Oil & filters

[Q45tech]

http://www.shoclub.com/lubrica...1.htm

Read all 6 parts and thenhttp://www.pecuniary.com/newsletters/microns2. ... /eng62.htm

[PalmerWMD]

Great links Dennis,

I will finish reading them tonite hopefully.

Fred...

[Mayhem_J30]

I have not finished reading yet, so maybe the other links will answer my questions.Part I & II, although it wasn't specifically mentioned, does warrant the question: Should this change the way people think about oil change intervals when running synthetics?The fear of a clogged or collapsed filter seems to great to risk. If they are designed as "3000 mile trashcans" and synthetic users are running up to 5000 miles, that might insist that there's 2000 miles of unfiltered lubrication occuring. Then again, if running synthetics there might not be as much debris to begin with therefore never clogging the filter as soon... But that is also seems to be irrelevant as there are other problems with the filters, like the collapsing filter medium. So it just wears out and falls apart(that's what i at least understood from the article in short) after a set amount of time. I'm sticking with 3000 miles!!

This article so far has done nothing but strike fear in me..as Q45Tech is so good at. I was particularly worried after it was mentioned that an oil filter can be blown out on first start after an oil change because of the cold oil. This part left me with a vagua understanding because I thought the bypass valve prevented entering the filter at lower temps, or maybe that was just at certain PSI over 60. So what would be the safest way to start a car with fresh oil? Wait from all of the car fluids to cool down first? I'm guessing the problem is with the engine coolant being warm and the oil being cold.

I'm sure you're loving this stuff Fred.

[maxnix]

And I would encourage everyone to peruse the link on oil analysis.

http://www.pecuniary.com/synthetics/oilanalysis.html

[Mayhem_J30]

very good reading everybody. took a while to read the intial 6 pages, but VERY worth while. I learned a lot from that.

[AZQ45]

What is the beta micron size for Nissan filters? Hopefully real small...

Are not the Q motors build with tolerances exremely tight - ten-thousandths of an inch for many areas? If so, is it a fair statement the Q motors would be more susceptible to wear given the moderate filtering capabilities of regular oil filters?

[Q45tech]

Well you can safely say that the Q crank and rod bearings go first! This is in line with the articles reference to the smallest tolerances of the SHO V8.

You always hear my old such and such American V8 never had these problems........sure with a 3 times wider bearing gap -- oil filter may not matter much.

You can attack the problem 2 ways: Filter after the fact or don't let the dirt in!Again the factory air filter is different than those made for other Nissan.......unfortunately one that would be low restriction [2" W.C.] at 400cfm and filter 1 micron would need to larger than the engine. {{{even if K&N made it}}}

In the past my test of air filters has been to rub a white paper towel on the MAF protective screen and gauge the dirt........makes a cone filter look pretty bad vs a factory filter.

Current LS400 use a larger thicker round cotton/paper deep pleated expensive filter that has twice the resistance to flow of the Q filter [but probably filters the small stuff better].

Just changed my summer oil [50/50 15w50 and 10w30] back to Mobil 10w30 after 92 days and 3100 miles it was dirty [had used some Quick Flush midway and didn't remove it].

Obviously my 239k engine has more blowby [from seals and rings] than a 60k engine [but it is not noticeable at the oil input port at idle or 2,000 rpm -- probably only at high vacuum transitions 70 mph let offs].

If the factory filter won't keep the oil clean then you change te oil when it turns color. Once thought about making an external garage ULTRA Filtration unit but for $25 worth of oil [hardly worth it]....even $100 per year is not worth the mess....you would have to heat the oil to 200F to get a flow.

An external bypass filter makes economic sense if you think about using it [just move it] on all your future cars.

At 55 hopefully I have 20+ more years to drive and Hydrogen won't be here for another 10 and the engine will still use air and oil.

20 microns = 0.000825"http://www.nissanhawaii.com/Ow...1.asp

What we really need is a really BIG filter system with a 5 times better operation at 0-3,000 rpm then an automatic flip valve to the standard Nissan filter for WOT. Since 99% of the Total life long air flow occurs at maybe a 2,000 rpm average at the highest!

