Profiling

[stebo0728]

Ok here is something that has been itching me lately. Profiling. What in the world is so reprehensible about profiling? I offer the following example (not my own handiwork, heard it on the radio, Neal Boortz)

Lets say 2 obese, chinese, women decide to rob a bank. How can the police reasonably be expected to find the perpetrators? The cant say they were chinese, thats racial profiling, they cant say they were women, thats gender profiling, and they cant say they were obese, hell thats insensitive too. Police troll around looking for 2 people that robbed a bank, 2 people thats all we can say, have you seen them?

Profiling is a perfectly reasonable tool, and should be used at any chance. 90% of terrorism is caused by Islamic terrorists, which by the way, the media refuses to refer to them properly, they are muslim terrorists, we are at war with radical islam, plain and simple. So whats so alien about the idea of looking a little extra carefully at people with islamic background, whether racially or religiously. If a tall black man robs a bank, stop questioning white guys. People have fallen so in love with political correctness, and it will be our undoing.

[topFlight_Nissan]

people profile all the time because it's necessary.. they just don't admit to doing so because it's looked down upon. sorry but I don't agree with that example one bit. in the real world, the cops WOULD profile. i think the wiser part of the population can overlook the fact that it's immoral and do what's necessary. the end always justifies the means.

[AZhitman]

You kinda missed the definition of "profiling".

In your examples, the crime has already been committed, and the perp's physical characteristics are being used to describe them. Not profiling, and perfectly appropriate.

Racial profiling is the the use by law enforcement personnel of an individual’s race or ethnicity as a factor in articulating reasonable suspicion to stop, question or arrest an individual, UNLESS race or ethnicity is part of an identifying description of a specific suspect for a specific crime.

The problem is this: Profiling works. It's a statistically supported, perfectly valid tool if used properly. However, it's not "politically correct".

Therein lies the problem. Competing interests, neither of which is interested in hearing the other side's POV.

[srellim234]

The biggest problem is that profiling is abused by cops often and all over the country. The kind of profiling cited in this story still occurs, albeit less often and kept more quietly to themselves in law enforcement agencies these days. Profiling should allow you to keep an eye on someone but you still need legitimate probable cause to detain.

http://www.counterpunch.org/drivingblack.html

There is middle ground on the issue and officers who step over the line need to be educated and/or removed from their positions.

[topFlight_Nissan]

The biggest problem is that profiling is abused by cops often and all over the country. The kind of profiling cited in this story still occurs, albeit less often and kept more quietly to themselves in law enforcement agencies these days. Profiling should allow you to keep an eye on someone but you still need legitimate probable cause to detain.

http://www.counterpunch.org/drivingblack.html

There is middle ground on the issue and officers who step over the line need to be educated and/or removed from their positions.

there's 'middle ground' on every thing in this country thats how we survive despite all the ignorant laws that make the average american happy.

[IBCoupe]

Profiling works. It's a statistically supported, perfectly valid tool if used properly. However, it's not "politically correct".

Support?

I've always read that appearance profiling is ineffective and sometimes counterproductive, whereas behavioral profiling is highly effective.

Behavioral profiling at work here.

The main flaw with profiling comes when the target of the profiling becomes aware that it is going on, regardless of the type of profiling that's being done. Racial profiling relies on certain physical characteristics of the type of person expected to be committing a crime - in order to get around this, one need only bleach or dye their hair, shave, and learn to speak with a local accent (the 9/11 hijackers were wearing suits, remember?). Behavioral profiling relies on certain activities characteristic of a person who is planning to commit or is in the process of committing a crime -in order to get around this, one usually needs to significantly alter their behavior, which makes doing the actual crime a lot harder.

This is what Israeli airports do, and this is what law enforcement should be trained to do. For every unnecessary stop of a law-abiding but scruffy-looking civilian, we've got a a situation where a cop is busy not looking for someone who isn't law-abiding.

[AZhitman]

Profiling works. It's a statistically supported, perfectly valid tool if used properly. However, it's not "politically correct".

Behavioral profiling at work here.

This is what Israeli airports do, and this is what law enforcement should be trained to do.

If you think the Israeli airport processes somehow exclude racial /ethnic profiling from the top of the continuum of areas of assessment, you'd be sorely mistaken.

I can be all overly simplistic and Limbaugh / Beck-ish here, but that'd only dilute my point. I did a lot of research on this topic while working on my Masters in Criminal Justice Admin, and while the Israelis HAVE taken post-9/11 profiling to a higher plane (no pun intended), racial / ethnic considerations remain high in the checklist.

