Obama supporters have unrealistic expectations of his Presidency?

[AZhitman]

Cant see calling our pre war ideas/strategy being anywhere close to 20/20.

The American people, along with congress were strait duped into going into this war.

Scare tactics were employed by this administration on a global scale.

This administration has made a mockery of the law, lied to the US public on a massive scale, falsified documents to support their case for war,

I think people conveniently forget WHO was advising the President and Congress at that time.

A lot of talk of people being "duped", but who were the "dupers"?

And "falsified documents"? Hmmmm... not sure I buy all that.

Don't fall into the witch-hunt mentality. A lot of supposedly really smart people were gung-ho to go after SH and his WMD's, and not all of them were GWB Administration.

Once you get that part sorted out, you'll see why the Left is riddled with hypocritical crybabies who think they "knew better all along".

Bullcrap.

[WDRacing]

If you wanna be mad, be mad at the Gov as a whole. Collectively their best choices have gotten us where we sit today. BTW, it isn't a Republican Congress...you know, those guys that basically have more power then the President when it comes to enacting anything.

Placing blame is foolish and foolhardy.

Our ENTIRE Gov is full of people that are in their "elected" positions because they could afford to run, or had backing by companies that could afford to place them in office, in turn having them in pocket. Been that way from the VERY beginning. It's no different now...

You think Obama is going to be any better? Not gonna happen. Who do you think is going to pay for all his social services? WE ARE...

Don't blame the friggin war in Iraq on the Republicans either...that makes me wanna drive over there and smack the piss out of you. If we didn't have the Liberal whiners restricting who and how we could run the war, it would have been OVER already. But when you strap down the Military with flowers and rainbows it makes it awfully hard to find and kill the bad people. GET IT???

You're either AT WAR or you aren't. This half way BS is why it's taken us since 1991 to get where we are today. WMD aside, has everybody forgot 911? America has the most convenient memory...and it pisses me off. I want the war over as much as the next guy, but I'm not delusional either. I'm not gonna run around pointing fingers AT ONE DUDE, this same dude that is supposedly the most ignorant President we've ever had. Yet he masterminded an multi country invasion...wow.

Sit down, shut up and color. If you haven't served, don't say a thing about the war. You don't know what it's like to know where the bad guy is but not be able to go get him. Or how about loosing an entire Spec Ops team because they are just across the wrong border? I'm talking guys you just shared a beer with...the same guys you're watching via aerial footage get shot to pieces. The same guys that you go get a day later after you finally get clearance to engage. I'm not just making **** up either, those are things I've personally witnessed. I can only imagine what else has happened.

War is hell, Politicians make it hell on Earth. Don't be fooled, everyone had a hand in todays situation...everyone.

[480sx]

So who were advising the Prez/congress at that time? So, because his advisers did this or said that, it lets the executive branch off the hook? How do you justify the use of scare tactics and outright lies to lead us into war?

I suppose like 99 percent of other Americans you dont know the story of Katharine Teresa Gun of the British top secret intelligence community. This is because this story was ignored by the American media, why? Thats for you to decide. She leaked a memo that proved that the NSA under Bush along with the Brits were breaking laws to try to get justification to going to war. Read up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Gun

Heres a site that by itself has little to no credibility, however they cite a few news stories that come from major news outlets.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/...-mind/

Theres simply way to much smoke to discount the possibility of a fire.

[480sx]

If you wanna be mad, be mad at the Gov as a whole.

Done and done.

However, this executive branch has a larger hand in this mess than most anyone else. Again, this problem is deeply rooted however you cant just blame the sheep for the sheperds actions. This is a failure on every level, and there are individuals who are responsible for their actions and choices.

Don't blame the friggin war in Iraq on the Republicans either...

Im not. I am however saying that a large portion of the blame falls directly into the executive branch's lap. I could care less if they were republican or democrats.

If you haven't served, don't say a thing about the war.

So im not allowed to get really pissed off and TALK about the war? The one that my sister got fvked up in? Why the hell shouldnt i be allowed to say something about the war? Simply because a person did not serve in the military doesnt mean they dont have a LOT invested in this war.

War is hell, Politicians make it hell on Earth. Don't be fooled, everyone had a hand in todays situation...everyone.

Agreed.

[ishkabibble]

So, the Left can do one of two things:

2) Keep railing on the Iraq issue and criticize Col. Powell, Sen. Clinton, and the countless other flip-floppers who now conveniently forget they supported the actions taken in Iraq.

I do. I guess that makes me an "Independent" and a "caller of BS on both sides".

You were still duped, though. Don't try to rationalize it away.