At 60 mph you might suck in 30 x 60 or 1800 cubic feet per hour; at wot throttle you would use 300 times 15 seconds worth or 75 CF.....don't know many that do a WOT quarter mile run each and every hour of vehicle operation.

Is the thought of having another 3 HP at 6,000 rpm and nothing more at 4,000 rpm worth the degraded long term performance of your engine from a marginal filtration filter.

The BMW 1,000,000 miles test was mostly done in the lab so one could assume the air and its filtration [changed every 15,000 or 10 days] was better than a real urban enviroment. Even the outside portion done solo on a race track would be cleaner!

But it sure proves that the car can go 250,000 miles in normal operation just by following the severe oil and all filter changes.

[Q45tech]

One of the techs bought a pristine 134,000 mile 96Q for $1500 unfortunately the 2nd owner for the last 100,000 miles didn't understand the need for oil changes [he admitted he had been bad with the interval exceeding 20,000 miles in a few cases]!

We removed the valve covers and it was black [hard black baked on destroyed oil] a half inch thick. The only thing not covered were the worn cam lobes.

Impossible to clean just too much, plus the blowby is astronomical, every passage was plugged.

Now all we have to do is find an extremely rare 96 US Q motor [not used in Japan---no VVT and OBD2 and less than 9,000 sold in US]......somewhere in the country there will be a wreck we hope.Can't use a 94-95 [illegal] and the smaller 97 is so total different.

Never seeen such a destroyed engine with such low miles.

Guess we can assume 20,000 mile changes are too long and 3,000 are short [for low mileage cars]. If the owner had just had the sense to use Mobil 1 Syn the problem would not have been so severe.He bought the car off lease at 34k for $24,000 and sold it for $1500 after 100,000 miles of use thats $22,500 in depreciation in 3 years..........some how $7500 would have paid for a few oil changes!

[Q45tech]

If Sonny can find an engine for $2,000 [the yards know they are rare....so $$$$$] and maybe get it R&R for $1,000 [hoses plugs, KS valve cover reseals] and spends 2-3 days of his time he'll have a pristine 96Q for say $4,000.He'll have the nicest newest looking car of all of us [at T3] for half price or better.If it had only been a 94 or 95 we found a $1,000 engine [pretty good glut from wrecks].

[PalmerWMD]

I am sorry to hear about Sonny's misfortune.

But I am glad you tell us these little stories, helps teach some good lessons.Otherwise the bad things that can happen with lack of oil changes stay too abstract for a lot of people.

Fred...

PS: If you think he'll remember this customer tell him "Hi" from me.

[PalmerWMD]

Q45tech

How do the clearances and general design features (other than absence of VVT and presence of an oilcooler) compare to the VH45DE?

Thanks,

Fred...

[VimyJ]

What is the beta micron size for Nissan filters? Hopefully real small...

After reading these interesting articles, I am glad to say that I was reassured that my use of Mobil One and Mobil One filters seems to be offer the best protection. I compared (nondestructively) a Nissan filter to a Mobil One once and the Nissan filter looked more cheaply made than the Mobil. I have used the Bosch filter that was praised in one of the articles as it is cheaper than the Mobil but they are hard to find.

I liked the tip about using a thin film of DC4 silicon grease to aid in filter removal. The incredible rate at which the oil is being pumped was also an eye opener for me.

It is interesting that the SHO V6 uses 6.5 quarts of oil compared to the J30's 4.5. Both engines seem to be similar in performance, so why the big difference in oil capacity? Also, as both engines are simarly performing, why does Nissan recommend 10W30 in the J while Yamaha requires the lighter 5W30? Does the Nissan V6 have a better cooling system than the SHO V6 or is this a design element on the SHO that relies more on oil for cooling? Hmmm....

[PalmerWMD]

why does Nissan recommend 10W30 in the J while Yamaha requires the lighter 5W30? Does the Nissan V6 have a better cooling system than the SHO V6 or is this a design element on the SHO that relies more on oil for cooling? Hmmm....

With all other things being equal, a 10w-30 can generally take more abuse than a 5w-30.This holds more so, for non syn mineral oils.Since the viscosity spread is smaller less VI's are needed.

