I disagree with JD Power reliability rankings!!

[ImStricken06]

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/ ... 44256.html

[Rogue One]

One word... RIGGED!

[kerrton]

Hard to say, I don't know what their specific method is for calculating those numbers but I'm sure there are large bias' in there. GM beats Nissan? Come on. Or, maybe things have changed.....bottom line, the important thing is that is tightly clustered pack, all or most are likely very good and much better than a couple decades ago. You have to be careful when comparing to "average" - in this case I think average is really good, and anywhere within a few points of average is great and nothing to worry about.

[takeshi]

It's a survey. It is what is is. You can disagree with it but unless you've done a survey with a statistically significant sample an individual opinion really doesn't mean anything.

[ImStricken06]

It's a survey. It is what is is. You can disagree with it but unless you've done a survey with a statistically significant sample an individual opinion really doesn't mean anything.

and i also know survey's are so often skewed that its not even funny.

[TrevorK]

I think some of you are over-reacting....about the quality of Nissan. I can't be the only one with "problems" that get taken in for warranty work. I've had nothing but problems with the fit/finish of the vehicle (3 warranty repairs related to that) and have had the hatch struts replaced because they don't perform in the cold (and will be doing it again before the three year mark is up as they still stick and make horrible noises when it's slightly below freezing).

Right there, with my vehicle alone, I have had 4 "problems" (as I assume they are defined). I can't be the only one.

While the Rogue has been far from a bad vehicle I can easily see how, in studies like this, information might not be accurate because who knows how many of these "problems" would have been reported by others and all the other question surrounding statistical data when gathering feedback from a diverse group of people.

But to think that Nissan is leaps and bounds ahead (or behind) any of the major car makers definitely seems unreasonable.

[ImStricken06]

MY RECORD WITH NISSAN CARS:

1999 Nissan Altima 5speed manual = 161,000 miles. stock clutch / changed the oil only every 30k.
replaced 1 window switch, window was left open during rainfall.(my fault)
replaced 1 window wiper motor, the wiper switch was left ON and when i started the car, it couldn't move the snow and broke.(my fault)
(i beat the living piss out of this car, and it still ran like a champ)

2000 Infiniti i30 = 148,000 miles.
transmission oil gasket replaced at around 28,000 miles

2002 Nissan Maxima = 164,000 miles / never changed transmission fluid lol
stock radiator cracked at 150,000miles
driver seat stopped moving forward at around 120,000
rear muffler at 145,000

2008 Nissan Rogue = 48,000 miles / tows a trailer with racebike & gear
rear seat rattled, until i simply wrapped electrical tape around the metal ring
front seat ticks back and forth when on the rear-most position

2010 Infiniti G37s Coupe, 6speed manual, RWD = 30,000 miles
transmission bearing rattled at around 2,000 miles. transmission replaced, no further issues.

how many people you know can say they replaced, at most, 2 parts- on a car between 0 - 150,000 mile average? the only people i know who can say that = are nissan & honda owners. (honda makes an amazing car, but they use a rubber timing belt = which costs a TON of money to replace every 60-80k which is why i stay away form those cars)

[ImStricken06]

But to think that Nissan is leaps and bounds ahead (or behind) any of the major car makers definitely seems unreasonable.

its not unreasonable. i work with cars, and DO think nissan is leaps and bounds ahead of many manufacturers. talk to a mechanic, before you make assumptions the car you own is below dodge/chrysler/buick/mazda/lincoln/ram/suzuki/chevy/ford/bmw/gmc, etc

[kerrton]

Trevor I think you're hinting around the idea that just a total number of "problems" may not be the best way to determine quality and reliability without considering the magnitude of the problem.

I'd take your Rogue with its 4 problems related to minor things like the hatch struts, over a Dodge Journey which has only 2 problems, transmission failure, driveshaft and transfer case failure (common problems with early Dodge Journey's). Would you say the Dodge is more reliable because it only had 2 problems and the Nissan had 4? Of course not, the Nissan powertrain is tough and will last you 200,000 miles before having issues, whereas the Dodge had major powertrain failure early in the vehicles life, and will likely have repeated powertrain failures until someone finally gets fed up and parks it at the auto wreckers before it even hits 60,000 miles.

Bottom line, stats can be very misleading. In the case of the Dodge owner in my example, he'd be so concerned with this horrible powertrain issues and calling friends for rides due to his failed vehicle, he's not even thinking about the little things like squeeks, rear hatch strut performance etc.. Chances are if he does notice these little things, he'll tell himself "just focus on the big stuff, if they can get this piece of crap running I'll be happy to live with a rear hatch that doesn't stay open". I honestly believe that owners of high quality vehicles like Toyota, Honda and Nissan over-report defects because all the major stuff is so good (i.e. powertrain, electronics), they have higher standards than a Dodge owner and look for small things to complain about (and rightly so). So for every 10 major failures of a Dodge engine or transmission, you might get 10 failures of a Nissan rear hatch strut, but this doesn't mean these vehicles are equal. The Dodge probably has crap rear hatch struts too but nobody reports it, they're too busy worrying about powertrain failures!

