product life cycle...correct me if I'm wrong), if you tune it right with a standalone, it's not going to be a slouch, not unreliable.
The L series motor is alive and very well in the Japanese drag racing scene, due to it's amazing ability to produce torque. There are L series motors that have upwards of over 7-800hp from that "outdated" engine. Of course these motors don't have a single stock internal piece, but that't not the point. lol. (the point keeps changing as I'm typing)
The point is that it's far easier to get and set up a standalone with the CA or the SR than it it with the KA. I feel, due to the growing popularity, there will be prominent companies comming out with more stuff for the KA motors. I know that Greddy has the e-manage out for the S14, but it only makes sense that they'll come out with it for the S13 sooner or later.
The point is that unless you're willing to spend the money for a TechII or a III, I'd wait to build a KA motor with much over 300hp.
what point was I trying to make at the beginning of the post, anyway? Oh, yea, I think that If you're planning on keeping the stock ECU, get an SR, IF not, KA or CA.
The choice isn't really up to anyone on the Nico forums, but yourself.
I might go w/ the SR due to the parts availability etc, though. . . lol
kenny
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
This is my own list for turboing my SOHC, and it shouldn’t vary much for a DOHC, since the only different part required is the shape of the manifold and IC piping (no extra costs either way).
FUEL/TIMING:Fuel Pump (recommended for KA-T AND SR, hence can technically be deducted from turbo price, since both will get it anyway)$100
Fuel Injectors (KA-T only but assume bigger size than SRs stock ones, since it's an upgrade, usually 440cc+)$150
SAFCII (controlling the fuel)$300
MSD Universal Adjustable Timing Module (timing retard)$100
Tuning (an hour at a local dyno, can be more depending where you go)$50
TURBINE/EXHAUSTTurbo (used, otherwise assume higher price and much better performance than stock SR turbo)$100
Manifold (assume access to some home made welding)$120
Exhaust, with DP+SP/Cat muffler (can be subtracted from both totals, since SR will require exhaust as well, same assumption as above about welding)$200
INTAKE:FMIC (used, still better than stock SR SMIC, for larger size assume higher cost)$70
FMIC piping (includes hose connectors, rings, and air filter)$135
BOV (used, better than stock plastic SR)$30
Home Depot style MBC$10
MISC LINES, GAUGES, CLUTCH, PLUGSOil Lines (includes turbo oil flanges and Tees)$50
Water Lines (includes turbo coolant flanges and Tees)$50
Gauges (oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, boost)$150
Clutch (can also be subtracted from both totals, since SR will require upgraded clutch as well)$300
Plugs$10
Total:$1925
Total with similar SR items subtracted (Fuel pump, exhaust and clutch):$1325
Total of getting an SR with transmission/ECU/harness:$2000
The differences in the first two totals mean that a BASIC cost of upgrading power will be $600, no matter which path you choose KA or SR, to which you should add the price of work, unless you do all the installations (not manufacturing) yourself.
If you disagree on some of the prices on the list, remember, they ARE attainable, but you will have to put some time and work into making it happen, because even though we assume we do our own work, not everyone has good access to welding, but you CAN get access to it, if you network a little and find some people who will do it for cheap, to justify the manifold/exhaust costs.This is a tentative list, it assumes that you're working with a KA in ok shape, or putting in a stock SR, and doing nothing to it except for clutch/fuel pump/exhaust which are reaquired out of mostly "solidifying" reasons (clutch wears fast, the SR injectors can use a better fuel pump, and you will need a DP to connect to stock ex-KA exhaust, so you may just do the rest as well, because if you don't then whoever is building the KA may also just make a DP, and be done with it, so cost is still the same).
I fully support the argument that cost is only one of the factors for choosing either one, but for a lot of us it is a very important factor, since the $ to HP ratio is what decides our goals for us in the end. I really liked someone’s quote who said a car can be cheap, fast, reliable, pick any two. You can have something reliable and fast, but it won’t be cheap. You can have something cheap and fast, but it won’t be reliable. You can have something cheap and reliable but it won’t be fast. You get the point.
