Potential of a N/A s13.

[X12]

Hey everyone,

I'm stuck deciding on getting an EK-9 (Civic Hatchback) or a S13. I know the hatchback would be competitive for SCCA once fully modded but I can't seem to find the same for a S13. I am going naturally aspirated and I prefer it over force induction. I have searched and researched, but most people go SR20s or turbo for their KAs. I do not want to deal with the smog problem with the SRs nor do I want to throw a turbo on the stock KA. So anyone with experience, not simply just a closeminded opinion, please throw it out there. Any powerful or good reviews for naturally aspirated s13s or any KA engine platform? Thank you.

-Andrew

[xyoufailmex]

Hit up the KA forum.... What kind of horsepower are you wanting to make?

Perhaps one of the hardcore NA guys should make a tuning guide for tuning a KA24E and KA24DE to 200HP or so.

[Juujai]

nope it kas arent to great n/a

youre way better off with a b16b in a ek9 =) im pretty sure youre interested in high revving, light weight and agile. right. b16b can push 10k rpm pretty easily some guys even have it up to like 13-14k+ its so loud.

my friend in the beginning was all like i want 200-250hp b16b and all that stuff too now hes happy with like 130hp from a d series motor because he realized hp isnt as necessary in track for beginners

honesty though i love the 240 a lot lot lot lot lot lot lot, i can say it isnt really that great as competitive car. in autox it wont have the fastest times, drag the typical sr'd car semi tuned can run high 13-14 maybe in the 1/4mi. its more of a nice car to look at. its decent at drifting, drag, autox but not close to the best. of course if you tear apart the whole car and redo everything from axles up thats a different story but we little boys are usually on budgets so you know. i play with gran turismo a lot and i like to play around with 180sx after like days and days of suspension tuning i got it to beat the spoon ek9. id rate the handling maybe a 6-7/10. but the looks its pretty sexy =). a nice car out of the box though is the s2k. you could looking into getting a used. the 240 is a car for the love of looks.

why not a dc2? thats a beautiful car too. it handles better than the ek for sure and pushes more power. but its preference. =) i like both
Modified by Juujai at 4:32 PM 2/11/2005

[fiznat]

the 240 is a car for the love of looks.

What in god's name are you talking about?? First of all the appeal to the 240sx is NOT its looks... most people I show it to say it looks "old" nowadays anyways, nevermind most people dont like pop up headlights etc etc. The attraction (for most people I think) to the 240 is the fact that it is REAR WHEEL DRIVE and it has a very nice independent multi link suspension setup. Comparing the 240 to a FWD car is like apples to oranges... and I dare anyone to try and say that FWD cars outhandle RWD cars on most any type of track.

True the KA isnt a huge monster NA, but it is a 4 cyl (a pretty big one at that, actually). I dont think that there are ANY real monster NA 4 bangers... for the simple reason that they just dont have the displacment or compression ratio necessary to make bigger power. I think the KA is a very nice design, but a 4 cyl NA engine is never going to be spectacular.

No, you pick a 240 because of its suspension layout and the fact that it is a cheap, lightweight (ish) rear wheel drive car.

[j-z]

exactly fiz. whats so hard about choosing from a FR or FF platform?? the 240 is an excellent car to auto-x. rwd, loads of torque, and reasonable power to weight ratio. the more mods you do to the suspension, the more responsive and predictable the 240 becomes to be which is where it really shines. .i have alot of friends that have civics and tegs, and the 240 is by far alot more of a car than those.

[w1ngzer0]

What in god's name are you talking about?? First of all the appeal to the 240sx is NOT its looks... most people I show it to say it looks "old" nowadays anyways, nevermind most people dont like pop up headlights etc etc. The attraction (for most people I think) to the 240 is the fact that it is REAR WHEEL DRIVE and it has a very nice independent multi link suspension setup. Comparing the 240 to a FWD car is like apples to oranges... and I dare anyone to try and say that FWD cars outhandle RWD cars on most any type of track.

True the KA isnt a huge monster NA, but it is a 4 cyl (a pretty big one at that, actually). I dont think that there are ANY real monster NA 4 bangers... for the simple reason that they just dont have the displacment or compression ratio necessary to make bigger power. I think the KA is a very nice design, but a 4 cyl NA engine is never going to be spectacular.