[kerrton]

And I just did talk to my Nissan mechanic today, I've got 2 months left on my powertrain warranty so had him listen to the engine sound for his opionin (subtle tick noise etc.), and full front-end and suspension inspection (all included in the price of my oil change by the way, full synthetic Mobil 1, with my coupon it was $84 grand total and I'm good for another 6 months).

He told me the subtle ticking is normal valvetrain and injector noise, and that the noise isn't anything to worry about. The QR25 is a bulletproof engine, somewhat unrefined (ticking, rattling when cold and somewhat when warm), but he says he has yet to work on a single one of the current design which was introduced around 2007. None at all, not even for a basic valve adjustment, nothing, and he's seen many upwards of 150,000 km and they run perfectly, no oil consumption, valvetrain and injector noise sounds the same as mine with 65,000 km. And never has he had problems with the fuel system, intake etc. Very rarely, if ever, do they need the MAF cleaned, or the injectors cleaned, and obviously there is no sludge issue with this engine, he's never had to open one up!

It's just a good solid, durable engine with bare minimum maintenance costs, they never burn oil so you don't even have to worry about checking the oil level that often or have to add oil, which can't be said for a lot of Honda's. The Pilot in particular is a very expensive vehicle and as late as 2011 models have had big problems with oil consumption and owners constantly having to check levels and add oil. That's one headache we should never have with this car!

[ImStricken06]

I'd take your Rogue with its 4 problems related to minor things like the hatch struts, over a Dodge Journey which has only 2 problems, transmission failure, driveshaft and transfer case failure (common problems with early Dodge Journey's). Would you say the Dodge is more reliable because it only had 2 problems and the Nissan had 4?

I honestly believe that owners of high quality vehicles like Toyota, Honda and Nissan over-report defects because all the major stuff is so good (i.e. powertrain, electronics), they have higher standards than a Dodge owner and look for small things to complain about

that post was said better than i ever could.


PS: Trev, what were you 4 issues, btw?

[TrevorK]

But to think that Nissan is leaps and bounds ahead (or behind) any of the major car makers definitely seems unreasonable.

its not unreasonable. i work with cars, and DO think nissan is leaps and bounds ahead of many manufacturers. talk to a mechanic, before you make assumptions the car you own is below dodge/chrysler/buick/mazda/lincoln/ram/suzuki/chevy/ford/bmw/gmc, etc

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

However simple logic defies that one brand of car is significantly better than another because:
- They are produced in a similar fashion
- They use parts sourced from a common supplier
- No company possesses some sort of technology that is not readily produced by another team

While all vehicles have their own goals (for instance a Lexus may have more sound deadening material than a GM) to think that mechanically a brand is better than another where in this day and age we precisely engineer and manufacture products is absurd.

I'm all for a discussion on the quality of vehicles but you're going to need to show why you think Nissan engineering is superior to Toyota, Ford, GM, etc. It's easy to pick on general points (like problems with new models for instance) but we're talking about an entire brand here and it seems unlikely that any, in this day and age, possess some sort of magical engineering that makes them better.

[TrevorK]

how many people you know can say they replaced, at most, 2 parts- on a car between 0 - 150,000 mile average? the only people i know who can say that = are nissan & honda owners. (honda makes an amazing car, but they use a rubber timing belt = which costs a TON of money to replace every 60-80k which is why i stay away form those cars)

That's the exact reasoning that shows the potential flaw in the reports - the amount of data and the interpretation of the collected information that results in the collected data. With such a small sample of data it's possible to achieve an extreme (many part replacements, few part replacements) either way. I think it's reasonable to say that, if you were a courier for instance and drove 400 miles/day on the highway that the results of your vehicle would be much more positive than someone who drove stop and go every day in heavy traffic. This is why you need to sample a large number of vehicles, your driving habits and even your ability may be drastically different than those around you. It could even be as simple as some people perform less maintenance than you do, hence encounter more problems.

While your experience is positive with Nissan products not everyone has the same experience as you and one person's experience is hardly indicative of an entire lineup.

[TrevorK]

Trevor I think you're hinting around the idea that just a total number of "problems" may not be the best way to determine quality and reliability without considering the magnitude of the problem.

This is just it. One of my problems is my hatch struts and is no where near as serious as a CVT transmission failing. Yet they may both be on the same level when it comes to this report.

Of course not, the Nissan powertrain is tough and will last you 200,000 miles before having issues, whereas the Dodge had major powertrain failure early in the vehicles life, and will likely have repeated powertrain failures until someone finally gets fed up and parks it at the auto wreckers before it even hits 60,000 miles.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but would you agree there are many people who would say the same thing about Nissan and their early CVT transmissions? I think it's very reasonable to think that there are many customers that would not buy a Nissan again after their CVT failing. We're talking about an entire brand here and picking out a single model, especially a newly designed one, that experiences significantly more problems than expected can be done with any brand.

The Dodge probably has crap rear hatch struts too but nobody reports it, they're too busy worrying about powertrain failures!

This all goes back to the stats being misleading. I am sure than many owners would have just lived with the hatch struts and said "well it only happens in the winter". And I'm sure there are many Rogue owners that say the same thing. Perhaps a better judge of quality, or a statistic that may be more valuable, would be an indication of the average amount of warranty work performed over a 3 year period. This would eliminate small problems (like the hatch struts) and really isolate major problems (transmission).