I for my part am not bound by high HP goals, and I think the highest I would want to go for is around 300-350 WHP. That’s long term though, short term is 200 WHP and eventually 250 WHP. After this, if the KA doesn’t blow due to my inexperience with tuning (!), I know that in order to have a more or less happy engine at 300-350WHP it needs some rebuilds, especially if it’s a tired KA, with compression numbers that are not that great (sigh). A cam (SOHC remember), maybe some DIY port and polish, and new pistons rings would do the car some good at those levels. But those things can be done to an SR as well, just to err on the safe side. Again, I am not worried about the KA reliability, because a KA with around 50k miles on it can do just as well with it’s stock bottom end as an SR with similar mileage (and you usually get them with 30-40k), for even high HP numbers, and such a KA can be found for 500 shipped, or even less if you can get it in your area. So the only reason I would rebuild my KA is because it’s old. Then again, I have block with 70k miles on it that I got for free (that’s how cheap they can be), that has good compression numbers and which I wouldn’t be afraid to take to 350 WHP on stock bottom end. Yes, I can hear you yell “Not everyone can get free KAs!” Maybe. But I looked hard. And I’ve seen them go for 100 bucks for the block itself and 200 for the whole engine.
I guess I’m done rambling, and I hope that you guy see my point (as finance related as it is). As a final note, my setup will be approximately rated at 200-220WHP for that $1875 shown above. That’s pretty good for me, assuming I could go up to 250WHP by just upping the boost (from ~7psi to ~10psi), and getting the most out of that particular kit. Keep in mind that includes things that are usually not part of most kits, such as clutch and exhaust (2.5” in my case, can be 3” for same price), and things that SR owners also may invest in (I still count them as part of the KA-T cost because we cannot do without them) such as the SAFC, MBC, and MSD Timing Module.
Ok, now I’m done.
sil80
FUEL/TIMING:Fuel Pump (recommended for KA-T AND SR, hence can technically be deducted from turbo price, since both will get it anyway)$100
Fuel Injectors (KA-T only but assume bigger size than SRs stock ones, since it's an upgrade, usually 440cc+)$150
SAFCII (controlling the fuel)$300
MSD Universal Adjustable Timing Module (timing retard)$100
Tuning (an hour at a local dyno, can be more depending where you go)$50
TURBINE/EXHAUSTTurbo (used, otherwise assume higher price and much better performance than stock SR turbo)$100
Manifold (assume access to some home made welding)$120
Exhaust, with DP+SP/Cat muffler (can be subtracted from both totals, since SR will require exhaust as well, same assumption as above about welding)$200
INTAKE:FMIC (used, still better than stock SR SMIC, for larger size assume higher cost)$70
FMIC piping (includes hose connectors, rings, and air filter)$135
BOV (used, better than stock plastic SR)$30
Home Depot style MBC$10
MISC LINES, GAUGES, CLUTCH, PLUGSOil Lines (includes turbo oil flanges and Tees)$50
Water Lines (includes turbo coolant flanges and Tees)$50
Gauges (oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, boost)$150
Clutch (can also be subtracted from both totals, since SR will require upgraded clutch as well)$300
Plugs$10
Total:$1925
Total with similar SR items subtracted (Fuel pump, exhaust and clutch):$1325
Total of getting an SR with transmission/ECU/harness:$2000
The differences in the first two totals mean that a BASIC cost of upgrading power will be $600, no matter which path you choose KA or SR, to which you should add the price of work, unless you do all the installations (not manufacturing) yourself.
If you disagree on some of the prices on the list, remember, they ARE attainable, but you will have to put some time and work into making it happen, because even though we assume we do our own work, not everyone has good access to welding, but you CAN get access to it, if you network a little and find some people who will do it for cheap, to justify the manifold/exhaust costs.This is a tentative list, it assumes that you're working with a KA in ok shape, or putting in a stock SR, and doing nothing to it except for clutch/fuel pump/exhaust which are reaquired out of mostly "solidifying" reasons (clutch wears fast, the SR injectors can use a better fuel pump, and you will need a DP to connect to stock ex-KA exhaust, so you may just do the rest as well, because if you don't then whoever is building the KA may also just make a DP, and be done with it, so cost is still the same).