[WDRacing]

You can talkk about the war Homie, just don't place ALL the blame on the Bush administration. Want change? Then entire Gov would need to be replaced, from the Senate up.

Like Ish said, we WERE lied to. But those lies and the entire BS process goes all through our current leaders. ALL through.

It's an ugly thing man...

Revolution? Maybe...it hasn't been "for the people" since I've been alive.

[ishkabibble]

The Bush admin is primarily to blame. Dubya and the neocons were looking for a reason to go over there, and they manufactured one. Anyone who believes otherwise either doesn't know all of the facts or intentionally discredits selective facts so as not to disrupt their worldview.

I wouldn't say ALL leaders are full of BS. But the good ones are few and far between. For every Feingold, there are 20 Pelosis.

[WDRacing]

I agree, there are far more liars then there are honest politicians. I also hold Bush accountable, I just freely admit that there have been MAJOR decisions, out of his admin, that have contributed to our long lasting and semi impotent presence in the Middle East.

Did Bush provide false evidence in order to get us over, definitly.

I'm just so unhappy with our current state of Gov that I don't place blame on him, I'm far happier blaming everyone.

[Cold_Zero]

You are right. The war is unwinnable. All wars are when it comes to the US military due to politics and whiners. Same as the war on poverty. Let's stop them both. Shalondra has 5 kids by 5 different babies daddies so we need to admit it's simply too hard and move on.

Show me proof that it is a civil war and not terrorists from other countries coming over and blowing people up?

Come on Matt, wars are un-winnable when you loose more than 30 troops in the operation. Since we have lost more than that in Iraq, the operations have been deemed a failure so we might as well pull out. I guess I scratch my head when I look at WWII and the million or so people we lost in the course of 4 years of fighting.

Oh and you forgot that we need to stop the War on Drugs, the War on Terror. Lets stop them all!

[480sx]

The Bush admin is primarily to blame. Dubya and the neocons were looking for a reason to go over there, and they manufactured one. Anyone who believes otherwise either doesn't know all of the facts or intentionally discredits selective facts so as not to disrupt their worldview.

All im sayen.

I just freely admit that there have been MAJOR decisions, out of his admin, that have contributed to our long lasting and semi impotent presence in the Middle East.

I'm just so unhappy with our current state of Gov that I don't place blame on him, I'm far happier blaming everyone.

Yep. We have destabilized that whole entire region, and if theres going to be one, WW3 will begin in the middle east. It is the powder keg of the 21st century. The main problem is, instead of hating each other(like they have for centuries..) they now hate us.

Everyone shares some blame in this. To long have people sat by and done nothing while their government grows unwieldy and out of control, and now we are left with an epic failure on a nationwide scale. Whats worse, our foreign policy has made it a global problem.

HOWEVER.. There are individuals who hold more blame than most, a lions share if you will. There HAS to be personal accountability in government. This bull **** about blaming the whole government has to stop. Officials need to be afraid that if they break our trust, they WILL be punished for their actions. This is a black and white issue. Right and wrong. We cant simply sit back and let these people walk over us.

It always has pissed me off that in the chain of command, the peon always takes the fall when its rarely his fault. Look at the girl from Abu Graib.. That girl is now a poster child for horrible crimes when in reality, provisions for that kind of treatment came strait from the President of the United States.

The whole system needs to be dismantled, evaluated as to the main cause of the failures, and restructured accordingly.

[Cold_Zero]

JFK, "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

Obama, "Ask not what you can do for your country - because we are going to take care of you."

Obama tells us that it is time for America to pony up and take care of its own.Joe Biden gave around $3,000 to charity last year.Barack Obama doesn't take care of his poor half brother in Kenya and didn't even talk to his half aunt when he was in England.John McCain with one of his 11 homes allows his aunt to live in one rent free.

All three of these men are millionaires, rich in our books. When will you guys wake up and recognize that the Progressive Democrat mantra is "Do as I say not as I do?"

As my five year old Nephew said, "I am not for Obama, I am for America."

[480sx]

Come on Matt, wars are un-winnable when you loose more than 30 troops in the operation. Since we have lost more than that in Iraq, the operations have been deemed a failure so we might as well pull out. I guess I scratch my head when I look at WWII and the million or so people we lost in the course of 4 years of fighting.

Oh and you forgot that we need to stop the War on Drugs, the War on Terror. Lets stop them all!

Seriously, you guys need to let up on the 'blame the libbies for everything' that goes on here daily. Your playing partisan politics, strongly to the right and its not serving anyone well.

