Obama/Romney on Science

[AppleBonker]

Honestly, this was a very interesting, though long, read. Especially for someone with a math/science background. Any thoughts on these issues? How well did the candidates actually answer some of the questions? (I'll save my personal thoughts for after more people have read the article)

Scientific American partnered with grassroots organization ScienceDebate.org earlier this summer to encourage the two main presidential candidates--Barack Obama and Mitt Romney--to answer 14 questions on some of the biggest scientific and technological challenges facing the nation. President Obama and Governor Romney have now answered these Top American Science Questions, which you can read below.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... nce-debate

[carloslebaron]

Fortunately, science is based in how much knowledge you can acquire and not so in how much imagination you might reach.

Knowledge is the foundation of science, and in some aspects president Obama shows a huge deficiency on scientific knowledge.

President Obama imagines a human being walking on Mars by 3030, and this is imagination alone. Knowledge is to know that a human being in space for more than six months suffers of a big decrease of red cells, a fast developing of osteoporosis, strong signals of disorientation, a fast degeneration of the body due to the lack of gravity. To send an astronaut to planet Mars wit our current technology is to send him to a sure death in the space ship or at his arrival. The situation is "that bad" that no one knows how to treat a cut in the skin if an astronaut suffers an accident on board...

President Obama takes for granted that global warming is caused by human action, when no one has been capable to prove such a hypothesis -because surely is NOT a theory- due that there are geological records showing past eras with warmer climate on earth...without human intervention as the cause, of course. Beyond this misinterpretation of reality, president Obama is known by having invested millions and millions of dollars in green energy industries that failed the goal of providing clean energy. While this has happened, the US has lost not only jobs but industries that weren't environmental friendly but surely made this nation the nation leader in the world. To "play" with energy is a hard risk, and president Obama's imaginations are surely a bunch of negative incentives that have damaged our economy very bad.

In education, both, president Obama and candidate Romney lack of a straight answer to finally solve this status of being far behind the first position against other nations. The solution is very simple: the student can't pass the test, then the student can't pass the grade. Period.

Both, president Obama and candidate Romney didn't mention the need to discard current accepted theories which under new scrutiny are showing to be as false as an eight dollar bill: the imaginative theory of Relativity -both chapters, Special and General- and the degenerate theory of Evolution. Billions of dollars have been invested based in these two fantasies and it is time to renew science with REAL theories based in REAL phenomena, in REAL physical entities. How it comes that our children still learning about these two great fakes as if they were part of science, is the product of manipulation from someones to obtain profit, not so to spread scientific knowledge.

I can offer ten million dollars to the one who can prove that time exists as a physical entity, that can explain the mechanics of how this time is affected to the point of dilating, and to demonstrate the physical observation of the phenomenon. The same amount of money to the one who can demonstrate -with scientific test and evidential means- the mechanism of the micro-organism turning into a macro-organism by a process called evolution. I can guarantee that no one in this world will collect the reward, and by such, the recognition of these two fantasies called theories must be denied. In order to go forward in science, we must discard everything that is pure imagination, like parallel universes, black holes, etc, etc...

We can't confuse the term "technology" with the term "science", even when they are related. The US has grew up in technology thanks to its great economy and thanks to several people who are capable to increase it. Unfortunately, it has to be recognized that several of these people are not born Americans who studied in public schools but that several of them are foreign people who are selected to live and work in US.

To my understanding, science starts with basic knowledge of things, and always will call for a good education in schools as the essential goal. And as long as education is a failure in public schools, only private schools students will have the chance to become scientists, while several students who are potential scientists but can't afford private education, simply won't make it...because the government policies.

[Marenta]

Did anybody read the comments about Question 14? Did either of them actually answer the question, or did they just both decide to jump onto the "healthcare" bandwagon, or am I just crazy?

I can offer ten million dollars to the one who can prove that time exists as a physical entity, that can explain the mechanics of how this time is affected to the point of dilating, and to demonstrate the physical observation of the phenomenon. The same amount of money to the one who can demonstrate -with scientific test and evidential means- the mechanism of the micro-organism turning into a macro-organism by a process called evolution. I can guarantee that no one in this world will collect the reward, and by such, the recognition of these two fantasies called theories must be denied. In order to go forward in science, we must discard everything that is pure imagination, like parallel universes, black holes, etc, etc...

I love how you're not stating what you mean, but it's implied.