I fully support the argument that cost is only one of the factors for choosing either one, but for a lot of us it is a very important factor, since the $ to HP ratio is what decides our goals for us in the end. I really liked someone’s quote who said a car can be cheap, fast, reliable, pick any two. You can have something reliable and fast, but it won’t be cheap. You can have something cheap and fast, but it won’t be reliable. You can have something cheap and reliable but it won’t be fast. You get the point.
I for my part am not bound by high HP goals, and I think the highest I would want to go for is around 300-350 WHP. That’s long term though, short term is 200 WHP and eventually 250 WHP. After this, if the KA doesn’t blow due to my inexperience with tuning (!), I know that in order to have a more or less happy engine at 300-350WHP it needs some rebuilds, especially if it’s a tired KA, with compression numbers that are not that great (sigh). A cam (SOHC remember), maybe some DIY port and polish, and new pistons rings would do the car some good at those levels. But those things can be done to an SR as well, just to err on the safe side. Again, I am not worried about the KA reliability, because a KA with around 50k miles on it can do just as well with it’s stock bottom end as an SR with similar mileage (and you usually get them with 30-40k), for even high HP numbers, and such a KA can be found for 500 shipped, or even less if you can get it in your area. So the only reason I would rebuild my KA is because it’s old. Then again, I have block with 70k miles on it that I got for free (that’s how cheap they can be), that has good compression numbers and which I wouldn’t be afraid to take to 350 WHP on stock bottom end. Yes, I can hear you yell “Not everyone can get free KAs!” Maybe. But I looked hard. And I’ve seen them go for 100 bucks for the block itself and 200 for the whole engine.
I guess I’m done rambling, and I hope that you guy see my point (as finance related as it is). As a final note, my setup will be approximately rated at 200-220WHP for that $1875 shown above. That’s pretty good for me, assuming I could go up to 250WHP by just upping the boost (from ~7psi to ~10psi), and getting the most out of that particular kit. Keep in mind that includes things that are usually not part of most kits, such as clutch and exhaust (2.5” in my case, can be 3” for same price), and things that SR owners also may invest in (I still count them as part of the KA-T cost because we cannot do without them) such as the SAFC, MBC, and MSD Timing Module.
Ok, now I’m done.
sil80
AX75F92 wrote:FMIC - $70... yeah.No tuning either? Very nice.
Better add a couple bottles of Extra Strength Tylenol to your list cuz that build up is gonna be fantabulistic.
My advice, do it right the first time and save your self the headache. OR find out for yourself...
Gheeeeeeeeeto!
1) No tuning? (Kaboom)
2) Advils are better
3) I agree, I would not ghetto fab a turbo kit out of used parts.
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
AX75F92: You seem a little unknowledgeable about this.
Tuning is needed for both motors to achieve 220whp safely (just upping the boost on the SR can be catastrophic if you don't have fuel management to correct for different weather patterns), but if you really want, then sure include a few dyno runs at 50 bucks(AFC and MSD tuning) and add that to the KA list only, though I'd add it to both. And yes, those few runs will be more than enough for me to make the 220whp safely. It's been done in front of my eyes before with similar "ghetto" setups (I modified the above list to include it). The FMIC I got is a pretty large (for the price) stock IC off of a Ford Thunderbird, its core measures something like 14x10x2.5, which is pretty damn good for what it is.
The used parts I have in my setup are: Turbo, FMIC, and injectors (which have been cleaned, balanced and blue printed, and that is included in their price above). Everything else is new and custom made. The turbo is in really good shape (minimal play), it should last some tens of thousands of miles, and it sure does for the RX-7 guys (it's off of a low mileage FC). The FMIC can't really break, and is in good shape, almost no bent fins and has been pressure tested to over 20 psi (which is beyond my goal anyway). The injectors should also hold up just fine, lots of people "re-fresh" their injectors, and they work well for them.
So what exactly is ghetto? That I use non-common parts and prices? That none of my stuff say "Greddy" on it? That you don't think you could pull off the same amount of power and reliability for my price? I am going safe about this. I am no planning on boosting 10psi off the bat, will be going with rather safe A/F ratios and conservative timing.