Comparing this war to WW2 is a horrible comparison. Talking about German and Japanese aggression immediately threatening the world in a massive way.

The war on Terrorism should be fought and no one is saying that it shouldnt. However, I am saying its being fought in the completely wrong way. In the way that we are fighting now, we are doomed to lose. We cant simply fight a conventional war on terrorism, as we are trying to do. Were spending stupid amounts of time and resources and in the end, all were doing is establishing terrorism as a massive force in the world. We are, unintentionally, feeding terrorism with our efforts to quench it.

The war on drugs? Pfft, costly and epic failure that should be stopped immediately. You know that over 50 percent of all people sitting in jail right now are non violent drug offenders? People still shoot H right? Enough said.

[Cold_Zero]

To be honest Nate, it was the Anti War left that used the comparison to WWII, when in 2006 the rally cry to the polls was that we had been in Iraq longer than we were in WWII.

So it wasn't me that made the initial comparison. But since to the Anti War Liberals the comparison is fair game. We have been in Iraq longer than WWII, and we have lost a hell of a lot less troops in Iraq then we did in WWII.

But serious, I was being sarcastic.

Oh and were are those people now? That were spurred on by the Media to change the course in Iraq by going to the polls and sweeping out the Republicans in 2006 and handing over the control of the Congress to those who will force the White House to withdraw from Iraq? Where the **** is that righteous indignation? Why hasn't Congress stood up to the White House and force it to withdraw troops from Iraq? Where the **** is the media and the voters from 2006 calling for another house cleaning? That is right, we have ADD in this country and can't remember.

I think it was Eisenhower that said we need to be wary of the Industrial Military Complex. I think we now need to be wary of the Political Media Complex that is our mainstream media. And by the way, the mainstream media needs to do some math, they all can't be Obama's White House Press Secretary.

[480sx]

Ahh my fault heh. I miss sarcasm on the net a lot im kinda dense at times, and i dont know you guys that well.

Interesting you bring up ADD and America, truly is quite the phenomenon. I dont know what else to say really, its just mind boggling.

Meh i dont know much about the media establishment, other than preconceived notions that the majority of it is biased and controlled by people with specific agendas.

Lol @ last line.

[Cold_Zero]

Actually, the one thing that I missed in the whole conversation was the fact that during WWII in Europe we were fighting against Totalitarian Fascism. Weren't we really fighting the same thing in Iraq? Heck even Saddam looked up to the Hitler and subsequently Stalin as his idols.

Funny coincidence.

[Cold_Zero]

"We face a hostile ideology global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose and insidious in method..." "we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex... Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." -Eisenhower January 17, 1961.

Man he speaks on so many levels. The war on terror, Islamo Jihad, the war in Iraq and the mainstream media bias.

[480sx]

Actually, the one thing that I missed in the whole conversation was the fact that during WWII in Europe we were fighting against Totalitarian Fascism. Weren't we really fighting the same thing in Iraq? Heck even Saddam looked up to the Hitler and subsequently Stalin as his idols.

Funny coincidence.

Indeed it is really. Its that whole line of thinking behind those regimes that seems to be one of the 'scourges of the earth' if you will.

Although Sadam was only part of our mission in Iraq, IMO a small part. We really wanted a front to fight Terrorism in the world it would seem.

Thats a great Eisenhower quote, man i should do some reading on some of the great presidents in this country. Some of them really were incredible people. It makes me question term limits really. It would seem to me that term limits have caused more crap choices for presidents than anything else.

If you have a chance, read 'The Founding Brothers'. Really an amazing read about all the great politicians that created this nation. Of a wholly different political arena and line of thinking that we so desperately need in this country now.

[audtatious]

Of a wholly different political arena and line of thinking that we so desperately need in this country now.

McCain aint it and neither is Obama. One is worse than the other and it's up to the individual to determine which one. Honestly, hindsight is the only thing that can determine if a President was good or not. Look at Reagan and the constant barrage of negativity he received.

As far as the war I think we should have gone in there sooner. Actually we should have rolled through and taken care of business in '91. For 10 years from that point it was constant "Saddam did this and that" and we were entrenched. We knew he had WMD and we knew he supported terrorists. We were already there so why not make him the initial target of the "war on terror"? FWIW, Bush never claimed he was directly involved with Al Quida anyway so bringing that up is crap. Bush on the aircraft carrier? We had won that mission and kicked Saddam out within 2 weeks. It's afterward where things went screwy and foresight was missing. Bush bungled it from that point until the surge and has bungled Afghanistan at this point as well (granted, that is supposed to be a coalition).