No, you pick a 240 because of its suspension layout and the fact that it is a cheap, lightweight (ish) rear wheel drive car.

mabie not outrun... but equil?

there are no monster 4 bangers? ever herd of a 2.7 4 cyl? thats what are in import trucks. Well i have only seen those in toyotas.

ka25 will be nice once someone posts up some vids...

[Arrow]

A pretty monster for a KA engine... would be a SOHC block with the DOHC head, ITB, cams, exhaust, intake, P&P, lightened valvetrain, and a number of other internal engine work... I would bet that KA would be a killer... high compression, lots of torque, and a nice amount of hp... Go to the KA forum and those guys will tell you anything you need to know!

Hope this helps!

[Nismo_Freak]

A turbo car will make less failable emissions than a cammed n/a engine.

[Onizuka]

Call me a SR wanker, but I would chuck the KA in favor of a SR for NA race duty if money were not an important factor. There are 250hp NA SR's availible in crate form and they weigh about 100-120lbs less than a KA block.

However, you would be better off keeping the KA relatively stock and concentrating on weight, chassie, supsension, brake and tire upgrades for autocross. I firmly believe this because I saw a stock engined 80's VW Scirocco with just suspension mods beat the piss out of a new Corvette Z06 and most other cars at an autocross event.

[Juujai]

rwd doesnt mean everything. go play some gran turismo i know some of you may say its just a game but although it may not be 100% perfect its pretty good. drive the 180sx and youll know its not the best car vs other cars in its class or anywhere even close. it launches really crappy without an aftermarket racing transmission+ lots and lots of gear tuning. it turns really bad and any civic hatch or integra dc2 would tear it apart in any circuit/track. im a nissan guy come on and i think hondas can outrun it? im a guy with a sick *** big ego that loves the 240 to death but im honest.

why do you guys think displacement means everything? the b16b is a masterpiece engine man. a 1.6litre engine producing 180hp is pretty scary man. i dont know why you guys would evne compare a 2.4 litre ka pushing what 140 to the wheels? +heavy weight. there are lots of na 4 bangers check out what the little f1 cars have... not all about size. its the motion in the ocean damn it

even if you build a ka n/a all the way ill put my money down it wont catch an n/a civic.

the 240 looks awesome. it doesnt look old at all. of course in stock form its really old but with japanese aero parts/lowering (fender gap is horrible)/chanign wheels (the stock wheels are sunken so bad). the car is very very nice to look at.

the thing about civics and integras is most people have crappy suspension set up so the car wont shine. half the guys have either cut springs or some blown tokico shocks that kill handling. i like all cars so i open my eyes to see whats good out there instead of being stuck with loving rwd.

yes and ill say fwd cars can compete with rwd cars. but only if its a restricted hp event. i know a civic wont be able to hang with 700hp supras, 500-600hp rx7s and the cars ahead of its class but i will say as a fwd car its awesome.

[Red coupe]

I read an article in my auto class that was in an old magizine from 1990, they tested cornering ability in what they called a "simulated on ramp test" results were dead even between the 240 and the integra....and I belive both were higher then .9 (although since they said simulated onramp who knows how much banking came into play, either rate their test showed 240=integra in handling), If you want Ill try to get more from the article.

[KDashy]

Thats because Juujai is talking about Integra Type R's and Civic Type R's in Gran Turismo, Not the standard DA powered ones here in the US.

[xyoufailmex]

Exactly, to compare the Type R's fairly to 240s, you'd have to compare them to a SR20DET'ed 240.

[X12]

Jeez... thanks for the replies everyone. Maybe I should have elaborated more. From my standpoint, N/A are more responsive and reliable than force induced engines; given the lack of "fine" tuning. I myself am no professional tuner (at least yet) so therefore I prefer N/A. I figure a N/A car would definately be more effective in teaching driving skills over a turbo anyday. Once my driving skills improve, I might consider turbo. But for now with my novice racing skills, N/A is perfect to learn with. AN EK-9 is a very competitive car with a N/A platform. And although the 240sx may not be the best, I believe a skilled driver can do anything. However, don't get me wrong, I would pick up an s13 right away. The only thing that concerns me is that the chassis will be old and the engines may be hard to come by for KAs; on the other hand, a 98 Civic, the chassis would not be as old and low-mileage engines are easy to come by. If it was easy to pick up say a 50k KA and easy to rebuild the chassis, I would definately take a s13 over an EK-9.Have any of you heard of rebuilding the chassis? Sounds like a hassle right? Might as well just get a s14 or a newer car?