Have you done any turboing yourself? Have you experienced problems with home made setups? Were you smart about it? There is a thread on the KA-T board right now about someone who blew their motor. Why? Not because his setup sucked, but because he decided to take off the wastegate hose. No offense to them, but that's not smart. And he learned from it. But again, it wasn't the fault of any of his parts. Just the users’. "Doing it right" doesn't mean getting the most famous brands and newest parts and most expensive kits. Maybe to you it does. To me it means learning about what you're doing and making the best of what you have. My mistakes won't cost me much, should I make any, which is why my setup is the best for me. But it could be good for anyone else with similar goals and ambitions.
sil80
Tuning is needed for both motors to achieve 220whp safely (just upping the boost on the SR can be catastrophic if you don't have fuel management to correct for different weather patterns), but if you really want, then sure include a few dyno runs at 50 bucks(AFC and MSD tuning) and add that to the KA list only, though I'd add it to both. And yes, those few runs will be more than enough for me to make the 220whp safely. It's been done in front of my eyes before with similar "ghetto" setups (I modified the above list to include it). The FMIC I got is a pretty large (for the price) stock IC off of a Ford Thunderbird, its core measures something like 14x10x2.5, which is pretty damn good for what it is.
The used parts I have in my setup are: Turbo, FMIC, and injectors (which have been cleaned, balanced and blue printed, and that is included in their price above). Everything else is new and custom made. The turbo is in really good shape (minimal play), it should last some tens of thousands of miles, and it sure does for the RX-7 guys (it's off of a low mileage FC). The FMIC can't really break, and is in good shape, almost no bent fins and has been pressure tested to over 20 psi (which is beyond my goal anyway). The injectors should also hold up just fine, lots of people "re-fresh" their injectors, and they work well for them.
So what exactly is ghetto? That I use non-common parts and prices? That none of my stuff say "Greddy" on it? That you don't think you could pull off the same amount of power and reliability for my price? I am going safe about this. I am no planning on boosting 10psi off the bat, will be going with rather safe A/F ratios and conservative timing.
Have you done any turboing yourself? Have you experienced problems with home made setups? Were you smart about it? There is a thread on the KA-T board right now about someone who blew their motor. Why? Not because his setup sucked, but because he decided to take off the wastegate hose. No offense to them, but that's not smart. And he learned from it. But again, it wasn't the fault of any of his parts. Just the users’. "Doing it right" doesn't mean getting the most famous brands and newest parts and most expensive kits. Maybe to you it does. To me it means learning about what you're doing and making the best of what you have. My mistakes won't cost me much, should I make any, which is why my setup is the best for me. But it could be good for anyone else with similar goals and ambitions.
sil80
Tuning is needed for both motors to achieve 220whp safely (just upping the boost on the SR can be catastrophic if you don't have fuel management to correct for different weather patterns),
Yes indeed. Your are absolutely correct... tuning is needed. Tuning is your friend. But really, the last reason you should be hitting the dyno is for "weather patterns". Do you re-tune every time you hear a storm coming in?
So what exactly is ghetto?
Apparently... you, your car, and your style.
Have you done any turboing yourself? Have you experienced problems with home made setups?
No. I have never gone "turboing". Is this anything like water skiing? I haven't busted home made performance mods since I graduated high school and started learning about this paper called a pay check. Ahhhh, how I long to return to the days of the Home Depot dryer ducting cold air intake and aquarium pump boost controller... wait, no I don't... that sh*t sucked!
But seriously, I really do hope it turns out well for you. But either way you look at it, it will be a "half a*s" car. No body can tell you the how to build your car, nor should they try. Some people (you might know some) don't mind driving around a half *** car at all. Its all just personal preference. Being a fellow Nissan fan, I hope everything turns out great for you.
Be careful. Good luck.
I hope I don't see any "My weird, pieced together 240 is running kinda weird" threads in the near future.
Yes indeed. Your are absolutely correct... tuning is needed. Tuning is your friend. But really, the last reason you should be hitting the dyno is for "weather patterns". Do you re-tune every time you hear a storm coming in?
So what exactly is ghetto?
Apparently... you, your car, and your style.
Have you done any turboing yourself? Have you experienced problems with home made setups?
No. I have never gone "turboing". Is this anything like water skiing? I haven't busted home made performance mods since I graduated high school and started learning about this paper called a pay check. Ahhhh, how I long to return to the days of the Home Depot dryer ducting cold air intake and aquarium pump boost controller... wait, no I don't... that sh*t sucked!