VI can hydrocrack in an engine and cause varnish.One of the largest contributors to varnish in modern engines.Also when less VI's are used, the freed up "space" in the oil formulatrion xcan eb used for more anti-wear, detergent, anti-rust, anti foaming ect additives.Unless in the middle of winter the cold flow advantages of a 5w-30 vs a 10w-30 really arent worth the penalties IMHO.

Fred...

[Jberger]

Any thoughts on AmSoil's by-pass filter system?http://www.amsoil.com/products/bf.html

I've been planning on adding it to my miata, for 2 reasons:1) Filtration, since the supercharger uses a K&N filter it sucks in more dirt. Not to mention the increased amount of air ingested as a result of the supercharger.

2) Added oil volume, it's gotta help in both temperature and longevity of the fluids.

Any thoughts? Thanks for the website Dennis, it was a good read!

[Q45tech]

I wouldn't compare the 3.0 liter J engine to the Yokohama V8 which other than size is more Q like.The 90-96 Q all used the same block, pistons, crank, rods, wrist pins and bearings............the clearance ranges are identicial but the early years seemed to be more precise as they didn't know what they could get away with.That said we have a 94 Q customer with 255,000 miles [lots of highway only miles very little around town] and besides 3,750 generic oil changes it has never need anything internal. Sure it smokes a little but no worse than many 100,000 mile Q I've seen on conventional oil!

[VimyJ]

I wouldn't compare the 3.0 liter J engine to the Yokohama V8 which other than size is more Q like.

Actually, I was comparing the SHO V6 and the VG30DE. If I remember it right, the article stated that the SHO V6 used two quarts more oil than the Nissan V6. Would oil cooling be the main reason? As far as I know, the two engines were designed at about the same time with the VG30DE coming a little later using an existing 3.0 liter V6 block.

[Chally]

Just remember, if you don't change your oil regularly, it doesn't matter what size the holes are in the paper, as they will all block.If the micron size is smaller in an oil filter, it will block sooner, so if you don't change the oil every 3 months or 3,000 miles, then you may be causing un-filtered oil to circulate the engine.

An oil company did a test here & found that in Most engines, the oil filter blocked after 3000Km in a vehicle with above 100,000Ks/60,000Miles, & in a lot of cases, the filter blocked at about 7,000Ks in a vehicle with approx 30-50,000Ks.

You also have to consider, what size rubbish in the oil is doing the most damage? If the filter is too fine & blocks up early, then you will have NO filtration until next service, or with a standard filter, have filtration for a longer period & actually filter the more dangerous particles.

A CEO of a Major oil filter company told me that in the Newer vehicles of today, oil filters aren't required, as the oils are that good now, there is no need for them, & are still there for the comfort & re-assuring of the car owners.Just check the filter sizes on some of the latest Jap cars, they are very small now, to the point you wonder if there is any use in having them, where as the Air filter has increased in size.{(compared to 10-20 years ago)you can't regulate the air quality as well}

[PalmerWMD]

An oil company did a test here & found that in Most engines, the oil filter blocked after 3000Km in a vehicle with above 100,000Ks/60,000Miles, & in a lot of cases, the filter blocked at about 7,000Ks in a vehicle with approx 30-50,000Ks.

WOW!!

3000km=1900 miles

Fred...

[Mayhem_J30]

interesting as this article points out that most filters are just hitting their "sweet spot" by then. But these are probably brand new motors.

[Q45tech]

Why gettng rid of the oil idiot light and replacing it with an accurate oil pressue gauge is so important!If you opt for a 1 psi digital readout accurracy and monitor the temperatue just think of the great graphs you can draw for each oil brand at each hour of use vs temperature and rpm.

Again high mileage on an engine depends on tolerances so on a Q it could be 60k or 120k or 240k vs how it was treated

[szh]

Now all we have to do is find an extremely rare 96 US Q motor [not used in Japan---no VVT and OBD2 and less than 9,000 sold in US]......somewhere in the country there will be a wreck we hope.Can't use a 94-95 [illegal] and the smaller 97 is so total different.

Hi, Dennis.

A few dumb questions from me, since my curiosity is tweaked: why is it illegal to use a 94-95 engine in a 96 model year car? Some government regulation or something else entirely?