What is light? Is it a wave? Is it a particle? Is it a wavicle? We don't know, but our data suggests that it's pure energy yet reacts as if it has matter. If light bends near black holes, then, time (relative to earth) near a black hole would change. Math, it's crazy!
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/penn ... dimensions

Normally, I wouldn't go to wiki, but, there are tons of references down at the bottom for you to verify, should you choose. Abiogenesis, learn it. And, if you cry about "adaptation isn't evolution" well, you're wrong. Evolution is a series of adaptations passed down to children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2% ... experiment

[AppleBonker]

This is the discussion I was looking for. Carlos, I ignored your post because I have no interest in debating the merits of the scientific discoveries mentioned in the article or the ones the article didn't touch on (where did you pull relativity from?).

Did anybody read the comments about Question 14? Did either of them actually answer the question, or did they just both decide to jump onto the "healthcare" bandwagon, or am I just crazy?

I noticed this as well. It appears Romney was a little closer to an acceptable answer. Though, the question did specifically ask "What actions would you support to enforce vaccinations...?" and he completely missed that part it would seem (though he did mention that citizens needed to take steps to receive vaccinations - he just didn't touch on the enforcement part). The other thing I noticed is that Obama's answers sounded more like they came from his own mouth. Either he just had better writers answering the questions, or he did answer them on (mostly) his own accord.

On top of that, Romney appears to be really pushing the "I'm not Obama" note. It seemed like half of his responses were attacking Obama or his policies in some way. I was more interested in hearing his thoughts on the questions, not his opinion on how Obama's policies relate to the questions.

I'm still working on digesting all of the information, though.

[Marenta]

My take away?

Romney was more for deregulation and getting rid of policy than actually fixing the issues.

Obama really just discussed what he has supported and done while in office that relates to the questions.

Romney was long winded and kinda hit on Obama's policies on every topic. Obama was fairly short and sweet and just really focused on what he's done to support what was asked in the question.

All-in-all, it's pretty apparent that neither one of them has a clear understanding of the science or what the questions were truly asking.

[AppleBonker]

All-in-all, it's pretty apparent that neither one of them has a clear understanding of the science or what the questions were truly asking.

This is true. I was less interested in Obama's answers as he's already had time to demonstrate how he will tackle the issues.

One thing that stuck me as ridiculous was Romney's stance on the global warming question. *For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that greenhouse gas emissions will lead to global warming*. It sounded as though Romney's answer was regulations to limit these emissions are worthless because companies will take their operations to countries where the restrictions don't exist, so we shouldn't worry about them. I have a hard time accepting this answer. From an economics standpoint, I understand his concern (and his prediction about operations moving to other countries). But, just because other countries are perfectly fine with contaminating the environment doesn't mean we should be too. We all share this planet, so if other countries aren't taking care of it I don't see why we should take less care as well.

[stebo0728]

What is light? Is it a wave? Is it a particle? Is it a wavicle? We don't know, but our data suggests that it's pure energy yet reacts as if it has matter. If light bends near black holes, then, time (relative to earth) near a black hole would change. Math, it's crazy!
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/penn ... dimensions

Actually, alot of headway is being made on that question lately. Light is both a particle AND wave, but not in the old sense of "quantum goofiness" that we used to believe. Its being shown that light actually consists of both a wave and a particle, with the particle being "pushed" or "driven" by the wave.

Still need to read this article to comment better on it. But in the mean time watch this cool *ss video about light propagation:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snSIRJ2brEk[/youtube]

[C-Kwik]

President Obama takes for granted that global warming is caused by human action, when no one has been capable to prove such a hypothesis -because surely is NOT a theory- due that there are geological records showing past eras with warmer climate on earth...without human intervention as the cause, of course. Beyond this misinterpretation of reality, president Obama is known by having invested millions and millions of dollars in green energy industries that failed the goal of providing clean energy. While this has happened, the US has lost not only jobs but industries that weren't environmental friendly but surely made this nation the nation leader in the world. To "play" with energy is a hard risk, and president Obama's imaginations are surely a bunch of negative incentives that have damaged our economy very bad.

The primary method of taking a hypothesis and making it a theory is by proving the hypothesis directly or by not proving it wrong over and over to the point that there is no other feasible explanation. In the case of GW, to some degree, both methods were used. We've isolated enough variables to realize that there aren't any known explanations that show why we are in a current trend. We also have plenty of evidence including the understandings of the physical mechanisms by which man made global warming would occur. I've mentioned this before, but the most basic evidence comes from the satellites that measure incoming and outgoing irradiation. Since space is pretty much a vacuum, the only way for energy to enter or leave the planet is irradiation. Neither conduction or convection will accomplish this. Knowing that we are not emitting as much energy as we are taking in, a simple conclusion is that we are storing energy on Earth. It would be disingenuous to believe that none of that energy is ending up as heat in the atmosphere, oceans and ice.