[kerrton]

Ehhhh, I see where you're coming from Trevor, in general you are right all vehicles are produced in a "similar" manner, and have "similar" engineering design, and manufacturing processes, but what really matters is the very fine differences.

Engineering design of precision components is a painstaking process, to say that it's all about the fine details is an understatement. The difference between relative success and failure can be in the range of thousandths of a milimieter - two manufacturers might both have "simliar" designs, but one part will fail 50% sooner than the other, which is a huge difference. Then there's the programming and electronics, you may have a near-perfect mechanical piece, say a piston or a piston ring, and theoretically it should fit the block perfectly and run forever, but if the software engineers screw up the programming for the timing of the ignition (spark, injection of air and fuel), that near-perfect piston will fail prematurely. Then there's the long, painful process of determining why a component failed, and how to corerct it.

That's just a glimpse in to the design process, then you're on to the manufacture of parts, and from there on to assembly. There are hundreds of potential points of failure in this chain of events, and a lot of it comes down to the QA/QC system(s) that are in place throughout. They have to look good on paper and in theory, then you have to have a good program in place to ensure you hire and retain the best quality people to work for you, and consistently apply the process. This leads to Human Resources Systems, if you don't have a good HR system, again the entire system breaks down. Toyota has for many years had some of the best design and testing engineers in the world, and they've kept them long-term (no wasted resources and high number of screw-ups due to constantly bringing new staff on board). In the early 2000's, Hyundai apparently stole away a lot of the senior Toyota engineers and a lot of their rise to the top in the past decade can attributed to this - they offered better compensation to the top staff and its paid off.

To further complicate matters, vehicle designers, engineers, top executives can not and do not have the goal of "building the best, highest quality vehicle", absolutely not. It's possible, but our cars would cost $100,000 each and nobody would be able to afford them, and subsequently all car manufacturers would go out of business and we'd all be taking the bus. Instead they have to make compromises. Build a "pretty good" vehicle to hit price point $xxx, provide a net profit of $xx. The car has to offer reasonable reliablity, reasonable cost, and provide a profit to the manufacturer, dealership and all related stakeholders. This is the tricky part, and every company will deal with this in different ways, and each car is dealt with differently. You can see some of the superficial cost-cutting measures in the interior dash material etc., but most you can't see, it's in the powertrain, suspension, chassis, brakes, exhaust. Basically its all designed to last just long enough to keep people from rioting, and to keep them coming back for more, but not much more than that.

And so within all of these painful details, you will see HUGE variability from one car company to the next. Lots of "similarities" too, yes, but many small differnences that translate into big differences by the time the final product reaches us consumers, even if we don't have the ability to notice the differences.

Toyota and Honda have been known to have the best process in place for years to achieve the balance I described above, and keep customers happy with good value. Things are always changing, Hyundai/Kia have jumped to the top of the pack, Nissan is right up, all manufacturers have made big improvements. Is Dodge/Chrysler quite there yet? I don't think so, they're probably improving and in another 5-10 may be where Honda is, but you never know. All we can do is avoid making bad assumptions, and do our research whenever possible from reputible sources, or draw on our own experience if we have enough of it, like ImStricken.

I take ImStricken's opinion seriously, he clearly stated that its based on imperical evidence - data that he's gathered first-hand over the years by phycically working on these vehicles, observing wear patterns, signs of quality parts etc. I'm not saying he has the final word on the subject, just that what he reports discovering is a valid piece of information.

[kerrton]

Trevor I think you're hinting around the idea that just a total number of "problems" may not be the best way to determine quality and reliability without considering the magnitude of the problem.

This is just it. One of my problems is my hatch struts and is no where near as serious as a CVT transmission failing. Yet they may both be on the same level when it comes to this report.

Of course not, the Nissan powertrain is tough and will last you 200,000 miles before having issues, whereas the Dodge had major powertrain failure early in the vehicles life, and will likely have repeated powertrain failures until someone finally gets fed up and parks it at the auto wreckers before it even hits 60,000 miles.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but would you agree there are many people who would say the same thing about Nissan and their early CVT transmissions? I think it's very reasonable to think that there are many customers that would not buy a Nissan again after their CVT failing. We're talking about an entire brand here and picking out a single model, especially a newly designed one, that experiences significantly more problems than expected can be done with any brand.

The Dodge probably has crap rear hatch struts too but nobody reports it, they're too busy worrying about powertrain failures!

This all goes back to the stats being misleading. I am sure than many owners would have just lived with the hatch struts and said "well it only happens in the winter". And I'm sure there are many Rogue owners that say the same thing. Perhaps a better judge of quality, or a statistic that may be more valuable, would be an indication of the average amount of warranty work performed over a 3 year period. This would eliminate small problems (like the hatch struts) and really isolate major problems (transmission).

Good points Trevor, I agree. Nissan definately did have CVT problems in the 2003 Murano, and to a lesser extent the 2008 Rogue. I'm not arguing that Nissan is better than Dodge in reality, it was just an example. I was basically saying what you're saying, that those stats are not a real good method for ranking reliablity by manufacturer. Good discussion, thanks.