Z

[PalmerWMD]

Hi, Dennis.

A few dumb questions from me, since my curiosity is tweaked: why is it illegal to use a 94-95 engine in a 96 model year car? Some government regulation or something else entirely?

Z

I may not be Dennis, but yes.

EPA/DOT.96 and up must be OBDII compliant, previous dont have to be.

Fred...

[szh]

Hi, Fred.

I may not be Dennis, but yes.

EPA/DOT.96 and up must be OBDII compliant, previous dont have to be.

Fred...

Okay, I'll bite . What the heck is OBDII?

Z

[PalmerWMD]

Its an engine control software/hardware standard.mandatory in all 96's and up.

It actually makes engine diagnostics a lot easier also controls emssions parameters better/stricter than OBDI (pre-96).Also limits eninge manufactureres in some of the things they can do for performance.

I am sure Q45tech will add more detail as requested.

Fred....

[Jberger]

OBD On Board Diagnostics

Here's the linkage! ODB Website:http://www.obdii.com/

More ODB Links: http://www.obdii.com/links.html

[szh]

Ah!

Thanks for the info, guys! It is always an enlightening experience being on this site. I guess my 1995 Q (put into service in Dec 1994) is not likely to have ODBII in it.

Z

[maxnix]

You get the cigar!

[Q45tech]

Actually ODB2 engines can [if programmed to do so] make more power at WOT vs OBD1 because the ecu has 3 times the speed and twice the data bus resolution. Enough computer power to measure the air flow and calculate the proper mixture and timing as you wide open accelerate vs the old method of just looking it up in a table for each rpm increment.

Obviously what was correct for a new engine will change as it wears and OBD1 had little capacity to adjust. There is a bank to bank trim, in that each side of the engines injectors [4 at a time] can be adjusted based on history of what the O2 sensors said at cruise but does this relate to WOT...........depends on the cleanliness of all injectors to be correct.

See being too rich has much less effect on power than being too lean! Except for emissions!

2004 or 2005 OBD2++ will measure each cylinder and adjust each cylinder [injector and timing] to optimize emissions.........that is the rub max power and best emissions are not the same.........OBD1 just provided max power less 10% [safety factor] and to heck with WOT emissions [within reason] because WOT was such a short part of the total hours of running.

Without a simple table of values [in ODB1], every minute calculation requires complex alogrithms and lines of code [in OBD2] so it is 50 times more complex and time consumming to modify the WOT process.

But ODB2 can handle EXTRA AIR easily so Supercharging is an ideal process to add power just apply more air and the ecu takes care of the fuel and timing up to a point..........I understand most programmers have agreed to allow up to 20% more than standard sealevel air pressure............so a 333 lb/ft {G35=260}engine has the built in capacity to program up to 400 {G35=312} all you need is a COLD [intercooler] 6psi of boost.

Turbocharging is a serious problem because the EGR is replaced by VVT changes in exhaust cams and ODB2 is extremely sensitive to changes in exhaust backpressure............changing [almost deleting] a cat back exhaust system is ok since the improvement is so minor.

The whole system is about to be redesigned so that remote sensing can poll your ecu [your VIN #] as you pass and report emission non compliance to your state so that tickets can be issued as you pass the sensors driving into a non attainment area.

See owners wait all year [with a MIL on] then get it repaired after they fail emissions.

[Q451990]

The whole system is about to be redesigned so that remote sensing can poll your ecu [your VIN #] as you pass and report emission non compliance to your state so that tickets can be issued as you pass the sensors driving into a non attainment area.

Wow that's scary... think I'll keep driving the 90.

[Jberger]

Ahhhhh, Now I see why you (Dennis) mentioned most V-8's adding superchargers to boost power. It's the ECU Stupid!

I'm a big fan of Supercharging (recommended reading: Supercharged! by Corky Bell The Design, Testing and Installation of Supercharger Systems) but always thought parasitic loss was limiting them from future mass market applications in favor of Turbocharging.

But I hate the heat and maintenance requirements of turbos, so I've kept on the supercharger side given the easy of use and low maintanence.

Dennis, once again, you brought me to the light, thanks!