Possible head gasket issues again...no joke

[Darius]

I was tearing the engine apart in preparation for the new turbo manifold and everything else that is going on it when I saw a slightly beige, oily residue on the block by the head. Knowing what has happened in the past, I immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was another COMETIC MLS HG issue. The oil in the turbo looked normal color for old oil as did the dipstick. Upon further inspection of the head, the oil looks a bit milk chocolate like. I think the camera makes it look worse than it is, but I have seen worse before. There is no oil in the coolant either.

The last time I ran it was last week when it was cold and I let it get up to operating temp and then turned it off. No driving. Could this possibly be due to condensation or possibly from starting it when it was really cold?

Here are some pics:

[BoostFab]

yupper, that's headgasket...how much boost were you running? lifted head on high boost, possibly need torque down the headstuds somemore

i always tell everyone to spray several layers of copper gasket on both side of the MLS prior to installation, to help seals.

[Darius]

I just torqued them when I rebuilt the head. This is like the 4th time I've torqued/retorqued the ARP head studs. And no I didn't put any of the copper sealant on it because it just made a goopy mess of my block/head the last time I had it apart.

[the owl]

i know this is bad to say but maybe have a shop do it, if it works cool if not you at least can blame them lol

[gawdzilla]

hmm the pics of the dipstick and oil cap look normal to me, but obviously you have a better idea by looking at it in person. are you sure the residue on the block isn't from some spillage or other crap from last time you worked in that area?

did you re-torque the head studs to spec after a few hundred miles?

i'd do a leakdown test before jumping to any conclusions..

[Joe]

STOP BUYING COMETIC. i HATE their ****.

and definitely do coolant test (its a strip that check for the presence of oil) or a leakdown before you go crazy and pull the head tho.

[bumblebtuna]

I've got a Cometic. I used copper spray on both sides, two light coats.I hope my **** doesn't leak. I also had the head/block resurfaced too.People run Cometic's all the time without problems and swear by them while others hate 'em. I'm starting to believe it's in the install and how good of a cutter the machine shop uses on the block, not the gasket. If someone can prove why cometic's suck other than opinion please do. I'll gladly cut mine into pieces and burn it if it leaks.

..also think someone has told me the block has to have a surface Ra of 60 or better. not too many machine shops have a profilometer though.

best of luck man

[rb25drag]

Im not seeing the milky stuff!!

When you re-torque the bolts are you going to the same Ft lbs as you did last time? B/c even ARP bolts strech and you need to go a little tighter ever time you have to re-torque. But im not seeing the white stuff in the oil. Im sure you have a better view in person.

I have re-used my Cometic gasket twice and Not a problem!! KNock on wood!!!

[Darius]

Thanks for your input guys, as always. The milky stuff in the oil cap area is on the crank cap bolt further down in the pic. It should be a black color and it is more of a cream color. At this point everything is coming off the exterior of the motor anyways so taking it to the next level and pulling the cams and head is not a lot of extra work, relatively. Still sucks on my nuts though. And I will probably be a dumba$$ and break another valve in the process

I had both the head and block milled smooth, check out my build thread for that. I have no idea what the Ra was.

I drained all the coolant into a bucket so I'll look around for that test kit too, and I will finally get to bust out my leakdown kit and try that baby out Friday night. God I'm a loser. I'll keep everyone posted on the results.

p.s. - How do you guys like the floor in the first shot? I absolutely love it. Epoxy is my new favorite material ousting spandex from its lengthy reign.

[Shocker]

I just called and talked to Cometic yesterday. I asked them a few question on how they felt their gasket compared to the competition. They felt its as good if not better.

I even brought up Darius's problem's with getting it to seal. He said the install has to be followed per the directions sent. Both the deck and the head need to be resurfaced to their specified finish and completely clean, otherwise there is a possibility for leaks.

I bought one yesterday, I swear to god if it leaks they will be getting a phone call with me screaming.

Gawd, Darius has HKS cam shafts, therefore he would need to remove them in order to retorque them... are you sure thats required?

[cdorhout]

Do you still have your stock cams?I think I'm going to rebuild the motor and assemble it with stock cams. Then i'll drive it for a while while retorquing the head periodically. After the head has been retorqed a few times, then swap out the cams for aftermarket ones. Oh, and I definately won't be running a Cometic thanks to Matt's experience.

Don't rule out condensation and crap that happens in this cold *** iowa weather. Don't assume the worst just yet. That thing ran great this fall with no issues, I can't see a headgasket leak just popping up after a month of driving it. 13psi isn't going to lift the head with ARPs.

[craz4240]

I prefer the stocker and some retorquing of the head bolts.

[cdorhout]

Matt has plans to push upwards of 30psi of boost this summer. The stocker is not an option.

[gawdzilla]

Gawd, Darius has HKS cam shafts, therefore he would need to remove them in order to retorque them... are you sure thats required?

If you talk to ARP reps, they will recommend it. On my Tomei's they had the reliefs so it was doable in the car even with the radiator in (bump start with the starter). When I finally got around to doing it on mine (maybe 5-6k miles in.. yea pretty late). A couple of the studs had loosened a bit to less than spec.

[Shocker]

If you talk to ARP reps, they will recommend it. On my Tomei's they had the reliefs so it was doable in the car even with the radiator in (bump start with the starter). When I finally got around to doing it on mine (maybe 5-6k miles in.. yea pretty late). A couple of the studs had loosened a bit to less than spec.

damnit, not looking forward to that...... Its such a pain in the *** to have to remove the front bumper, IC, piping, e-fans, rad, accessories, timing belt then pull the cam... But I guess if it keeps the head down and the motor alive its a must.

Matt I wonder if that was the cause in your possible HG failure again.... studs got loose?