Here's a study that looks at nearly 30 years of Israeli aviation counter terrorism efforts...

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p200459_index.html

Yes, they're masters of the process - They've HAD to be. But to think they've magically removed racial / ethnic characteristics from their profiling checklist would be delusional at best.

[IBCoupe]

Even if behavioral profiling is incorporated, doesn't the fact that it isn't used alone cut to the heart of the "STOP SEARCHING MY 93-YEAR-OLD GRANDMA" argument?

[stebo0728]

Heres the reality, profiling, of any and every kind should be employed BUT should not be publicized. Publication of profiling standards only leads to indication of your security holes. If you say "STOP SEARCHING MY 93-YEAR-OLD GRANDMA" then terrorlst will start searching for 93 year old grandmas to try and sneak their contraband through. You cant telegraph what your looking for, if you do then the bad guys definitely wont look like what your looking for....

[IBCoupe]

Alternatively, you search everyone trying to get on a plane. That's why it takes 4 hours to get through Israeli security.

[AZhitman]

Even if behavioral profiling is incorporated, doesn't the fact that it isn't used alone cut to the heart of the "STOP SEARCHING MY 93-YEAR-OLD GRANDMA" argument?

I think you lost me.

To respond to what Stebo says I'd recommend we go one HUGE step further: Be transparent.

TELL travelers who "match the profile" WHY you're scrutinizing them more closely. Explain that it's for your safety and theirs. Be open and honest when you tell them WHY you're closely scrutinizing a one-way ticket from Detroit to L.A., bought by a briefcase-toting college student named Al-Shabeeb, who checked no bags and paid with cash.

It's been a basic tenet of community policing for decades, and it works. It's less adversarial, garners mutual respect, reduces defensiveness, and humanizes the process.

Some people will be "offended" no matter what. Those people can stay the hell off airplanes. None of the Middle Easterners I know would have a problem with a couple extra minute delay, as long as it's done respectfully and openly.

This doesn't mean granny gets a free pass to circumvent the metal detector and sniffer, of course...

[IBCoupe]

You might be the exception, AZ, but what I meant was that every time I hear calls for racial profiling, it's from some ignorant coworker or some half-wit comedian saying, "Why are they searching the 92-year-old grannies? Why are they searching infant strollers? We know what the bad guys look like!"

That's the dangerous kind of racial profiling - the kind that is done instead of behavioral profiling. In all reality, shouldn't successful racial profiling produce the same results that behavioral profiling ought to, if done correctly?

[AZhitman]

Agreed. I'm not that guy.

However, one must be cautious - there's *some* truth in those inane comments, and a VERY fine line between the two types of profiling. Oftentimes, race / gender / heritage bleeds over into behavior (especially when you really get down deep in analyzing behaviors and mannerisms).

Ideally, they should be used in conjunction (not *just* one or the other).

[WDRacing]

Race, color and creed should be used while profiling because it works, fact. It shouldn't be the only method used and everyone in the position to profile people should be ever vigilant. There is no "dangerous" profiling, there is only profiling.

[topFlight_Nissan]

dude the people who fricken bombed the twin towers did it out of their religion. no sh*t we're going to profile anyone who supports that religion or comes from a place that supports that religion. not doing so would be completely naive. I'm not sure what the situation in the airports are right now, but if it were up to me, after 9/11, ALL people of that skin color should be profiled. That was some f*cked up sh*t they did on 9/11. It's like if the KKK murdered 10 black people and the cops were like "just cuz they are wearing white dome hoods does not mean that they could be associated". hello??
and i'm so glad that law enforcement bends the rules of profiling, because without it we'd be screwed.

[IBCoupe]

They also wore suits and ties, topFlight. You going to require people to fill out an affidavit of their chosen religion and put them to a polygraph to prove its veracity?

[stebo0728]

Just offer them a BLT, if they refuse, question them further.

[AZhitman]

Just offer them a McRib, if they refuse, question them further.

FTFY.

[stebo0728]

Found this interesting.

