Profiling

[vikesfankevin1986]

Ok I got a little carried away. You are right in that you can't just search Arabs and no one else. I just don't see a problem with searching MORE Arabs than old ladies because yea you could stick a bomb on an old lady. But you need to look at trends. Our country and this world is evolving constantly. Ways of life, laws, constitutions, ect will need to constantly change to keep up with the new world. You can't expect stuff written hundreds of years ago to apply to things today, hell some things from a few years ago don't apply any more. We need to constantly change to keep up with the times. IF Arabs are more of a threat to public safety, that needs to be adressed. It would be the same if Canadians some day became a problem.

[IBCoupe]

I think it should be ignored for "constitutionality."

The government judges people by their actions, not by their appearance.

And if you're searching everyone, without exception, the profile doesn't matter.

[stebo0728]

Ok I got a little carried away. You are right in that you can't just search Arabs and no one else. I just don't see a problem with searching MORE Arabs than old ladies because yea you could stick a bomb on an old lady. But you need to look at trends. Our country and this world is evolving constantly. Ways of life, laws, constitutions, ect will need to constantly change to keep up with the new world. You can't expect stuff written hundreds of years ago to apply to things today, hell some things from a few years ago don't apply any more. We need to constantly change to keep up with the times. IF Arabs are more of a threat to public safety, that needs to be adressed. It would be the same if Canadians some day became a problem.

Circumstances change, concepts do not. Human nature does not. The basis of our founding was of conceptual nature, not circumstantial. Its my belief that the originating design of our nation was crafted with wisdom, and without getting all religious, I believe it was a blessed forging. Im not saying laws of specified nature arent subject to change, but generalized principles should stick, principles such as balances of power, checks and balances, oversight on each level, governance at the lowest level possible, rule of law over rule of mob. Those type of ideals are eternal.

[AZhitman]

Not only are they eternal ideals, but they give nod to the fact that there exists a universal "right and wrong" which most rational people would confirm. Despite the bleatings of a misguided few, the inability of many to fully grasp this concept, and the glacially slow progress of change, it will be borne out - its gravity overwhelms even the most passionate and eloquent objections.

[UpStar]

Ok here is something that has been itching me lately. Profiling. What in the world is so reprehensible about profiling?

Do you mean racial profiling?

Here is the problem:

Racial profiling refers to the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest). The practice is controversial and widely considered inappropriate and illegal. <---note: the bold & underlined text.

Unil racial profiling happnens to you...its not a problem! If you are white with a shaved head or Jamaican with dreads .....

[WDRacing]

Ok here is something that has been itching me lately. Profiling. What in the world is so reprehensible about profiling?

Do you mean racial profiling?

Here is the problem:

Racial profiling refers to the use of an individual’s race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel as a key factor in deciding whether to engage in enforcement (e.g. make a traffic stop or arrest). The practice is controversial and widely considered inappropriate and illegal. <---note: the bold & underlined text.

Unil racial profiling happnens to you...its not a problem! If you are white with a shaved head or Jamaican with dreads .....

Until Black/Mexican/other non-whites pop their head out of their a** and realize that resembling a friggin criminal will bring unwanted attention profiling will always be around. Profiling works and should be used daily by law enforcement.

Don't wanna be harassed? Pull your pants up, don't hang around street corners...try to fit in or gtfo.

[IBCoupe]

Also, lose that tan, darkie!

[WDRacing]

Nice...I needed a belly laugh today.

[UpStar]

Until Black/Mexican/other non-whites pop their head out of their a** and realize that resembling a friggin criminal will bring unwanted attention profiling will always be around. Profiling works and should be used daily by law enforcement.

Don't wanna be harassed? Pull your pants up, don't hang around street corners...try to fit in or gtfo.

Excellent, excellent post! You just helped qualify my previous post, plus you managed to display raw ignorance with your words. Amazing!


Watch this.....Allow me to flip your post around a little:


"Until white people pop their head out of their a** and realize that resembling a friggin child rapist, kidnapper and arsonist will bring unwanted attention profiling will always be around. Profiling works and should be used daily by law enforcement.