[ImStricken06]

They are produced in a similar fashion

WRONG. not all cars are produced in a similar fashion. have you ever seen the paint on mercedes? as much as i hate mercedes, i have to be 100% and state they have a process unlike any other. the best i would say. have you ever seen the paint on a kia? nissan? toyota? compared to that of a mercedes? totally different paints, painting process, etc. and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

"They use parts sourced from a common supplier"

WRONG. there are many companies that make a common part. take simple sparkplugs: NGK/BOSCH are the top leading brand. then take Champion which is total crap, that dodge and GM and ford use. NGK/BOSCH last 100,000miles, while champion will last 50-60k. thats just the beginning. some companies use delphi parts, some use differeent brand - which last for longer or shorter durations. i cant believe you thinks that one company makes everyone's alternators, another company makes everyones PSpumps, another company makes everyones cv joints, another company makes everyones bushings, another company makes everyones bearings, etc etc etc etc? i guess you think everyone has the same head units? nissan uses clarion & bose. while infiniti uses not only bose, but pioneer as well.

"No company possesses some sort of technology that is not readily produced by another team"

thats so wrong, its not even funny. many companies like say ducati uses a certain type of valve that they patented. some cars use rubber timing belts, while companies like nissan use timing CHAINS(metal). some cars have cvt transmissions, some use 8speed transmissions.
heck, the GTR has one of the craziest AWD designs of them all.

"to think that mechanically a brand is better than another where in this day and age we precisely engineer and manufacture products is absurd."

no offense, but its YOU who is absurd. you honestly think that 1 manufacturer is the same as the other? have you ever realized why certain car-makers have better or worse resale values then others? its not due to design - its due to quality. take toyota/nissan/honda for instance... do you realize why they hold resale value that is higher than say kia/ford/dodge/etc? take a long hard thought and hopefully you come to a conclusion.

I'm all for a discussion on the quality of vehicles but you're going to need to show why you think Nissan engineering is superior to Toyota, Ford, GM, etc.

make no doubt about it - honda makes a better car than nissan; this coming from a nissan gear head. they just do. they use higher quality parts, their manufacturing process has higher standards, and the cars last long because of it. BUT they use timing belts, rather than timing chains = so i stay away from it. toyota has had serious recalls in the past few years... if you were correct at assuming "They use parts sourced from a common supplier" then everyone would have common recalls and issues. but obviously your wrong.

It's easy to pick on general points (like problems with new models for instance) but we're talking about an entire brand here and it seems unlikely that any, in this day and age, possess some sort of magical engineering that makes them better.

If i sat here and took apart every manufacturers cars and why they suck or are better than others - id be sitting for 6 hours. the market dictates the truth. there is a reason why american garbage almost flopped and wiped itself out. people caught on and stopped buying the garbage being produced by the big 3 (ford/Chrysler/GM)

[TrevorK]

PS: Trev, what were you 4 issues, btw?

Hatch struts, damaged rubber molding on delivery (although to be fair this may have been caused by the dealer even though they said "it came this way" however it was repaired under warranty), front bumper was cut improperly from the factory (leaving unsightly lines that don't match) and peeling paint. The bill for all the work so far is well over $2000.

I'm sure the dealer loves me with all that warranty work

[TrevorK]

Good points Trevor, I agree. Nissan definately did have CVT problems in the 2003 Murano, and to a lesser extent the 2008 Rogue. I'm not arguing that Nissan is better than Dodge in reality, it was just an example. I was basically saying what you're saying, that those stats are not a real good method for ranking reliablity by manufacturer. Good discussion, thanks.

Sorry - for some reason I thought you had a bad experience with a Journey

[Rogue One]

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/ ... 44256.html

It's too narrow, focusing on one model year. So what if a particular brand has a problem that year with gas pedals getting stuck (Toyota), or spontaneous combustion (Ford)? Does that impact the current model in any way?

If you go to CarComplaints.com you get a better idea of how people feel about their vehicles, and an overall picture of how well or badly a brand is viewed.
Looking over several years of input, rather than narrowly focused surveys are a lot more telling.
20 Best http://www.carcomplaints.com/best_vehicles/


20 Worst http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_vehicles/

[TrevorK]

And so within all of these painful details, you will see HUGE variability from one car company to the next. Lots of "similarities" too, yes, but many small differnences that translate into big differences by the time the final product reaches us consumers, even if we don't have the ability to notice the differences.

(Just to keep the thread clean I snipped most of your post out, not to be rude)

That's the problem I have with this statement. Any statistical analyst shows that in modern times cars are very close to one another. We can discuss the in's and out's of the manufacturing process but the fact of the matter is all the information we have at hand clearly shows that vehicles are built of similar quality. Some models are better. Some models are worse. But in general the difference between brands is minimal.

Toyota and Honda have been known to have the best process in place for years to achieve the balance I described above, and keep customers happy with good value.

Have they? Do they? What data are we using to show they have the "best process" in recent years? Certainly it can't be sales because Honda isn't that high and GM fights with Toyota for top sales. I'm not trying to start a fight what sort of data is there from recent times to support this?