[Coolwhip]

damn man, not AGAIN! I remember my cometic hg didn't seal the first time around with ARP's on my 25 thus resulting in me wanting to just do the whole thing one shot.

Then again, I personally don't believe I took all the proper steps and time on prepping the mating surfaces as I should.

[craz4240]

Matt has plans to push upwards of 30psi of boost this summer. The stocker is not an option.

In that case what would the answer be??More torque on the bolts??I say that would streatch and weaken them further.

[240z4u]

he was talking about the headgasket.

You aren't gonna stretch ARP studs.

Retorque is reccommended, I had them in my L28 turbo. Luckily I did not have to pull cams etc for a retorque. What a pain in the ***.

Sorry to hear of your problems man. Sounds like it may be the headstuds instead of the HG though.

Evan

[Coolwhip]

good call, perhaps if over and over your headgaskets are going to junk it might well be the studs. Chances of getting a bad gasket more than once is unlikely, and especially having the prep work done correctly i would think you would have better luck.

Anyhow, if you need some extra ARP 25 headstuds I have almost a complete set.

[Darius]

Shocker - I installed the gasket according to their specs except I do not know exactly what the Ra was. I am sure from this pic that you can see how smooth it was. The only thing Cometic is "better" at than other companies is heat resistance, but who needs heat resistance when you should have a functioning cooling system? EPDM>>Viton when it comes to sealing.



cdorhout - I sold my stock cams so no I don't have them anymore. If I could do it all over again I would have gone with a cam that I could reach the head nuts through. Popping valve covers is no comparison to having to remove the timing belt and cams and radiator and crank pulley and belts and covers and CAS and cam pulleys dammit it is not easy.

If I remember right and I could be wrong here, ARP studs are torque-to-yield which means if you overtorque them (beyond the elastic limit or "yield") they will stretch and not return to their original length.

Until I get a leakdown test completed, I won't do anything drastic.

[Shocker]

Matt, There is no way ARP's studs are torqued to yield, they have to have some type of safety factor in there. Otherwise any raise in cylinder pressure will stress the head studs and instantly cause them to yield (stretch) once the material has yielded there is no going back. Could always call and ask.

I'm guessing the head studs got loose, I had no idea ARP recommend a re-torquing. Only way to be sure is to unfortunately remove our ****ty HKS cams with no recesses set the trq wrench to 75 ft lbs and see if it clicks instantly or turns....

[240z4u]

Shocker is correct, they are not TTY that why you can reuse them.

Evan

Do you guys know which cams do allow retorque without removal?

[Coolwhip]

Tomei

[craz4240]

Shocker - I installed the gasket according to their specs except I do not know exactly what the Ra was. I am sure from this pic that you can see how smooth it was. The only thing Cometic is "better" at than other companies is heat resistance, but who needs heat resistance when you should have a functioning cooling system? EPDM>>Viton when it comes to sealing.



cdorhout - I sold my stock cams so no I don't have them anymore. If I could do it all over again I would have gone with a cam that I could reach the head nuts through. Popping valve covers is no comparison to having to remove the timing belt and cams and radiator and crank pulley and belts and covers and CAS and cam pulleys dammit it is not easy.

If I remember right and I could be wrong here, ARP studs are torque-to-yield which means if you overtorque them (beyond the elastic limit or "yield") they will stretch and not return to their original length.

Until I get a leakdown test completed, I won't do anything drastic.

All this is exactly what I think as well,they may recommend retorquing but they are also only reuseable so many times...everytime you retorque them and especially increase the load you will weaken them.

[eh?]

What are you torquing the studs to? Also are you retorquing after 1k miles?

[240z4u]

All this is exactly what I think as well,they may recommend retorquing but they are also only reuseable so many times...everytime you retorque them and especially increase the load you will weaken them.

Arp studs don't stretch.

Increase what load? When you retorque you are torqing to the same measurement. Its to compensate for gasket compression.

[BoostFab]

ARP reccomends to retorque their head studs after 10 heat cycles, before any hard driving or tuning done.

Retorqueing heads is a common procedure as long as they are not moved. You want to be sure to release the tension on the intake & ex bolts first. Then proceed to loosen the head bolts. Retorque heads and then intake & ex manifold, just like starting over. It actually seals tighter the 2nd time around as long as your careful not to pry them loose from their set pattern.

Because of changes that happen after a number of heating and cooling cycles it is always best to re-torque your heads after break in, whether when using studs or bolts.

Bolt or stud stretch occurs at the moment you are torquing them. Besides gasket compression continuing, there is a lot of expanding and contracting of the heads and block going on during the break-in period. This can change dimensions and cause a lack of torque on the head bolts/studs. If you have aluminum heads on an iron block this is even more exaggerated.

Re-torquing head bolts after break-in has been a rule of thumb in many circles among the "grayer" crowd.

it's APITA, i know. try that before scrapping for a new headgasket.

[eh?]

Personally, if I were you at the point where you are now with the constant retorquing I'd replace the headgaket.I did have the same problem with a GREX hg and replaced it woth a Tomei hg and it went away.

http://www.cosworth.com/shop_i...d=547

Not a bad price...

[Carl H]

i honestly wouldnt mess with an mlshg they seem to be nothing but trouble...if you want something that will hold boost then do the right thing, use the stock hg and have the block oringed, that will hold 30psi easy in conjunction with arp bolts and is gaurenteed to seal.

[Shocker]

i honestly wouldnt mess with an mlshg they seem to be nothing but trouble...if you want something that will hold boost then do the right thing, use the stock hg and have the block oringed, that will hold 30psi easy in conjunction with arp bolts and is gaurenteed to seal.

Carl, care to enlighten us more on this o-ringing?