-Andrew

[KDashy]

I'm not too familair with the honda scene but as far as I know USDM Civic hatchs don't come with any decent engine, unless you're looking for some SiR/Type R engine swap, an ek WOULDNT be competitive with a 240 right out of the box.

But if you have the money a civic wouldnt be a bad choice.

Cars on so cal dont have rust problems so as long as the car hasnt been in a terrible accident, you dont have to worry about chassis problems.

[Onizuka]

go play some gran turismo i know some of you may say its just a game but although it may not be 100% perfect its pretty good. drive the 180sx and youll know its not the best car vs other cars in its class or anywhere even close. it launches really crappy without an aftermarket racing transmission+ lots and lots of gear tuning. it turns really bad and any civic hatch or integra dc2 would tear it apart in any circuit/track.

What on gods earth are you talking about? Grand turismo has about 5% to do with the reality of tuning a car. A 180sx would beat the living piss out of a civic hatch type R on a track. More power, more brakes, more grip.

And racing transmissions are retardedly expensive and near pointless when a stock transmission has great gearing and can handle well over 400-500 horsepower.

[jdmfreak]

ROTFLMAO!!!

240 gen never cease to amaze me. Juujai, IDK where you get this **** from but either you're driving horribly in GT3 or you're just VERY uninformed.

[al]

LOL.

Why in the world would you base an argument off of characteristics of a car in gran turisimo, even though it is a sim, the cars are nothing like their real life counterparts.

Juujai- I do not know why you base you comparison on horsepower and gran turisimo. Although underpowered, the 240sx has superior suspension, which is the main factor for autocross, 40 hp will not make a drastic difference. Also, by no means is the 240sx a heavyweight, ~2600lbs for the coupe, ~2700 h/b. The ek9 weighs ~2400. Yes its a difference, but the 240sx has better weight distribution than the ek9with about 52/48 as opposed to 61/39. Maybe your 180sx in gran turisimo has a crappy launch until you buy the "racing transmission;" however, in reality, the stock 240sx has a strong, well-geared transmission. I do not understand where you come up with these things.

ahh.... maybe if you buy "racing tires," your gran turisimo 240 will launch better. Have fun "tuning your gears"...

[jacob360]

Just put a b16b in a 240sx

[k6kicker]

i play with gran turismo a lot and i like to play around with 180sx after like days and days of suspension tuning i got it to beat the spoon ek9. id rate the handling maybe a 6-7/10. but the looks its pretty sexy =). a nice car out of the box though is the s2k. you could looking into getting a used. the 240 is a car for the love of looks.Modified by Juujai at 4:32 PM 2/11/2005

No one mentioed that his opinions on how a car handles is form a videogame untill like 5 posts ago.....*blinks*

[fiznat]

THANK YOU. Jeez I was reading through and I saw him say "oh but the 240 isnt as good in this video game..." and omg I didnt see ANYONE saying anything about it! Thank you thank you... god, I thought I was gonna have to feild that one too.

I still think a NA 4 banger is a pretty pointless persuit. Waste of money imo. ...and displacement DOES mean a whole freakin lot... ESPECIALLY when it comes to N.A. I dont care if an engine is a "masterpiece" or not, it still doesnt have any freakin balls. 180 hp out of a 1.6l ok yeah engineering feat yes. Race car NO.

I guess I could sorta see NA as a good thing to learn "driver skill" on or whatever, but 1. that doesnt mean go ahead and soak money into the engine... If you wanna learn on something slow then leave it slow... No sense in spending thousands upon thousands for 100 hp max. 2. The driving characteristics of a turbo car vs. NA car are pretty different. ...Doesnt seem to make much sense to me to learn how to race with a NA and then just switch over to a turbo. You'd have to re-learn a whole lot.

EDIT: ok and comparing a 1.6l honda engine to a 3l v10 F1 race engine is just disgusting to me. F1 race engines rev up to something like 17,000 RPM and they are absolutely amazing engines producing in excess of 700 horsepower. Just because these engines have a lower displacement (nevermind 2.5 times more cyls) doesnt mean any freakin 4 banger consumer car motor is a good idea...