1. IN 1968 , BOBBY KENNEbby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
A. Superman?
B. Jay Leno?
C. Harry Potter?
D. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
A. Lindsey Lohan?
B. Sitting Bull?
C. Arnold Schwarzenegger?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
A. Lost Norwegians?
B. Drunken Frat Boys?
C. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

4. During the 1980's, a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
A. John Dillinger?
B. The King of Sweden ?
C. The Boy Scouts?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
A. A pizza delivery boy?
B. Pete Rose?
C. Geraldo Rivera?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 --> bingo

6. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
A. Alex Rodriguez?
B. Davy Jones?
C. The Little Mermaid?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

7. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
A. Captain Kidd?
B. Charles Lindburg?
C. Mother Teresa?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
A. Scooby Doo?
B. Joe Montana?
C. Snoop Dogg?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

9. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
A. Richard Simmons?
B. Ron Artest?
C. Michael Jordan?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
A. Mike Wallace?
B. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems?
C. The World Wrestling Federation?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
A. Terell Owens?
B. The Supreme Court of Florida ?
C. Mr. Bean?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

12. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
A. Enron?
B. The Lutheran Church ?
C. The NFL?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

13. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
A. Bonnie and Clyde ?
B. Captain Kangaroo?
C. Billy Graham?
D. Muslim male extremist s mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

14. 2004 - Spain Railway bombings:
A. The Pittsburg Pirates?
B. Donald Trump?
C. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

AND BINGO WAS THEIR NAME, AND NOW--> bingo again......

15. 2005 - London Railway bombings:
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

16. 2006 - Liquid explosives to blow up 10-20 commercial air liners in-flight:
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

>>> Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winning and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone because of profiling.

[wingFeather]

LOL why am I not surprised that IB is against this?

If I want to look like Charles Manson & start a cult I should be allowed (and I'm sure IB agrees). I should be able to wear a trench coat in the middle of summer, and tuck my baseball bats inside it (hey, they are for my practice game that I'm walking to) and wear a gang symbol (I just happen to appreciate the creativity & sociological significance). Phuk tha poleeze!

[vikesfankevin1986]

Awww if people don't like it, go cry about it. When I was stationed in Germany there were clubs they wouldn't let me into because I was American. When the Germany police see American license plates they pull you over (because they don't need a reason) just to see if you have been drinking. If you clothes were too baggy you couldn't get in to some clubs. We didn't protest or b**** about it. You know why? Because it's not my damn country and those are their laws. If you don't like it, don't live there. They pulled me over to see if I had been drinking...I had not been...a few minutes later they let me go. I know I know, that's 5 minutes of my life that I will never get back...get over it. For some reason Americans think they are something f*** special and that they are God's gift to this earth. Don't believe me? Listen to Americans. Go to another country...I bet you can pick out 90% of Americans at any club. Then Americans claim that America is the best country in the world. Based on what? Have you been to every other country in the world? Have you even been to one other country in this world? If the answer is no, that opinion is flawed. I can't say fruit loops is the best cereal in the world if I have never had any other kind of cereal.
This country IS safer because of profiling. If you feel so violated that they took an extra 5-10 minutes of your life, leave. Go live in the Middle East.

[IBCoupe]

This country IS safer because of profiling.

Prove it.

[vikesfankevin1986]

This country IS safer because of profiling.

Prove it.

1. IN 1968 , BOBBY KENNEbby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
A. Superman?
B. Jay Leno?
C. Harry Potter?
D. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

2. In 1972, at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
A. Lindsey Lohan?
B. Sitting Bull?
C. Arnold Schwarzenegger?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
A. Lost Norwegians?
B. Drunken Frat Boys?
C. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

4. During the 1980's, a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
A. John Dillinger?
B. The King of Sweden ?
C. The Boy Scouts?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
A. A pizza delivery boy?
B. Pete Rose?
C. Geraldo Rivera?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 --> bingo

6. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
A. Alex Rodriguez?
B. Davy Jones?
C. The Little Mermaid?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

7. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
A. Captain Kidd?
B. Charles Lindburg?
C. Mother Teresa?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
A. Scooby Doo?
B. Joe Montana?
C. Snoop Dogg?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

9. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
A. Richard Simmons?
B. Ron Artest?
C. Michael Jordan?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
A. Mike Wallace?
B. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems?
C. The World Wrestling Federation?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
A. Terell Owens?
B. The Supreme Court of Florida ?
C. Mr. Bean?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

12. In 2002, the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
A. Enron?
B. The Lutheran Church ?
C. The NFL?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

13. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
A. Bonnie and Clyde ?
B. Captain Kangaroo?
C. Billy Graham?
D. Muslim male extremist s mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

14. 2004 - Spain Railway bombings:
A. The Pittsburg Pirates?
B. Donald Trump?
C. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid?
D. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40--> bingo

AND BINGO WAS THEIR NAME, AND NOW--> bingo again......

15. 2005 - London Railway bombings:
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

16. 2006 - Liquid explosives to blow up 10-20 commercial air liners in-flight:
Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40


Either way...get over yourself. You're not special. Let someone inconvenience you for a few minutes to ENSURE people are safe. If MOST terrorlst attacks were done by men that were my age, with blond hair, blue eyes and of Danish desent, I would have no problem with someone searching me. You know why? Because I have nothing to hide. I have proof I'm here legally, I don't have drugs on me, I don't have a weapon on me. I am not that selfish that I can't give up 5 minutes of my life to make this country safer.