Don't wanna be harassed? Grow some hair, get a tan, don't rape little girls and stop stealing money from little ladies and their savings accounts...try to fit in or go back to England, Canada, Great Britain or wherever the hell you all are from."



Question: ^ Is the above remark acceptable? How would white people respond to this in the real world? Answer: No, They'd say it was ignorant and a racist

[AZhitman]

Correct. 2 weeks late to the party, but correct.

Although, Brian IS technically right. From a pure and basic law enforcement perspective, profiling works. Period.

No need to get all flustered, I don't want to have to take you from Administration of Justice 101 to Criminal Justice Administration 472 unless you're planning on paying tuition.

Wait - Make that "non-resident tuition".

[stebo0728]

Profiling is just another way minority dead-beats have discovered to wear the mantle of the victim.

UpStar - if a child is raped in my neighborhood and the cops wanna question me about it, my door is open.

Hell if your looking for 'shine runners, you'd have to stop and question most of LA (Lower Alabama)

This is one of those more emotionally driven issues, on both sides. The people who fit the profile in question but are innocent feel displaced, and victimized. The people who do not fit the profile in question cant imagine why those who do are concerned. Its a lose-lose situation, but a decision on policy must be made, and a policy that is best for the generalized safety of the society as a whole is the choice that must be made. What is best for society as a whole I suppose is still to be determined.

[IBCoupe]

It's weird how, for each of us, individual liberties fall for a different attack.

[AZhitman]

Feel free to exclude me from that, as I'm not giving up ANY of mine.

[IBCoupe]

Your dedication is admirable, Greg, and I'll be very happy if I never get an opportunity to point out an inconsistency.

[AZhitman]

Me too. Even as I typed that, something told me I probably can't state that with any degree of certainty... I probably have given up certain liberties voluntarily without even knowing it, for the sake of convenience or safety.

[IBCoupe]

You voluntarily give up your liberties in small degrees, and we all do it. If you've ever signed up for a credit card, you did it then in giving up your information - there was no requirement for you to do so.

When we give up our liberties knowingly, is it really the absence of liberty, or simply the temporary waiver of it? I think what you're more focused on is the taking away of liberties, and if I had to guess, you're okay with the government deprivation of liberties of criminals (who have deprived others of their individual liberty). And that makes sense.

I expect that where you, I, and others will come to disagreement is not where we see "voluntary" and "involuntary" liberty deprivation. We might agree that industrial waste pollution of waterways involves the involuntary deprivation of individual liberties of those who live downstream, maybe with or without their complicity in the system that creates the industrial waste. We might also agree that two people who enter into a contract to do a thing are voluntarily waiving individual liberties in the process, and that this can have involuntary implications down the road. Imagine if the two individuals contracted for one person to take on the flu as part of an experiment. But the people that come into contact with the infected participant weren't a party to the contract, and their deprivation of liberty would very much be involuntary (unless you take the view that they choose to come into contact with the infected person... which is where "information," "knowledge," and the education debate becomes very much relevant).

But where you, I, and many others will come to a vast array of different conclusions is how to best resolve the involuntary liberty deprivation. We all (for the most part) recognize that it's a problem, but we won't all agree on how to fix it. Some might go after that first contact, some might go after the person delivering the flu, some might go after the person carrying the flu, and some might go after all of it. What's important is that we're all looking at the same thing, despite our different approaches to it.

[AZhitman]

Well-said.

As you can well expect, my position will likely revolve around personal responibility, accountability, and being informed. Therefore, I'm going to target the participant in the experiment first and foremost, assuming he did so voluntarily and was provided with sufficient information to "do the right thing" thereafter.

When a pedestrian is hit by a car, and the pedestrian was in a "protected area" (i.e. crosswalk), I won't be looking to the auto manufacturer's failure to mitigate injury to pedestrians, nor will I be looking at the city planners' failure to build pedestrian bridges, nor will I be criticizing Kool & The Gang for recording that "funky groove" that the driver was compelled to be-bop to on the radio, nor will I be looking to the pedestrian's employer for not paying him enough wages to purchase a car so he can be on "equal footing" with other car owners, nor will I be looking at the race or religion of the pedestrian or the driver of the car for some obscure far-fetched explanation, nor will I be blaming the driver's wife for calling him on his cell phone during drive time... I'll be looking at the driver's inattentiveness. Period.