Sorry if I'm comin off harsh or a jerk or whatever but arrgh its late and I donno why the idea of a NA 4 banger gets me so upset but it just does... haha

[Arrow]

After posting, I hadn't really checked back on the thread much... and wow... Sure sims are getting more realistic than they have been in the past, but they are no where near reality!

And Fiznat has a valid point. Displacement does matter in an NA car. Even though technology is getting better and smaller engines are still putting out 'decent' power, they are nothing in comparison to an NA car of larger displacement. In an NA car, the larger the displacement the more power potenial there is (to a point). Another side of a larger displacement engine is more torque, without torque, hp isn't all that (my opinion). For instance, look at the B16, sure it might have 180 hp, but check out the torque curve (I have not looked recently), but I bet that it isn't too great. Larger displacement engines allow for more torque as far as my knowledge has gone.

Sorry for my long rant that probably wasn't too informative... Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Juujai]

jspec tuner 5% to do with reality of tuning a car where did you get that info from. i think the car is good and its better than saying i played nfsu and i think the ka 240 turbo is awesome or something like that. atleast the physics are pretty good. thats why i said its not 100% perfect but its pretty good to compare with. i mean if you mod a 180sx and run a quarter mile you can pull about 13 seconds atleast it isnt say its pulling 7seconds or something. the game is actually pretty good. im not dissing you or anything so dont hate =). if you know something i dont know ill be enlightened im not here to hate or anything. the civic type r is an awesome car. why would a 180sx beat the living piss out of it? civic type rs can be tuned to rev over 12-13krpm although only pushing 200-250hp it can beat many cars a class ahead of its own (and im not referring to "OH i can beat a stock 5.0 mustang or viper in a straight line not that bs im saying in tracks), it turns like butter smoothness, there are 4 piston spoon calipers made for it, and running some good tires like azenis or neova ad06 would make it grip awesome. just because this is a 240sx forum everyone has big egos. i do too but im open to like any car i just like cars in general. the stock sr transmission with a lot of power inmy opinion slips and cant hold it. and we all know the stock ka transmission loses 15hp to the wheels automatically.

jdmfreak im not a god in gt3 but ive been playing and i love cars so i just tweak suspension settings whenever i get a chance or im at school. i do everything from running soft rates-hard-weird stuff. i give every car a chance whether is an american muscle, a daihatsu or even a civic so i judge cars pretty evenly or unbiased. oh yeah and i dont think im that uninformed. we have a group of car fans in socal and i drive lots of peoples cars to experience how they are. i have 2 240sxs and have driven 450hp 240s with rally style seats/interior all that and i still say the handling is not as good as some other cars i've driven and that even includes the civic hatch. oh yeah the US civic hatch chassis vs japanese is difference also so when people swap b18s b16s etc and race em it wont be even close to how good the jdm ones are. as ive said even though you guys all think the 240sx stock suspension is all great and stuff ill only rate it at a 6-7 out of 10. sorry if you guys think its all that great but try driving some other cars and you decide.

al how is it nothing like their real life counterparts? how are 240sx underpowered? im comparing a highly modded 180sx with about say 400hp+ vs a 250hp civic. ek9 can be stripped down to 1800lbs or even lower weight distribution can also be redone. battery to the back, cf hood etc. (how can you not understand where i came up with these things? you know clearly where i got it from.

jacob360b16b in a 240 would be pretty gay rather go 20v 4ag haha

fiznat you probably just hate on 4bangers lol its ok though ur not harsh or a jerk. its true though honda motors sound gay they go "wahhhhh" but you cap on the 180hp out of a 1.6 but you guys are all happy turboing a a motor that has 150hp with 2.4 litres... i dont get it. personally ill never turbo it the 1.6 litre motor from the civic can be turboed well over 350-400hp also without breaking any parts when done right. we all know whenthings are done right they last long when done half assed it breaks. to me turbo is like a cheaters excuse for better laptimes since people suck at cornering they just need power in a straights to make their track times look better. um "doesnt make sense to me to learn how to race.... na vs turbo" i think thats the fun part of it. driving different cars, experiencing different things, its a nice feeling i mean its not like we're GODS are driving and we are "experts" with turbo cars we just build em drive em and suck but still have big egos saying we're bad ***

4banger is still a motor to mewhy dont cars just come with v12s then. heavy weight makes a difference inmy opinion. but i dont have 2 identical cars to prove it. 1 with a i4 and 1 with a big motor to show test in track comparisons. check out the rally cars too there are some good n/a 2.0 litres out there

