please help me choose a turbo

[dhen]

Hi everyone,

I looking into getting more power and I've been doing a lot of reading on turbos the last few days. I would like to hit 300 at the flywheel. Here is what I have:

SR20 turbo (T28 - I believe it's journal bearing)
DSM 450 injectors
ARP head studs
stock engine

My understanding is that to meet this goal, I would need a different turbo and bigger injectors. (And of course a tune, but that's a separate issue.)

After doing some research, it sounds like I should get a .48 T3 turbo. What's the best bang for the buck? I don't mind used, but no Chinese eBay stuff.

Also, would a Holset HX30 work? I found these maps on Google. I don't mind something that spools in the high 4,000s, but 6,000 is too late.





Thoughts?

Thanks

[Izento]

Personally I think a ball-bearing should be used if going T3, because our motors are so small and you don't want super late spool. A journal bearing T28 even spools slow.

[themadscientist]

True. When I went from a small AR journal bearing turbo to a larger AR ball bearing one, the response was so much faster I almost put the the car through the back fance of the garage parking lot. There are a lot of tuning fads, but ball bearing is for real.

[dhen]

Thanks for letting me know, guys. Is there anything that can be had on a budget?

[Izento]

I don't think there are any cheap ball bearing turbos to be honest. You're gonna have to break the bank. Also, please don't get a used one, unless you know the car/owner that it's from (on a personal basis too, like a friend) then I wouldn't chance it. Turbos tend to get busted too easily by people (improper shutdowns, high boost, bad oil, rod knock motors, etc) will make your seemingly cheap purchase (like $600 still) when you could have just gotten a brand new one for a little more. Sorry but I don't think there is an easy way out of this one without dropping some dough.

[dash]

a ton of ca18 ~300hp combos on the net. Most use t28 + ~460cc rx7 injectors + chip. Sounds like u have a good start
lots of excellent performing journal turbos about. You'd be lucky to see 300rpm spool difference with a bb version
Far more important to 'size' the turbo right AND a good tune. Some still on stock afm, but most rb20 or z32
Dunno if any chip burners still hang out here, or u can find a used ecu from a proven t28/450cc combo
Even a couple members posted stock ecu + 450s + afm(z/rb20/j30 or maxima) + a SAFC.... car ripped!
stock evhaust manifold & functioning butterflys give quickest response

[dash]

boostboy offered a $450 "t28 upgrade" on your stock t25 a while back
non bb, but new center core and folks seem to be happy with em. A good deal imo

[blownhemi]

Switching to T3 would mean a extra costs: a different manifold, new downpipe, very possibly rerouting the MAF and IC piping. It may end up costing you more than what you save on a "cheap" T3 turbo.
As a general rule, if you have a firmly set goal, pick the smallest possible turbo that will still get you there efficiently. That way you'll have the best response for that power. As stated before, T2 frames will get you there.
Forget HX30s as well, they can make that power, but they're T3, and they are few and far between.

[float_6969]

300HP is easy to hit on a T2 flange, So I would stick with that. You're not going to do this for cheap, and if you try, you'll regret it and end up spending more money in the long run. I REALLY like the new EFR turbo's from Borg Warner. After I get back up and running and the engine broken in. I'm likely going to switch to an EFR before I start seriously tuning.

I can tell you from experience that an S15 SR T28 (the BB version with the divider built into the turbine housing for the wastegate separator) spools quickly and will get you to 300HP. It's been done a million times on SXOC and it's a very tried and true path. If you look on UK ebay, it should be easy to find a "Stage 3" chip. This is almost always 550cc injectors and a Z32 MAFS designed for the turbo I just mentioned.

[dhen]

Thanks, guys, this is what I was looking for.

I suspected that there were T2 turbos that could do this, but I wasn't sure where to start. The price of a good T2 is probably cheaper than a cheaper T3 + intercooler piping + manifold + downpipe.

So my goal isn't possible on a T28 journal bearing turbo?

I learned a long time ago that cutting corners costs more money. I'm not in a hurry and want to do research first and plan my build.

Float is this what you mean?

http://www.maperformance.com/borg-warne ... oCllXw_wcB

I've heard different things about these guys. They say they re-engineer their turbos with garret parts. They're in Austriala, though.

http://digi-hardware.com/atr28.html

Thanks, guys, Keep them coming.

[dhen]

This would be T25 and work, correct?

http://www.frsport.com/Garrett-GT2560R- ... _2303.html

[Izento]

No, you don't need to get a ball bearing if you're going T28. That rule was only for T3

[float_6969]

Yea, you don't HAVE to have BB. It won't help with spool up a great deal ( maybe a couple hundred RPM), but it does help with transient response (getting back into boost after lifting the throttle). The BB T28 actually came back into boost between shifts faster than the stock CA T25 did. That's how much difference it makes.

The link you gave for the EFR is the exact turbo I'm talking about. I know it's a lot more money, but it's a GREAT turbo from what I'm reading online.