I take ImStricken's opinion seriously, he clearly stated that its based on imperical evidence - data that he's gathered first-hand over the years by phycically working on these vehicles, observing wear patterns, signs of quality parts etc. I'm not saying he has the final word on the subject, just that what he reports discovering is a valid piece of information.

Not meaning to be rude, but the opinion of someone who has owned a handful of Nissan product and put 150K miles on each of them isn't a valid sample. While it may show what he can expect from a vehicle he owns (as in, what he should expect his next vehicle purchase to be like provided the variables he adds to it are the same) it is not representative of what a typical driver can expect.

As in my example, if we have a courier who logs 400 miles/day on the highway (point A to point B and back) we cannot compare the reliability of their vehicle versus someone who takes part in stop and go traffic on a daily basis to get their mileage. That's why we cannot say "Well Joe had a good experience with his 3 Honda's so I will to" as any sort of valid representation of what I (or anyone else) will expect. What if Joe changed his synthetic oil every 3000 KM? What if Joe drove on roads without potholes? What if Joe never drove his vehicle hard? These are all variables independent to a driver, but over the course of 150,000 miles can make a huge difference in "problems" on a vehicle.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude but when you're dealing with statistics the opinion of one leads to an inaccurate sample.

[TrevorK]

They are produced in a similar fashion

WRONG. not all cars are produced in a similar fashion. have you ever seen the paint on mercedes? as much as i hate mercedes, i have to be 100% and state they have a process unlike any other. the best i would say. have you ever seen the paint on a kia? nissan? toyota? compared to that of a mercedes? totally different paints, painting process, etc. and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Fine, let me qualify (which I didn't think I need to).

Cars in a similar category are produced in a similar fashion. We're not comparing a hand-built car to an assembly line built car. GMs are built in a similar fashion to Toyota's, Lexus to Cadillac, etc. If you're here to debate about the fine details of the process that's just splitting hairs. The same level of details/quality control goes into the vehicles that compete against on another. If it didn't the market wouldn't be as close as it is would it?

"They use parts sourced from a common supplier"

WRONG. there are many companies that make a common part. take simple sparkplugs: NGK/BOSCH are the top leading brand. then take Champion which is total crap, that dodge and GM and ford use. NGK/BOSCH last 100,000miles, while champion will last 50-60k. thats just the beginning. some companies use delphi parts, some use differeent brand - which last for longer or shorter durations. i cant believe you thinks that one company makes everyone's alternators, another company makes everyones PSpumps, another company makes everyones cv joints, another company makes everyones bushings, another company makes everyones bearings, etc etc etc etc? i guess you think everyone has the same head units? nissan uses clarion & bose. while infiniti uses not only bose, but pioneer as well.

[/quote]

Ignoring the fact that you state above that brands share suppliers (you claim Dodge/GM/Ford use Champion plugs) which agrees with what I have said, let's look at a specific example.

How many battery manufacturers are there in the world for car batteries? It seems like you'd be relatively surprised to know there aren't many (as far as I know three in the US). The batteries (while we can argue for weeks on which are produced with more quality I highly doubt either of us has any actual data to support that claim so it's of no use) that are made by Johnson Controls for instance might find their way into an Acura and a Ford.

Batteries are just one example of a manufacturer that supplies parts for multiple brands of vehicles. Another could be panels:
http://www.businessinsider.com/parts-sh ... try-2012-4
At LTC Roll and Engineering Inc. in Clinton Township, Mich., north of Detroit, sales are rising. LTC makes rocker panels, or structural metal pieces that run along the side of cars and trucks, for GM, Chrysler and other automakers.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/parts-sh ... z2L0bcSuuj

(And please, don't spout off "well they aren't making them for Honda" or some silly argument like that because it still goes completely against your thought of parts being distinct to a manufacturer)

While I can easily dig up more examples it begs the question, why? It's clear there are auto components manufactured that are distributed to multiple brands and that's what you think is incorrect.

"No company possesses some sort of technology that is not readily produced by another team"

thats so wrong, its not even funny. many companies like say ducati uses a certain type of valve that they patented. some cars use rubber timing belts, while companies like nissan use timing CHAINS(metal). some cars have cvt transmissions, some use 8speed transmissions.
heck, the GTR has one of the craziest AWD designs of them all.

Do you seriously think that no other company could design that sort of technology if they wanted? Come on, let's be realistic.

"to think that mechanically a brand is better than another where in this day and age we precisely engineer and manufacture products is absurd."

no offense, but its YOU who is absurd. you honestly think that 1 manufacturer is the same as the other? have you ever realized why certain car-makers have better or worse resale values then others? its not due to design - its due to quality. take toyota/nissan/honda for instance... do you realize why they hold resale value that is higher than say kia/ford/dodge/etc? take a long hard thought and hopefully you come to a conclusion.

Honestly, I'm just going to come out and say it. No, it's not me, it's you. You clearly feel strongly about your points where you indicate "WRONG" in big letters yet within seconds I can provide you with links to credible information that supports my point. Where is your credible information?