All cars to me are fun to drive/race. havent you seen those japanese tuners screw around racing those mini 1 litre cars? lol theyre like little vans. its fun to drive anything pushing to the limit and learning what the car is capable of. personally i dont think anyone on this forum is a circuit god. we just go to circuits and thats about it. we dont break records or anything.

so its like say we have a 400hp 240sx. couple hp knocked off from wear/tear, couple hp knocked from drivetrain loss, and about 100-200hp loss from our sucky driving skill. i put my money down lots of us will lose to expert daihatsu/geometro/yugo drivers in the circuit outthere...

dont hate though i dont mean to hurt anyones feelings
Modified by Juujai at 11:37 PM 2/13/2005

[KDashy]

You're doing it again, You really should not base your information off of Gran Turismo.

[Dattebayo]

Yeah, really. Um first of all Built SOHC KA's can really blow the pants off of alot of cars. Just ask DeviousKA sometime. And Of course if you looks in the NISMO catalog, there is a ton of parts available for the E and it will kick your sorry butt when its done beating another 4 cyl. n/a car.

And you really cant compare a type-r to a silvia either.

[Juujai]

kdashy am i? where? i dunno lol. i said somewhere i actually drive different cars in real life to compare them.

2bn_s13 why cant you? both are cars and you can compare them both by driving it in a circuit to see the times/handling/feel of the car. comparing it like strawberry is better than chocolate then no. im pretty sure any built car can own. whether it be n/a 240 or any other car. but i think a n/a ka built 240 would have trouble vs a built ek9. my opinion though if you really wanna see just go hit the tracks and check the times with other racers. i dont really like nismo parts either. i mean i sport the caps and clothing but i think the parts arent that great. things id buy from nismo maybe would be injectors, lsd, radiator/oil caps, motor mounts. i dont think nismo is that great as an aftermarket source like mugen or trd is.

[al]

juujai- I was talking stock, which is how x12 will probably be purchasing the car. After a car has been extensively modded it is nothing like its stock counterpart. Then it just comes down to a battle of which car has better tuning and more money spent on it. If your argument is that everything can be redone, than so can the 240sx. The 240sx is slightly underpowered in stock form,mostly due tothe fact that the ka's torque drops off after 5500, but that can be changed quite easily. 155 horsepower is not bad, but that is at ~6200 rpms, after the torque has already fallen off. Not nearly as underpowered as the usdm civic h/b though. welcome to america...

Seriously though, I dont think x12 is really going to be deciding between a 400hp 180sx and a 1800lb, 250hp civic racecar.

but anyway, x12- which car you select will not affect how you do when you decide to race in autocross. The only way that you can make yourself competitive is by driving well. If you can learn how to race very well, you will do well regardless of which car you pick.

--Competitiveness comes from the driver not the car.--
Modified by al at 9:46 AM 2/14/2005

[xyoufailmex]

Firstly, several people build KA24Es, especially in SCCA events that require a stock motor.

Also, you're still basing all your knowledge of cars on a video game... its NOT the same...

Back to helping the original poster... I think if you compared the price difference from a EK9 and a 240SX (maybe 1000 dollars MAX?) then you will see a huge performance difference... I dont know what EK 9s go for at all... not even a clue... but I can tell you that 1000 dollars for a 240, 1500 into suspension, and 3000 into power, 500 into various aspects of control, still leaves you with a FAST 6000 dollar car that will BLOW a type R, straight line or road course.

[KDashy]

kdashy am i? where? i dunno lol. i said somewhere i actually drive different cars in real life to compare them.

So you're telling me you actually have driven a highly modified Civic Type R as well as a 400+ horsepower 180SX?

[Silviapower]

You're doing it again, You really should not base your information off of Gran Turismo.

Juujai has those special equipment on PS2 .

He look at his big screen and plug his Logitech MOMO steering wheel for his PS2 then drive around on on the TV then wallllla ..... he could feel the car handling , power and all those BS. . Ooo before I forgot he also has FORCE FEED BACK ON on the steering wheel damn thats a good SETUP and SPEC very nice

I think I need tho buy one of those Logetech Steering wheel and put it on my 240sx hook it up to a PS2 and then Hook it up to my car's ECU like a Piggy Back..... this is really great thanks for the info...hehehehe