But seriously, I really do hope it turns out well for you. But either way you look at it, it will be a "half a*s" car. No body can tell you the how to build your car, nor should they try. Some people (you might know some) don't mind driving around a half *** car at all. Its all just personal preference. Being a fellow Nissan fan, I hope everything turns out great for you.
Be careful. Good luck.
I hope I don't see any "My weird, pieced together 240 is running kinda weird" threads in the near future.
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
masticatingcow wrote:Also, explain to be why F1 engines pump 700 horses out of 2.6 liter engines. Why isn't the 6 liter Vette able to push that kind of power? Isn't the mere existence of the F1 engine PROOF against what you say has been PROVEN?
The simplest answer to this question is compromise. The engineering and maintenance involved in a 18,000 RPM motor is tedious and expensive. And have you ever heard a F1 motor in person. As cool as it is, I could not bear listening to that much screaming of anything day to day. F1 motors are built to last one race. They are rebuilt after every race. F1 Motors alone will cost much more than a Vette. Certainly, 700 Hp out of a vette can be done reliably, but it all costs money. Not everyone has it. In order for GM to make money someone has to be able to afford what they sell. So they must compromise.
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
AX75F92 wrote:So what exactly is ghetto?
Apparently... you, your car, and your style.
Just because it's not your way does not mean it won't work or that it's ghetto. Using all brand new parts can still lead to the same problems you might run into using used parts. Throwing money at a car to make t fast is easy. Throwing your time, and hard work into it takes much more effort. Lets not be so judgemental.
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
AX75F92, you're right I like tinkering with the 240, and do my own work instead of bragging that "this shop did MY car for me." If someone put all the work into my car, turboing it from A to Z (for ungodly amounts of money from the"paycheck") I couldn't justify calling it my own achievement. All I would have done is given someone some cash. I like doing stuff to my car myself. Probably partly because I can't afford having someone else do it. But also because I liek the feeling of having modified it and then having it work (even after many mistakes).
When I said weather I meant winter. If you tune your car to run at 12.5-13 A/F ratios in the summer, happy that you've extracted the last bits of power from it and are still running kinda on the safe side, and then one cold October morning the temp goes down to 30 deg fahrenheit, that's at LEAST an additional 1 point to add to the AFR. Suddently you're at 13.5-14, getting hard onthe gas and BANG! You've leaned out and... well, it's time for a new SR... or KA. This is why I like the SAFCII (as much as I would prefer a standalone): I can have TWO maps running on it, one more richer for those exact conditions I've described earlier, and one just a normal safe map (still not as lean as 13, even if that's not too bad on a piston engine). Do you see what I'm saying? Also, "My weird, pieced together 240 is running kinda weird" threads atre why I'm here. I think most people are. Greddy or not, we all have our problems. Otherwise it just wouldn't be fun (not that I don't like it when things go smooth, but then again, why not buy a stock turbo car... what would I be doing in the KA-T section anyway, if I had enough money for a stock turbo car? Well I love the 240 for once. And I like working with it)
sil80
edit: thanks c-qwik, still I think he is an all right guy, just with a different opinion. nice to get a little support tho
When I said weather I meant winter. If you tune your car to run at 12.5-13 A/F ratios in the summer, happy that you've extracted the last bits of power from it and are still running kinda on the safe side, and then one cold October morning the temp goes down to 30 deg fahrenheit, that's at LEAST an additional 1 point to add to the AFR. Suddently you're at 13.5-14, getting hard onthe gas and BANG! You've leaned out and... well, it's time for a new SR... or KA. This is why I like the SAFCII (as much as I would prefer a standalone): I can have TWO maps running on it, one more richer for those exact conditions I've described earlier, and one just a normal safe map (still not as lean as 13, even if that's not too bad on a piston engine). Do you see what I'm saying? Also, "My weird, pieced together 240 is running kinda weird" threads atre why I'm here. I think most people are. Greddy or not, we all have our problems. Otherwise it just wouldn't be fun (not that I don't like it when things go smooth, but then again, why not buy a stock turbo car... what would I be doing in the KA-T section anyway, if I had enough money for a stock turbo car? Well I love the 240 for once. And I like working with it)
sil80
edit: thanks c-qwik, still I think he is an all right guy, just with a different opinion. nice to get a little support tho