I'm all for a discussion on the quality of vehicles but you're going to need to show why you think Nissan engineering is superior to Toyota, Ford, GM, etc.

make no doubt about it - honda makes a better car than nissan; this coming from a nissan gear head. they just do. they use higher quality parts, their manufacturing process has higher standards, and the cars last long because of it. BUT they use timing belts, rather than timing chains = so i stay away from it. toyota has had serious recalls in the past few years... if you were correct at assuming "They use parts sourced from a common supplier" then everyone would have common recalls and issues. but obviously your wrong.

It's easy to pick on general points (like problems with new models for instance) but we're talking about an entire brand here and it seems unlikely that any, in this day and age, possess some sort of magical engineering that makes them better.

If i sat here and took apart every manufacturers cars and why they suck or are better than others - id be sitting for 6 hours. the market dictates the truth. there is a reason why american garbage almost flopped and wiped itself out. people caught on and stopped buying the garbage being produced by the big 3 (ford/Chrysler/GM)

[/quote]

Again, this is completely, 100%, an opinion piece from you and in no way, shape, or form has any evidence about why Nissan (or Honda as you point out) is "better". I'm not trying to be rude, but why would your opinion be any more valid than any other internet user?

As I said before, I'm all for discussion but you're going to need to show "why" otherwise it's just your opinion which isn't convincing enough to me unless you can show me your credentials, like a PhD in Engineering, before commenting on a process/manufacturing method.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude but if you are going to call me "wrong" and "absurd" you better have something more than your opinion that you're basing it on otherwise I might as well just say "you're wrong" and leave it at that rather than attempting to have a discussion.

[kerrton]

This is a good discussion. Trevor, one thing I just want to rehash that we are disagreeing on: the fine details ARE important, they're critically important to this entire debate! The fine details in design and manufacturing are what sets apart the good from the bad, and good from the best. Yes all are similar, but its the fine details that are critical to success. Your argument is to ignore the fine details, and state that "they're all very similar and very close in quality". They may be close in quality, but some are better than others, that's what we're discussing, and Honda is better than Dodge because they have the fine details right, Dodge is almost there but not quite and that's the difference between a trouble-free Honda Civic running 200,000 miles and a more troublesome Dodge Journey that blows a transmission at 100,000 miles and has oil consumption issues. You can't see these small differences when you shop for the cars, but it becomes apparent as the cars age.

It's all about the fine details!!

ImStricken that is really well put, I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph.

I think one of the only things that has kept the Big 3 going is brand loyalty, and lucritive fleet vehicle deals. I work for a Government Agency in Canada with a large fleet of vehicles and we are only given Big 3 vehicles as options, no Toyota, Honda or Nissan etc..

[TrevorK]

This is a good discussion. Trevor, one thing I just want to rehash that we are disagreeing on: the fine details ARE important, they're critically important to this entire debate! The fine details in design and manufacturing are what sets apart the good from the bad, and good from the best. Yes all are similar, but its the fine details that are critical to success. Your argument is to ignore the fine details, and state that "they're all very similar and very close in quality". They may be close in quality, but some are better than others, that's what we're discussing,

And this is exactly what I'm having a really hard time with; it is obvious that auto manufacturers use many of (obviously not all) the same supplier for parts. What can set them apart (in terms of quality, we're obviously not dealing with appearance) is the process around putting the vehicle together, testing it out, engineering behind the product, etc.

Where you are coming from, and ImStricken, is that companies do it differently and that automatically means that someone who does it differently does it better or worse. This can't be farther from the truth, because by itself differences do not make things better or worse. There are multiple ways (in terms of process, manufacturing method, etc) to achieve the same end result to a user: a quality product. There is no single way to do this and no best way to do this. The assumption that companies do it differently means that there is a noticeable difference to the consumer is unfounded and purely speculative.

There is absolutely no data, that I know of, to support the conclusion that in this era there are manufacturers (mass production ones) that produce a significantly better vehicle time-and-time again with a noticeably better lifespan. Whereas there is plenty of opinion-based studies (which have their own set of flaws) that indicate the manufacturers are fairly close, which follows with the capabilities provided to them by modern engineering.

While the fine details are important it doesn't mean that their going to make an actual difference to the end user. And that's exactly what I'm saying, the fine details, while different, do not necessarily translate to a better usable product. Most certainly when looking across the lineup of a manufacturer do not really make much of a difference between others.


We can always pick apart a specific vehicle. What about GM's 3.8L problems? What about Nissan's CVT problems? What about Honda's auto transmission problems? But we're talking on a manufacturer-wide scale not an individual model scale. And that's what this is about (as far as I think) is discussing manufacturers as a whole.

I think one of the only things that has kept the Big 3 going is brand loyalty, and lucritive fleet vehicle deals. I work for a Government Agency in Canada with a large fleet of vehicles and we are only given Big 3 vehicles as options, no Toyota, Honda or Nissan etc..

I'm not trying to attack you but it has to be said, all brands have some form of brand loyalty. Are there not Nissan fans? Toyota fans? Honda fans? GM fans? They all have their own fanbase that, for whatever reason, will look towards a specific brand of car first before considering anything else. That's hardly a reason to suggest the big 3 do well.