[IBCoupe]

But the point is that each one of those things that you won't be doing is logically a means to prevent the incident from occuring (or from being replicated in the future). We could regulate the auto industry to build larger front faces (as they have been done), we could hire contractors to design and build pedestrian bridges. And the fact that we're doing one shouldn't preclude us from doing the other. We can still hold the driver accountable, and create ways to avoid the problem in the future.

Forgive me if I'm getting the wrong impression, but it seems as if you'd almost prefer a world that regulated itself through torts alone. One of the flaws from that kind of exclusive approach is that you can only ever react to a problem that already exists. The hurt has still been done. The child has still died. The insurance has still been invoked. Are there incentives to avoid doing it altogether? Yes, but incentives alone do not a prevention make, especially when we're talking about accidental harm.

[AZhitman]

Pretty much.

While I, personally, choose to live my life in such a way that I recognize and prepare for / prevent the eventuality of what *might* occur (worst-case scenario), I don't believe it is a wise approach to policy.

In general, we don't legislate on what "might" happen, we legislate on what HAS happened (to prevent future occurrences). You can call it "reactive", but I don't believe it's the government's role to protect us from ourselves, force us to make "smart" choices, or hold our hands.

It's almost like my approach to parenting - It's ok to skin your knee, it's ok to get your heart broken, it's ok to get socked in the eye if you lip off to someone, it's ok to find yourself unable to afford GT5 if you spent your allowance on Ding-Dongs and Mountain Dew (and it's ok to get a stomachache and barf afterwards).

[IBCoupe]

And that argument works great when it's people doing things to themselves, but when we start to involve other parties, we have to have a different conversation, even if we end up in the same place.

[AZhitman]

True. I don't oppose the process, or the discussion. But you're right, and we probably would wind up in just about the same place, but that's no justification for not at least considering pre-emptive measures.

[wingFeather]

Pull your pants up, don't hang around street corners

I tried saying this earlier, but got the typical narrow-minded "FU" responses. Why people desire to dress like criminals is beyond me. If you want to walk like a criminal, talk like a criminal and push the limits of society, then just be prepared to accept the punishments instead of crying home to mommy.

[heliochrome85]

As someone who fits the "profile" and actually HAS been profiled I can tell you that it is one of the least pleasant experiences of my life. Born and raised in the US, I am a full US citizen, as have my parents since the mid 80s. Yet on my last trip to the Middle East, I was stopped in customs at Washington Dulles Airport. My US passport was placed in a bright red envelope, and two law enforcement officers lead me in front of everyone, to the secondary screening area. In there, it was like Ellis Island, and I was treated as if i was one of those backwards Goat-F'rs as my army friends call em. After carefully explaining of what I was doing in the Middle East, they came up with some bullcrap reason to pull me out of line and into the area. They claimed that they had had reports of US citizens being harassed in my country. Living down the street from the US embassy, i assured them that that wasnt the case. Truthfully, in my 25 years, ive probably spent 1/4 of my life in the Middle East, and never once have I ever been treated in any other way than as a great way to practice ones English. I have never been harassed, nor do I know of anyone being harassed. Long story short, not only was I detained for 1.5 hours after an 11 hour flight from Vienna, I missed my connecting flight, and left secondary screening feeling like I was being accused of something.

Does profiling make us safer? Maybe

Is it impact free on the people who are profiled? Hardly.

[IBCoupe]

I tried saying this earlier, but got the typical narrow-minded "FU" responses. Why people desire to dress like criminals is beyond me. If you want to walk like a criminal, talk like a criminal and push the limits of society, then just be prepared to accept the punishments instead of crying home to mommy.

Ohhh, so that's how criminals dress. Where were our heads?

[WDRacing]

I tried saying this earlier, but got the typical narrow-minded "FU" responses. Why people desire to dress like criminals is beyond me. If you want to walk like a criminal, talk like a criminal and push the limits of society, then just be prepared to accept the punishments instead of crying home to mommy.