I can offer ten million dollars to the one who can prove that time exists as a physical entity, that can explain the mechanics of how this time is affected to the point of dilating, and to demonstrate the physical observation of the phenomenon. The same amount of money to the one who can demonstrate -with scientific test and evidential means- the mechanism of the micro-organism turning into a macro-organism by a process called evolution. I can guarantee that no one in this world will collect the reward, and by such, the recognition of these two fantasies called theories must be denied. In order to go forward in science, we must discard everything that is pure imagination, like parallel universes, black holes, etc, etc...

Post a bond for $10 million with each of these challenges. There are plenty of physicists and biologists who would want an easy $10M. Hell, it might motivate me to try and understand the subject better. I certainly wouldn't mind having $10M.

[bigbadberry3]

President Obama imagines a human being walking on Mars by 3030, and this is imagination alone. Knowledge is to know that a human being in space for more than six months suffers of a big decrease of red cells, a fast developing of osteoporosis, strong signals of disorientation, a fast degeneration of the body due to the lack of gravity. To send an astronaut to planet Mars wit our current technology is to send him to a sure death in the space ship or at his arrival. The situation is "that bad" that no one knows how to treat a cut in the skin if an astronaut suffers an accident on board.......

President Obama takes for granted that global warming is caused by human action, when no one has been capable to prove such a hypothesis -because surely is NOT a theory- due that there are geological records showing past eras with warmer climate on earth...without human intervention as the cause, of course. Beyond this misinterpretation of reality, president Obama is known by having invested millions and millions of dollars in green energy industries that failed the goal of providing clean energy. While this has happened, the US has lost not only jobs but industries that weren't environmental friendly but surely made this nation the nation leader in the world. To "play" with energy is a hard risk, and president Obama's imaginations are surely a bunch of negative incentives that have damaged our economy very bad.

In education, both, president Obama and candidate Romney lack of a straight answer to finally solve this status of being far behind the first position against other nations. The solution is very simple: the student can't pass the test, then the student can't pass the grade. Period.

Both, president Obama and candidate Romney didn't mention the need to discard current accepted theories which under new scrutiny are showing to be as false as an eight dollar bill: the imaginative theory of Relativity -both chapters, Special and General- and the degenerate theory of Evolution. Billions of dollars have been invested based in these two fantasies and it is time to renew science with REAL theories based in REAL phenomena, in REAL physical entities. How it comes that our children still learning about these two great fakes as if they were part of science, is the product of manipulation from someones to obtain profit, not so to spread scientific knowledge.

I can offer ten million dollars to the one who can prove that time exists as a physical entity, that can explain the mechanics of how this time is affected to the point of dilating, and to demonstrate the physical observation of the phenomenon. The same amount of money to the one who can demonstrate -with scientific test and evidential means- the mechanism of the micro-organism turning into a macro-organism by a process called evolution. I can guarantee that no one in this world will collect the reward, and by such, the recognition of these two fantasies called theories must be denied. In order to go forward in science, we must discard everything that is pure imagination, like parallel universes, black holes, etc, etc...

We can't confuse the term "technology" with the term "science", even when they are related. The US has grew up in technology thanks to its great economy and thanks to several people who are capable to increase it. Unfortunately, it has to be recognized that several of these people are not born Americans who studied in public schools but that several of them are foreign people who are selected to live and work in US.

To my understanding, science starts with basic knowledge of things, and always will call for a good education in schools as the essential goal. And as long as education is a failure in public schools, only private schools students will have the chance to become scientists, while several students who are potential scientists but can't afford private education, simply won't make it...because the government policies.

Please tell me that you were being sarcastic. If you weren't go take a couple of science classes and then come back to this discussion.

Also, private schools are not the only ones capable of being scientists, please go look up a retired AP class exam, such as Physics C, online and then I'll listen to your input on how dumb my students are.

Your because government argument is purely ummmmmm a "theory".

[bigbadberry3]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand go http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/p ... cs_cem.pdf

Public school students are quite intelligent.

PS: Private schools always have an advantage over public schools when it comes to testing as private schools can choose their students....

[AppleBonker]

Please don't pay attention to carlos. No need to get this thread sidetracked too. The debates about the theories he's questioned have been had in plenty of other threads. I've I'm not mistaken, he didn't come to terms with them there, either.

While I'm sidetracked, I took the AP Physics exam ^, berry. I got some college credit out of it too. Public school on top of that.

So did anyone else find Romney's response to the GW question a bit concerning? "They're doing it, so we might as well too"?