[ImStricken06]

i have read articles on yahoo.com regarding car maintenance and how to save fuel, etc- and let me tell you; total rubbish. typical journalists doing 15mins of research by briefly interviewing some local mechanic and then confusing his words around when writing an article. (similarly as these so called reporters are doing with guns. they are confusing and twisting so much around to their political agenda and unsuspecting people are eating it up.) so bud, forget your articles that are often written by someone who couldn't tell the difference between a ratchet and an impact wrench. forget your articles who are written by people with obvious agenda's. if they are writing articles that claim american cars have caught up with JDM vehicles - then they are either really-really stupid, or they have an agenda to try and help out the unions by pushing their cars. i speak on almost 15 years of experience- and that includes all makes/models. call your local junk yard, talk to your local mechanics and ask them which cars suffer from what problems. if you can get someone to open up, your mind will be blown. newsflash: american unions have ruined the american car. as i have stated before: the market dictates the truth. there is a reason why american garbage flopped and almost wiped itself out. over the years, people caught on and stopped buying their re-badged gimmicks. it was, is, and will be garbage that is being produced by the big 3 (ford/Chrysler/GM)

and please dont give me examples of batteries or rocker panels as proof of anything. i could careless about batteries or struts or panels or weather stripping for that matter. all of that can be replaced for pennies on the dollar, or in your case under warranty. i want to make sure the engine, transmission, and other drive-train is built properly. just because a nissan and a dodge share the same battery, both have bose audio, and both use dunlop tires, doesnt mean that their drivetrain is anything alike. that doesnt mean their piston rings are the same. there are reasons why mechanics and junk yards know which cars develop which problems at certain mileages. wanna know why? because things under the hood dont change, but rocker panels do!

let me ask you: have you ever worked on a car? and i dont mean just changing your oil - i mean a legit job? have you ever taken a car or a streetbike and built a race-redy vehicle out of it? do you understand the technology behind how an engine works? brakes? suspension? because it seems to me that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. you simply are regurgitating so called "facts" you have read in articles.

[ImStricken06]

american car makers cut corners, used unions that were lazy and over-paid, and in return the car dealers had to use sales gimmicks to sell their pieces of crap.

case in point to the name-game gimmick:
Dodge Caravan
Plymouth Voyager
Chrysler Town & Country
Dodge Mini Ram
Chrysler Grand Voyager
Volkswagen Routan
= ALL THE SAME PIECE OF CRAP. the big 3 prayed upon people to hope the innocent people didnt know that all were/are simply rebadged POS's. people caught on, and thats why the 3 big auto makers plummeted.

[AZhitman]

I'm gonna interject here with a quick FYI.

Until you've been to SEMA for the past 10 years and MET the representatives from the foreign companies that actually manufacture the components (bushings, water pumps, alternators, shocks, etc), don't be TOO certain they're NOT from the same manufacturer. Most actually are.

I'm not talking about supplier, or distributor. I'm talking about the actual factories that MAKE the parts. Very limited.

I don't care what "brand name" is on them, there are only a few companies supplying parts to the major auto manufacturers for each component - and they're more limited than you think. WAY more limited.

Example: Did you know that 1/3 of ALL car manufacturers use alternators AND starters from the same manufacturer? The other 2/3 of manufacturers select from another 3 companies. That's 4 manufacturers to make every OEM alternator and starter.

Fuel injectors? 4 manufacturers supplied the top 90% of all new cars produced. ALL are reputable and solid companies.

Another example: IIRC, there's only 2 or 3 companies that manufacture the wire that becomes a coil spring. By the time it's been shaped, powdercoated, stamped with a logo, and packaged, it's on the shelf as 200 different "brands".

I could tell some horror stories about some of the components in a 2009 Cube / Rogue / Versa / Sentra / Altima (I've disassembled one down to the shell and reassembled). Lots of Chinese-sourced junk, one-time-use-only parts, and things that should be metal but are plastic.

Great discussion, but let's keep it realistic (and on-topic).

[ImStricken06]

I'm gonna interject here with a quick FYI.

Until you've been to SEMA for the past 10 years and MET the representatives from the foreign companies that actually manufacture the components (bushings, water pumps, alternators, shocks, etc), don't be TOO certain they're NOT from the same manufacturer. Most actually are.

I'm not talking about supplier, or distributor. I'm talking about the actual factories that MAKE the parts. Very limited.

I don't care what "brand name" is on them, there are only a few companies supplying parts to the major auto manufacturers for each component - and they're more limited than you think. WAY more limited.

Example: Did you know that 1/3 of ALL car manufacturers use alternators AND starters from the same manufacturer? The other 2/3 of manufacturers select from another 3 companies. That's 4 manufacturers to make every OEM alternator and starter.

Fuel injectors? 4 manufacturers supplied the top 90% of all new cars produced. ALL are reputable and solid companies.

Another example: IIRC, there's only 2 or 3 companies that manufacture the wire that becomes a coil spring. By the time it's been shaped, powdercoated, stamped with a logo, and packaged, it's on the shelf as 200 different "brands".

I could tell some horror stories about some of the components in a 2009 Cube / Rogue / Versa / Sentra / Altima (I've disassembled one down to the shell and reassembled). Lots of Chinese-sourced junk, one-time-use-only parts, and things that should be metal but are plastic.