Ohhh, so that's how criminals dress. Where were our heads?

Quit acting like stupid people don't perpetuate problems by dressing and acting in a manner that draws attention. That's a very naive point of view.

[wingFeather]

Ohhh, so that's how criminals dress. Where were our heads?

You really need to study psychology. Law is teaching you nothing real about the world, only how to argue better. It is sad

I see no positive benefit to dressing like this:

[IBCoupe]

Quit acting like stupid people don't perpetuate problems by dressing and acting in a manner that draws attention. That's a very naive point of view.

No, it's a realistic point of view. It is no basis for policy, and if police profile and it gets out, where does that get us? It gets us a bunch of people potentially let out because the cops didn't do their job intelligently.

"Acting in a manner that draws attention" is an entirely separate issue. Police are supposed to be looking for people doing suspicious things. They're not supposed to be lookign for people that look like the kind of people they suppose are likely to commit crime.

Edit: I'm not objecting to the act of profiling so much as the criminal policy of profiling. We make all kinds of assumptions about people from very little information, but the criminal system cannot. That's why I wrote, "Oh, so that's what a criminal looks like." If there's no criminal act, there's no criminal, regardless of how a person looks.

[stebo0728]

WD, Wing - I understand your points, and agree somewhat, but something to consider. The people you are describing, perhaps if they didn't dress that way, then maybe the would be wearing a suit without a back? Its dog eat dog out there on the street, as ugly as that sounds, its reality. I dont think they necessarily set out to dress to be a hooligan, its more to fit in and stay alive. Culture steers them in the direction they go. Sure they could wear bermuda shorts, polo shirt and loafers, comb their hair, open doors for old ladys, but how would it be walking home through the alley?

[vikesfankevin1986]

Long story short, not only was I detained for 1.5 hours after an 11 hour flight from Vienna, I missed my connecting flight, and left secondary screening feeling like I was being accused of something.

Thank you for this. Finally someone tells me whats involved in it. I figured they checked ID and searched someone, not hold them for 1.5 hours and make them miss flights. After hearing that, yes profiling would be an issue but if its something as simple as a quick search or checking someones ID, I don't see how it's a huge issue because of you don't have anything to hide, whats the problem?

[WDRacing]

WD, Wing - I understand your points, and agree somewhat, but something to consider. The people you are describing, perhaps if they didn't dress that way, then maybe the would be wearing a suit without a back? Its dog eat dog out there on the street, as ugly as that sounds, its reality. I dont think they necessarily set out to dress to be a hooligan, its more to fit in and stay alive. Culture steers them in the direction they go. Sure they could wear bermuda shorts, polo shirt and loafers, comb their hair, open doors for old ladys, but how would it be walking home through the alley?

Homie...

I'm certainly not suggesting everyone become a yuppy. I believe people can wear whatever they want. But FFS sake, there is a difference between having your pants hanging around your thighs and simply pulling them up. This also extends beyond dress and appearance. Actions speak very loud.

Perpetuation of anything negative is exactly that. I know a bunch of Arabs, Blacks, Asians on down the line that I'm VERY close friends with. ALL hate when their particular race/creed/gender are portrayed in a negative manner.

Take Helio for instance, that poor f*** gets harassed more then my family or myself ever will because of other people acting badly that look just like him.

As far as living in the ghetto or south central type area's go...I don't wanna hear that friggin excuse anymore. Anyone can choose to elevate themselves out of a bad situation, there are thousands of examples to follow. If people could climb out when when racism was still rampant in this country, then there is no damn excuse today. Has anyone noticed the Black POTUS. You just have to choose to take some personal accountability and start making the effort. Dealing drugs and making lots of money is easy, I know I've done it. Working at bettering yourself is the course less played because it's hard. But nothing good comes easy as they say...

Point? Don't perpetuate stupid/negative if you have other options and there are always other options.

BTW, white folk get profiled all the time. There is like a 90% statistic that all serial killers are white males of a certain age. They however act and dress like the majority for the most part, at least in public. They may tuck their pen15 between their legs and dance around behind closed doors...but who doesn't do that every now and then right?