From a quick google search...
Two of the world’s most stupid Islamic terrorists were stopped at Kennedy Airport last Saturday while attempting to fly to Somalia and join fellow jihadist militants there.

An attempted terrorlst attack on a Christmas Day flight began with a pop and a puff of smoke — sending passengers scrambling to subdue a Nigerian man who claimed to be acting on orders from al-Qaeda to blow up the airliner, officials and travelers said.

The arrest of Faisal Shahzad, the man who allegedly drove a car bomb into Times Square Sunday, was nabbed courtesy of some tech-aided sleuthing.

How can you say that searching every Muslim would not make this country safer? Can you send me a link of some blond hair, blue eye terrorlst so I can read about them? How about some women? Hell how about just some white people. If they feel so violated LEAVE. No one is FORCING you to live here. If you don't like our laws, move to Canada. If I didn't like Germany's laws would I move there? No.

[IBCoupe]

From the looks of that list, profiling's not doing a thing. Isn't it funny how statistics that try to predict hypotheticals do a cruddy job at it?

Kennedy Airport: Weren't the guys Somali? From Minnesota? Should we stop all African Americans headed to Africa?
Christmas Day: You mean they responded to a non-Arab when he did something crazy? What does this say about profiling?
Shahzad: Was caught as the result of good investigatory work after the fact. What does this say about profiling?

What does a Muslim look like?

[vikesfankevin1986]

Guys from Kennedy Airport
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2010/ ... lmonte.jpg

Christmas Day
http://blogs.rnw.nl/vredeenveiligheid/f ... tallab.jpg
a Nigerian man who claimed to be acting on orders from al-Qaeda to blow up the airliner, officials and travelers said.
Time Square
http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/07 ... 00x300.jpg

For having never seen their pictures before I think I did pretty well on that. Ok the Nigerian man doesn't fit, arguably the Time Square guy doesn't...

Well you can't always tell what a Muslim looks like but around 90% of Arabs are Muslim...so search the Arabs?

You still didn't tell me why taking 5 minutes out of someones life to search them is SOOOO bad. You didn't show me a blond hair, blue eye terrorlst. You only responded to one of my points. And yes valid about what a Muslim looks like. Once again, if you don't have 5 minutes to be searched, leave.

But hey you're right. Maybe we shouldn't search anyone. We shouldn't profile anyone. Lets take away all the security at airports and just trust people.

[stebo0728]

Vikes I agree with you somewhat but you have to be careful. If you openly suggest that you will be only searching arabs, and that old ladies in scooters get a pass, it wont be long before you see a train station blow up by a bomb placed in the scooter of an old lady. You cant telegraph your moves, do it no doubt, but you cant let the enemy know how you are going to behave so that they can plan for it. Make sense?

Same issue with placing mindless timetables on military actions.

[IBCoupe]

Right. Searching everyone is a much better policy. Even if you don't explicitly broadcast your methods, over time they'll be spotted. You'll get sympathizers from European countries. You'll get Asian sympathizers. You'll get Middle-Eastern sympathizers who shave and dye their hair, and put on suits. Not only are there those practical implications, which Stebo was kind enough to bring up, but there are Constitutional issues. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments come to mind.

[stebo0728]

Right. Searching everyone is a much better policy. Even if you don't explicitly broadcast your methods, over time they'll be spotted. You'll get sympathizers from European countries. You'll get Asian sympathizers. You'll get Middle-Eastern sympathizers who shave and dye their hair, and put on suits. Not only are there those practical implications, which Stebo was kind enough to bring up, but there are Constitutional issues. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments come to mind.

Dont forget plastic surgery ... have you seen "Face Off" ... you know thats do-able

[IBCoupe]

It would be horrible if Nicholas Cage got through airport security unmolested. An absolute tragedy would be incurred.

[stebo0728]

Right. Searching everyone is a much better policy. Even if you don't explicitly broadcast your methods, over time they'll be spotted. You'll get sympathizers from European countries. You'll get Asian sympathizers. You'll get Middle-Eastern sympathizers who shave and dye their hair, and put on suits. Not only are there those practical implications, which Stebo was kind enough to bring up, but there are Constitutional issues. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments come to mind.

And I can consider searching everyone as an acceptable policy if, AND ONLY IF - there are not instances where the very profile of perpetrators begins to be ignored for "political correctness"