Great discussion, but let's keep it realistic (and on-topic).

thats all fine and dandy, but like the example i have made above: JDM goes wth NGK, while dodge goes with Champion. small little choice, BIG difference. its amazing how chevy & ford have the highest rates of early misfires due to their garbage coil-packs and engineering. its amazing the coil-pack design that chevy opted with (heat sink on top) and it still misfires constantly. how often has a JDM vehicle under 120,000 miles experienced debilitating misfires????

say what you want, and try and explain that there are only 3 companies that make this, or 2 companies that make that:
there is a reason why japanese cars have the best resale values. there is a reason why junk yards wont even buy a bmw 7 series engine due to their consistent valve-train issues. there is a reason why american brands almost drowned in their own mess. there is a reason why JDM cars like the civic & accord have achieved 200,000miles without any problems(and earned the label of such). there is a reason why exports of used toyota cars have outgrown any other(from U.S. to other countries). you can tell me that the Cadillac northstar failure of an engine used the same coilpacks as the camry, but you cant tell me that they performed the same- because they didnt! you know why? because no one engineer had enough brains to think: "maybe we should take in account the heat range of coilpacks and help air flow to cool them?" THATS the difference between JDm & domestic. i could go on & on about the design failures of domestics.

this convo took a strange turn(breaking down the little parts.) Kerr was right, its not just the large single parts that are being used by the manufacturers; its a collaboration between the parts, the fine details, the QA, the assembly, etc. if honda and dodge had a competition to build the same car out of the same parts = guess what.... the car built by honda would be a higher quality car. you know why? american unions would have not given a crap about quality and making a good product.

and regarding the CUBE, ROGUE, VERSA, SENTRA. its an economy car. what do people expect? if you wanted a higher quality car; you should have wondered why the sticker price was so low! and BTW get used to one time use parts & clips. thats how these companies are saving money, making cars lighter to improve MPG, and just all around cutting corners for profit. after all, who pushed deadlines upon them to make certain MPG by a certain date????

[TrevorK]

i have read articles on yahoo.com regarding car maintenance and how to save fuel, etc- and let me tell you; total rubbish. typical journalists doing 15mins of research by briefly interviewing some local mechanic and then confusing his words around when writing an article. (similarly as these so called reporters are doing with guns. they are confusing and twisting so much around to their political agenda and unsuspecting people are eating it up.) so bud, forget your articles that are often written by someone who couldn't tell the difference between a ratchet and an impact wrench. forget your articles who are written by people with obvious agenda's. if they are writing articles that claim american cars have caught up with JDM vehicles - then they are either really-really stupid, or they have an agenda to try and help out the unions by pushing their cars. i speak on almost 15 years of experience- and that includes all makes/models. call your local junk yard, talk to your local mechanics and ask them which cars suffer from what problems. if you can get someone to open up, your mind will be blown. newsflash: american unions have ruined the american car. as i have stated before: the market dictates the truth. there is a reason why american garbage flopped and almost wiped itself out. over the years, people caught on and stopped buying their re-badged gimmicks. it was, is, and will be garbage that is being produced by the big 3 (ford/Chrysler/GM)

The purpose of the article was to provide you with an example of a company that makes parts for multiple manufacturers since you disputed this doesn't occur. Is it that you do not believe the information in this article is correct? Or do you have a different problem? Because if you do not dispute the accuracy I fail to see what your rant on internet articles has anything to do with what I said.

and please dont give me examples of batteries or rocker panels as proof of anything. i could careless about batteries or struts or panels or weather stripping for that matter. all of that can be replaced for pennies on the dollar, or in your case under warranty. i want to make sure the engine, transmission, and other drive-train is built properly. just because a nissan and a dodge share the same battery, both have bose audio, and both use dunlop tires, doesnt mean that their drivetrain is anything alike. that doesnt mean their piston rings are the same. there are reasons why mechanics and junk yards know which cars develop which problems at certain mileages. wanna know why? because things under the hood dont change, but rocker panels do!

Really? Come on do you know that little about the automotive industry? I gave the example of batteries because it's a pretty cut-and-dry situation with so few manufacturers in the US.

You really don't think drivetrain related components are made by people other than the manufacturers?

Have you heard of companies like Getrag? Dana?

I sure hope so. Do they qualify as making drivetrain components for vehicles?

let me ask you: have you ever worked on a car? and i dont mean just changing your oil - i mean a legit job? have you ever taken a car or a streetbike and built a race-redy vehicle out of it? do you understand the technology behind how an engine works? brakes? suspension? because it seems to me that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. you simply are regurgitating so called "facts" you have read in articles.

Yes I have turned a wrench or two. I'm unsure where you question is going, are you about to tell me that you have formal education in the field? In my country you go to a combination of school/work experience for 4 years to become an actual mechanic. Have you undertaken similar training/education in the US to qualify your mechanical opinion as "better" than someone else?

I notice you edited your post from last night, which I find interesting. The fact of the matter is clear, car manufacturers seek suppliers to build components (some extremely critical) in their vehicles and these suppliers often work with multiple manufacturers. This is the way the business is done.

[ImStricken06]

I am not disputing that dana or texas instruments make components for many car makers. But they make those components based on the specs that car makers want. So not all the components are the same.

Bud you still have not answered why jdm have better resale value and last longer.