[bigbadberry3]

Please don't pay attention to carlos. No need to get this thread sidetracked too. The debates about the theories he's questioned have been had in plenty of other threads. I've I'm not mistaken, he didn't come to terms with them there, either.

While I'm sidetracked, I took the AP Physics exam ^, berry. I got some college credit out of it too. Public school on top of that.

So did anyone else find Romney's response to the GW question a bit concerning? "They're doing it, so we might as well too"?

Taking it on the tangent were did you take AP B or C, and if C, mechanics, or EM + Mechanics?

I'm concerned with energy independence. Opening our own reserves is a very short term band aid that puts us further behind because we become reliant on others to develop new tech.

[carloslebaron]

I wonder if the questions were answered in person, this is to say, that they were asked and answered in a dialogue, or, if the questions were sent to them and the answers were given back after a day or two...or more.

The 10 million dollars stand. Invite your best physicist, call your greater evolutionist, they WON"T BE CAPABLE TO COLLECT THE REWARD. This is how sure I am that these so called theories are nothing but crap to the square.

About global warming, yes, satellites and computers can detect the factors that foment the warming tendency in the last years, but surely can't prove that human action is the cause, because the satellites are detecting the current tendency but have no records at all of the former status, this is to say, there were no satellites in space obtaining data before the industrial era. So, only geological records can be used, but these records can't explain the causes as well. As I mentioned in a former post, planet Mars is also having the ice in the poles disappearing in the last years, this phenomenon was noticed since they were detected. And no one is proliferating pollution in Mars, unless the Martians are invisible dudes for us using invisible fuels that cause their global warming as well. For this reason, the answer from candidate Romney is much more accurate.

Something that nobody objected right above is that knowledge is the key for science and technology, but knowledge is distributed around the students with injustice. Several students receive so poor education because public schools are not fulfilling their job of bringing a methodic and ordered curriculum and pedagogy that can originate successful students.

This is the reason why the US students are below the 30th position in comparison with other countries, because the poor education methods, the disastrous tendency of passing students grades without earning them. The public education system is a fake as a provider of better students in the future. Comparing private schools with public schools, one can notice the difference; students from private schools have greater chances of success in any career.

But, this is not a problem that starts in school but at home. Today's parents of public schools students don't care much about guiding their children in their studies, because knowing a lot or knowing nothing, the students pass the grades anyway. And THIS is the problem, and neither president Obama, nor candidate Romney, and least the parents will do anything to solve it.

So, both candidates to the next elections can bubble as much as they want, but they won't fix public education, so we will have less American born scientists but surely more and more foreign scientists living and working in the USA. Neither president Obama nor candidate Romney answered the question about science in schools with a realistic approach. You can't go fast if the route is unlevel and with mud as the current public education system is, so their answers were projected in base of an imaginary modern highway, a far away from reality public school status.

So, the future of science and technology in US is "secured" anyway, but at the cost of leaving our public school children behind and cutting off their opportunities to become men of science...was like this before when kings, emperors and dictators ruled the nations...when only a privileged class dominated science and arts?...The answer is yes, and this demonstrates that democracy is not a great thing when we focus in these aspects of human knowledge and social status.

The answers given by president Obama and candidate Romney do indeed show the current status in science and technology, but won't fix anything from its root... the crude reality is that we are not having dependency on foreign energy alone but we are also increasing the dependency on foreign brains to take care of our science and technological advances... the last administrations including president Obama's are just doing a cosmetic job when we talk about a greater education for all...

[bigbadberry3]

Something that nobody objected right above is that knowledge is the key for science and technology, but knowledge is distributed around the students with injustice. Several students receive so poor education because public schools are not fulfilling their job of bringing a methodic and ordered curriculum and pedagogy that can originate successful students.

A one fit all pedagogy would be worth billions. No sarcasm.

[bigbadberry3]

This is the reason why the US students are below the 30th position in comparison with other countries, because the poor education methods, the disastrous tendency of passing students grades without them earning them. The public education system is a fake as a provider of better students in the future. Comparing private schools with public schools, one can notice the difference; students from private schools have greater chances of success in any career.

Link actual peer reviewed journals or articles to this please.

I'll already counter your private schools>>>> public schools as again, private schools are allowed to pick their students. Public high schools accept all and have to test all. Go look at sub groups and their impact on standardized testing in a public school and then go and contrast it with a private school.

[bigbadberry3]

I wonder if the questions were answered in person, this is to say, that they were asked and answered in a dialogue, or, if the questions were sent to them and the answers were given back after a day or two...or more.