I've never read anything anywhere about HyperGear turbo's.

The link you gave to FRSport is the EXACT turbo that I was running. It even came from FRSport, LOL.

[Izento]

If you're going to drop that much money, you might as well save some and get an s15 turbo, as I believe the gt2560 has the same specs. I would personally upgrade that to a gt2871r instead for like $300 more.

[Izento]

Oh, btw, this is my reasoning.
http://www.nissanparts.cc/partlocator/i ... at1=210356

$800 for an S15 turbo from one of the local vendors near me in Washington. Probably the best price I've ever seen.

[dhen]

That is a really good price I paid that several years ago for my journal bearing T28. I wish I'd been able to get that when I bought my current turbo.

Thanks for the info, Ryan. Now I have a better idea.

My plan is very long term. I'm going to replace my engine management with something more modern in the next year or two. Since this means a new tune, I might as well upgrade the turbo. I also put in a stronger rear axle with LSD last year, so of course I need more power to throw at it...

Something occurred to me, today. If I do go with a T3 flange, there are a lot of turbos to choose from and play with. T25 means keeping my other hardware, though, which I'm happy with.

[dash]

no magic in bb turbos. Pay alot more for less performance. Not a wise choice if, 'on a budget' imo
$1000 for a t28bb, that can't outperform a $500 evoIII 16g
$1100+ for a hyped up 2871, that would be waxed by a $650 t3/t4
the stock manifold chokes ~340hp anyway, so what's the point ?

[Izento]

no magic in bb turbos. Pay alot more for less performance. Not a wise choice if, 'on a budget' imo
$1000 for a t28bb, that can't outperform a $500 evoIII 16g
$1100+ for a hyped up 2871, that would be waxed by a $650 t3/t4
the stock manifold chokes ~340hp anyway, so what's the point ?

Getting a $1100 2871 would spool faster than that $650 t3. Not to mention, you would need a $800+ t3 manifold (don't want a chinese manifold cracking, so don't cheap out on that). That's already $1450 and that's not even considering a new downpipe. This equals slow spool on our 1.8L motors, no thanks.

$800 for a t28bb, that can definitely hit the 300hp (remember, he's not looking for ~340hp) mark and have better response than a $500 16g that you would still need to do a flange to put on the CA manifold.

In all categories besides maximum power, the 16g and t3 lose to the 2871 and S15 turbo.

[dash]

Wild assumptions.
Ask those who have bothered to actually run both setups
sxoc have a good bit of info, dyno and testimonials of t3(from cossie mostly) vs various t28s
2871 spoolup no better than t3/t4 you can find right here on nico.
Read the 16g users feedback as well.... or the 17c.... or 18g..... All the info is out there
any non bb t25/28 'upgrade'(new chra) will also easily hit 300hp, for a little over half that $800
"Guessing" really does no good

[Buddyworm]

http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/nissansilvia.aspx

Subaru guys seem to like these. Been looking at getting some of their turbine housings and wheels and messing with my own turbo!

http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/turbo ... o-3-2.aspx

This turbo would interest me if I was doing a mild boostup on a CA. The TD05's spool like crazy, not the biggest turbine housings on those, so maybe the 9-blade wheel could help you keep the backpressure down a bit.

[Izento]

As I said though, running t3 or 16g will require more $, even if the spool is on par with t28. He's not looking for ultimate power, just enough to get him to his goal. I honestly don't think it's worth the hassle for him to go with any other routes.

I also looked up the turbo lag part and I was pleasantly surprised to find that 16g's are twinscrolled! I guess it does come on quick!

[dhen]

Lots of great info here. I had no idea about the 16g. That's certainly something to look into.

[nickhebert]

I just order my .48 ar turbine housing for my precision 5557 when it comes in I will get some pictures of my manifold and turbo setup if you are interested in going with a t3 setup.

[Buddyworm]

The 16G is not really all that big. The the TD05 turbine housings are small, T25/28 sized things. I've run a TD05-14B. That turbo made 1Bar before 4000rpm, but looking back that turbo was way too far out of its efficiency sweet spot.

Run the 16G at max 12psi and your engine will be a happy camper. Any more than this is pushing the turbo too hard IMO. You could squeeze 16psi out of it I bet, but I'd also bet you'd start pushing a little oil out your breathers.



http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/gra ... duct_id=88

This chart shows the turbo running at about 13psi. The red line is the path the turbo takes as it's winding up. If you raised the pressure much higher you'd push the turbo out of its efficiency range, pushing more hot air. This, I believe, is why so many CA's push oil out their breathers. Everybody's so obsessed with spool on a small engine they undersize their turbos and wind up running them deep into choke. Not to mention the insane exhaust backpressure that develops upstream of the turbine with those teeny tiny housings.

**Edit: For the record I run a TD06-20G now. Healthiest my engine has ever been. I do not push oil out my breather and I run a hose straight off the crankcase. Currently tuned to 1Bar.