Since the war started we have had a big "hope they forgot" moment about the war. The Dems were behind it regardless of whether they simply thought they had to be or not. They have since started denying it and you've had Kerry, Obama and others make comments about our own troops being killers and rapists. The news media goes rabid any time they can try and prove those very points. It's absolutely sickening.

Now that the surge has worked and violence is down, nobody wants to admit success. The news does not (and never really has) reported on the positive aspects of Iraq and you have people like Obama still saying we are mired down like Vietnam (another war where our troops were winning but the stupid politicians screwed it all up) while secretly asking the Iraqi Gov to not agree on troop withdrawals until after the election.

I'm not some big right-winger but I'm NOT going to sit here and have everything deflected to one person when the fault is with the Gov at large. The Dems seem to think they can get a "pass" and I'm not going to let it happen. They are as guilty as any other group and in some cases even more so. If they were so wonderful then we would have had BIG CHANGE these last 2 years with them running Congress and they have not done a damn thing. Why do I attack the Dems? Because they deserve the crap on their faces too.

[ishkabibble]

FWIW, Bush never claimed he was directly involved with Al Quida anyway so bringing that up is crap.

O RLY?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

I'm not some big right-winger

You're a little right-winger?

[audtatious]

O RLY?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

Interesting. I didn't think he actually made that statement. It's pretty moot since we now know that SH was indirectly helping Al Quida and had in the past even though SH didn't see eye to eye with OBL.

You're a little right-winger?

You'd be surprised. I actually don't take you as being an elitist college graduate Liberal, you just lean that way.

[480sx]

Now that the surge has worked and violence is down, nobody wants to admit success. The news does not (and never really has) reported on the positive aspects of Iraq and you have people like Obama still saying we are mired down like Vietnam (another war where our troops were winning but the stupid politicians screwed it all up) while secretly asking the Iraqi Gov to not agree on troop withdrawals until after the election.

Success? All we are in Iraq is the glue and tape thats keeping the whole country together. The violence is down for a few reasons. First, we are moping the floor with their insurgents, our military is putting a serious hurting on them for sure. We have the boarders much more secure than they were, and the flow of weapons and new terrorists have been nearly cut off.

Second, because the top Al Qaeda realize that we are mopping the floor with their insurgents and have probably stopped pushing nearly as hard as they were a few years ago. Its a situation where they are fully aware that we HAVE to leave Iraq sometime reasonably soon. Why would they keep pissing away men and resources on a war that they cant win? The bulk of that Al Qaeda is simply going to stock pile weapons, and resources and train. When we leave Iraq the **** is gona hit the fan. You really think that Terrorists are going to let that 'democratic', established by the USA government stand? Think Iran and Syria will? Terrorists from around the globe will have a new mission, and wont rest until it is completed.

[ishkabibble]

It's not just us; the Iraqis got tired of the violence and started fighting back against the insurgents.

[WDRacing]

If we ever fully leave Iraq, it will collapse. It's one of the most corrupt Nations on the planet. There will be no lasting peace...I'll give it 2 years after we leave before it's chaos.

We need to buy oil from the Middle East and thats it...period.

[audtatious]

It's not just us; the Iraqis got tired of the violence and started fighting back against the insurgents.

They also have councils trying to work out solutions to problems within the region and with other countries as a whole. It's up to them to work out the sectarian violence issue they have between Sunni and Shia, we've just given them the opportunity to do so.

[smockers83]

Actually, the one thing that I missed in the whole conversation was the fact that during WWII in Europe we were fighting against Totalitarian Fascism. Weren't we really fighting the same thing in Iraq? Heck even Saddam looked up to the Hitler and subsequently Stalin as his idols.

Funny coincidence.

I'm not exactly sure on the reasoning or possibly the logic of this post. Are you just trying to show coincidence or are you trying to draw up similarities in some sort of means of justification? And if one looks up to Hitler and Stalin, they really are f'ed in the head. One would not look up to both as they led very different and very opposite ideals, ones that don't like each other, so much so to go to war over them.

[themadscientist]

If we ever fully leave Iraq, it will collapse. It's one of the most corrupt Nations on the planet. There will be no lasting peace...I'll give it 2 years after we leave before it's chaos.

Are you sure that isn't true in another country?

[Cold_Zero]

I'm not exactly sure on the reasoning or possibly the logic of this post. Are you just trying to show coincidence or are you trying to draw up similarities in some sort of means of justification? And if one looks up to Hitler and Stalin, they really are f'ed in the head. One would not look up to both as they led very different and very opposite ideals, ones that don't like each other, so much so to go to war over them.

Just the coincidence. Nothing more.