The 10 million dollars stand. Invite your best physicist, call your greater evolutionist, they WON"T BE CAPABLE TO COLLECT THE REWARD. This is how sure I am that these so called theories are nothing but crap to the square.

As to your actual science point, even though it is now a tangent in this thread, relativity is one of the most sound theories in existence today.

[carloslebaron]

I wonder if the questions were answered in person, this is to say, that they were asked and answered in a dialogue, or, if the questions were sent to them and the answers were given back after a day or two...or more.

The 10 million dollars stand. Invite your best physicist, call your greater evolutionist, they WON"T BE CAPABLE TO COLLECT THE REWARD. This is how sure I am that these so called theories are nothing but crap to the square.

As to your actual science point, even though it is now a tangent in this thread, relativity is one of the most sound theories in existence today.

Sure, prove that time exists and show the mechanism of how time dilates with the speed of objects. TEN MILLION DOLLARS is the reward. No propaganda is necessary here, I stand that relativity is a fake not a theory, and unless you can collect the reward by proving time as a physical entity, your words are not credible at all.

We can open a thread for this matter, and let this thread with the current topic intact. Still, I do enjoy that no one will ever collect such a reward

[bigbadberry3]

Sure, prove that time exists and show the mechanism of how time dilates with the speed of objects. TEN MILLION DOLLARS is the reward. No propaganda is necessary here, I stand that relativity is a fake not a theory, and unless you can collect the reward by proving time as a physical entity, your words are not credible at all.

We can open a thread for this matter, and let this thread with the current topic intact. Still, I do enjoy that no one will ever collect such a reward

Uh. Are you serious? Time dilation occurs all the time. (See what I did there?)

It's common place in technology as simple as GPS satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

I'd like that made out to cash.....

[AppleBonker]

Carlos, part of your response was on topic, so I'll answer it. The questions were sent to the candidates and they returned them at a later date. It is possible the answers came from writers.

Berry, PM sent and ^ that information has been given to Carlos before. I think C-Kwik actually went through it all. Save your energy.

[Marenta]

You cannot help those that do not wish to help themselves.

[C-Kwik]

About global warming, yes, satellites and computers can detect the factors that foment the warming tendency in the last years, but surely can't prove that human action is the cause, because the satellites are detecting the current tendency but have no records at all of the former status, this is to say, there were no satellites in space obtaining data before the industrial era. So, only geological records can be used, but these records can't explain the causes as well. As I mentioned in a former post, planet Mars is also having the ice in the poles disappearing in the last years, this phenomenon was noticed since they were detected. And no one is proliferating pollution in Mars, unless the Martians are invisible dudes for us using invisible fuels that cause their global warming as well. For this reason, the answer from candidate Romney is much more accurate.

Actually, we can tell what is causing the change. That is, the satellite data shows the areas of the EM spectrum that has changed are exactly in the range where CO2 and Methane cause diffraction. That's a pretty solid piece of evidence when compared to what we can calculate our usage of CO2 to be. And since CO2 emissions levels have not been static (that is we are increasing our rate of emissions globally), the relationship is actually pretty solid. This is in addition to all the other evidence presented. Wanna discuss this further, start a new thread.

Wanna be serious about those $10M challenges, put up the bonds. Forgive me if I don't believe you actually have that kind of money.

[themadscientist]

I will offer an assortment of pocket lint for whoever can determine what Carlos is smoking.

[C-Kwik]

It probably IS pocket lint.

[themadscientist]

Bob Marley's pockets, yes.

[szh]

Sure, prove that time exists and show the mechanism of how time dilates with the speed of objects. TEN MILLION DOLLARS is the reward. No propaganda is necessary here, I stand that relativity is a fake not a theory, and unless you can collect the reward by proving time as a physical entity, your words are not credible at all.

We can open a thread for this matter, and let this thread with the current topic intact. Still, I do enjoy that no one will ever collect such a reward

We are not going there again. Plenty of scientific proof, and plenty of actual gadgets (like GPS) that rely on that proof. Put it in writing and I will sue you to collect and win in court.

Arguments about time and relativity from you are officially cause for me to edit your posts about them and toss them out.

Lump it.

Z

[IBCoupe]

Sure, prove that time exists and show the mechanism of how time dilates with the speed of objects.

Define "proof."

[bigbadberry3]

Fire on an airplane? Quick open a window and yell out for a clue!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/2 ... ore-easily

[themadscientist]

holy crap, he actually said that.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

I find it funny people are trying to say it's just his style of humor and the comment was made "sarcastically". If this is the caliber of presidential candidates the republicans have to offer, GET READY FOR SOCIALISM bishez.

[themadscientist]

Somewhere a village is missing its idiot.