[dash]

I also looked up the turbo lag part and I was pleasantly surprised to find that 16g's are twinscrolled! I guess it does come on quick!

evoIII 16g is not twin scroll. 7cm exhaust housing, but physically much smaller and lighter than the common DSM 7cm hsg.

Don't underestimate the profound effect the exhaust manifold design has on turbo response either
The common thin wall big tube type are actually worse

Long threads on DSM forums show how well the evoIII 16g perform..... despite the 'maps'.
Some may call it the best dam "little 300hp AND 400 hp turbo".
Taken heavy 3000+ pound 2L street cars to 11.5sec 1/4 mile ETs. Incredible for a puny low dollar turbo
I'm sure a full weight ca18/evoIII 16g street S13 would go even quicker, same recipee.... but turbo life reduced obviously

bigger breather hoses + catch can worked for many, when "cranked up"

But a bolt-on t28 is the smartest choice for that ~300 target = the beaten path
Dunno what they cost in u.s dollars but I followed a few of those hypergear ca18 builds on NS.com.... impressive stuff

For the record I run a TD06-20G now. Healthiest my engine has ever been. I do not push oil out my breather and I run a hose straight off the crankcase. Currently tuned to 1Bar.

sounds like a really nice setup

[dhen]

If I could hit 300 HP with my current non-bb T28, that would be ideal. It sounds like 300 HP on a T28 is pushing it's upper limits and it is blowing a lot of hot air. Is this true?

**Edit: For the record I run a TD06-20G now. Healthiest my engine has ever been. I do not push oil out my breather and I run a hose straight off the crankcase. Currently tuned to 1Bar.

I agree, that does sound interesting. Have you put it on a dyno?

I just order my .48 ar turbine housing for my precision 5557 when it comes in I will get some pictures of my manifold and turbo setup if you are interested in going with a t3 setup.

I'd be very interested in seeing that and hearing how it goes.

[Buddyworm]

Long threads on DSM forums show how well the evoIII 16g perform..... despite the 'maps'.
Some may call it the best dam "little 300hp AND 400 hp turbo".
...

bigger breather hoses + catch can worked for many, when "cranked up"

I pushed both a 14B and a 17C too far on previous setups. Compressor maps top them both out at around 10psi for an engine like the CA but I was running them both at 1bar. Funny thing was the engine kept making power as you pushed it beyond that. I have no doubt they can make cars go fast, but the catch can IMO should be used as a warning signal.

That's just been my experience though. Could be a lot of things at play really.

Are you talking drag setups or cars that have to put out a more long-term effort like drifting or road race? I see so many guys at drift days running what I'd call undersized turbos with crankcase pressure issues. Halfway through the day they're hot and starting to push oil.

I really feel like mutch is dependent on the turbine housing and overall exhaust system. The compressors may well be up to the task but I'd wager the backpressure you'd develop in the exhaust manifold to "push" them that hard is astronomical. Makes it tough to get those hot exhaust residuals out of the cylinder and that's going to make the fuel more knock prone.

What fuel octane you have available? I still run into a lot of people using 91. Now that definitely hasn't proven to be a winning recipe in my experience.



I haven't had my setup on the dyno yet dhen, tuned it on the highway. It "should" be 300hp, but who knows really. I had some fun with a Camaro ZL1 on the freeway earlier this summer. I walked on him but who knows how hard the middle aged dude had his foot down.

[Izento]

I'm pretty sure the ZL1 let you walk away, lol. I don't think too many CAs and SRs are messing with ZL1s and SRT8s.

[dash]

If I could hit 300 HP with my current non-bb T28, that would be ideal. It sounds like 300 HP on a T28 is pushing it's upper limits and it is blowing a lot of hot air. Is this true?

It's not like the motor/turbo "sits" at 300 hp .
If 'hot air' was a concern, the practice would have never been so popular. Seems "ideal" to me

Buddyworm mention very good points

For extended high rpm periods, definitely open up the hotside.... td06/8cm, stg 3/0.63, etc.... and run a better manifold

Yep, catch can is a good indicator. Engine condition plays a role in that tho.
I noticed a few CA18s I opened had obvious side wear in the cylinder (just like float mentioned in a recent thread)
That can't be good for ring sealing. In fact its the worst of the 4 cyl motors I've seen.
As a comparison, no such wear in any high mileage mitsubishi 4g63 I've ever checked. Not even a ridge

DEM guys build entertaining quick street cars. Monitoring knock via stock ecu keeps em alive and performing so well
Yes, they do make more power and car goes faster as they crank the boost up (n off the map)
Some run race fuel or pump + water/meth/alky injection, when 'set on kill'.
Interesting to note that a few of them switching from evoIII 16g to 20g, ET'd no quicker at the strip. but the peak hp increased as well as the trap speed mph, on the same setup

[dash]

I'm pretty sure the ZL1 let you walk away, lol. I don't think too many CAs and SRs are messing with ZL1s and SRT8s

ca18 + td06/20g is a 10sec combo with boost cranked up. What do those cars typically run at the strip ?