Minmey15 wrote:Evo and GT-R, those two are ultimate handling machine, but I experience brake fade more than other cars on downhill due to its weight. Uphill, it was sweet!!

EVO and GTR aren't even in the same league. League, hell it's not even the same sport....

Okay... I guess I see what SBD was trying to say...

Sentientbydesign wrote:Yeah! What Minmey15 said.

I love my G and all, but it's never the type of machine that Jacko makes it out to be.

I think his "Little Nissan" is an 80s Sentra!!!

Yep! I love me Skyline! I love its history, and am a proud owner! The best car is the car you like. But it is very important that you understand your car for what it is.

S15 Silvia was a real drift machine. I also loved R32 Skyline. Those were real fun and nimble! Other than Nissan, I loved FC. But since I am older now, I am in love with my V36.

Minmey15:

A good driver should never think of brakes. The only brakes they should ever worry about is how they regulate their throttle input and response--this is your best brakes and this is how I drive. My brake fade experience was because that was my first time going to those speeds on my circuit. I hate to use breaks when I am going through curves. Instead I time and regulate my throttle inputs depending on the curve and tha nature of the tangents on the curve. Braking makes driving too easy and they can be dangerous on curves at high speeds, as they can cause spin outs. Just my personal experience.

Sentient:

It depends on how one drives the G-35 Coupe

Beancooker:

Nice advice!

Jacko3 wrote:Sentient:

It depends on how one drives the G-35 Coupe

I'm not referring to driver's ability, or driving characteristics. I'm simply stating that the G35 is a beautiful compromise, not the ultimate driving/handling machine.

I don't think you'll find another member who disagrees with me.

Sentient:

Certainly, it is not the ultimate driving machine. I never said so. I only suggested that the handling, power, and comfort, is one of the best balanced. Any driver wants a car with all these factors well balanced.

I can't say the same for any of the hotrods in the category of the G-35. It is an extremely stable vehicle under speed and in turns and twists. Again, I have a RAS, which may be behind the stability I talk about.

Jacko3 wrote:Minmey15:

A good driver should never think of brakes. The only brakes they should ever worry about is how they regulate their throttle input and response--this is your best brakes and this is how I drive. My brake fade experience was because that was my first time going to those speeds on my circuit. I hate to use breaks when I am going through curves. Instead I time and regulate my throttle inputs depending on the curve and tha nature of the tangents on the curve. Braking makes driving too easy and they can be dangerous on curves at high speeds, as they can cause spin outs. Just my personal experience.

If we are talking about performance driving (perhaps with competition in mind), then braking is at least as important as handling and acceleration. In fact, most racecar drivers will say that races are won and lost in the braking zones. Passing is usually initiated in a braking zone. Even in time trials, nailing the braking point and holding it at impending lock-up will decrease laptimes as much as a good line through a curve and accelerating out of a turn at the threshold of traction. Add to all this, that trailbraking is a very important technique used to create good initial turn-in entering a turn and you'll really get a sense that braking isn't just about slowing down.

C-Kwik wrote:
If we are talking about performance driving (perhaps with competition in mind), then braking is at least as important as handling and acceleration. In fact, most racecar drivers will say that races are won and lost in the braking zones. Passing is usually initiated in a braking zone. Even in time trials, nailing the braking point and holding it at impending lock-up will decrease laptimes as much as a good line through a curve and accelerating out of a turn at the threshold of traction. Add to all this, that trailbraking is a very important technique used to create good initial turn-in entering a turn and you'll really get a sense that braking isn't just about slowing down.

C-Kwik:

I agree with much of what you have said. Yes, feeling the weight of the car and the handling the Gs without making a mistake in curves, is deadly important. When i go to my special track to flog my car, i don't come back in the same sitting position. and my head feesl oozy when I get back from the back and forth of turning.

As for the breaking, I use it sparingly and when i do I, worry about when and where to step on it and to what degree. Right now, I am able to achieve the turns and twists with less break as I use the shifter to break the car before I enter the turn. I have perfected the angle of entry and accleration into a curve. I am still working n the braking aspect, which i still find not so useful at this time. For now, i am happy I am able to achieve a routine 9* mile mark as I enter these turns. My goal is to reach the 1** mark in these turns to really see how this car handles. So far, the Nitrogen in my tires has been a great assist in that effort. Wonder how long my tires will last?

Jacko3 wrote:Minmey15:

A good driver should never think of brakes. The only brakes they should ever worry about is how they regulate their throttle input and response--this is your best brakes and this is how I drive. My brake fade experience was because that was my first time going to those speeds on my circuit. I hate to use breaks when I am going through curves. Instead I time and regulate my throttle inputs depending on the curve and tha nature of the tangents on the curve. Braking makes driving too easy and they can be dangerous on curves at high speeds, as they can cause spin outs. Just my personal experience.

Jacko,

Now you've proven that you don't drive that fast. Thorottle control is very important, but no one can drive fast without fully controlling brakes.

I guess it all makes sense now. You sounded like you drive crazy fast at twisty, yet you have never experienced brake fade. And you drive V35.. I was puzzled, but your statement suggest that you have never gone up to the speed where require braking.

Jacko, we have been talking about the speed where you need brake to transer the weight. Throttle is one way to transfer the weight, but braking is, too. Like C-Kwik is saying, not just slowing down.

You can drive up to certain speed by throttle, but after certain speed, you need to use brake to transfer the weight. I guess speed range we are talking about have been different all along.

Jacko3 wrote:Sentient:

Certainly, it is not the ultimate driving machine. I never said so. I only suggested that the handling, power, and comfort, is one of the best balanced. Any driver wants a car with all these factors well balanced.

I can't say the same for any of the hotrods in the category of the G-35. It is an extremely stable vehicle under speed and in turns and twists. Again, I have a RAS, which may be behind the stability I talk about.

Actually, you have been saying that 350Z and G35 coupe are made for tracks and twisties, and it was developed to turn. That sounds like an ultimate handling machine to me. And sentinent and I have been disagreeing with you. We have been telling you that it"s a perfect accord of performance and comfort.

But if you learn how to use brakes, then you would be able to drive faster than you can imagine.

JackoYou should join a club and go learn to autocross or roadrace.Try http://www.nasaproracing.com They have a great website with all the info You need to begin,and it is the cheapest and safest way to get track time ,and have LEGAL FUN.You will have an instructor sitting next to You.That person is there with You because They want to share their experience with You, and insure that You learn to Your best abilities, so You can be safe and have fun.There is no comparison between the street and a racetrack! Learning on the racetrack will make You a better driver on the street, and You will then understand all the dynamics of motion that C-KWICK is talking about.Trying this stuff on the street is dangerous, because,You are inexperienced,could hurt another person,and the streets have potholes,and other imperfections that could cause You to lose control of the car.Race tracks have all the safety support You need,are smooth and built for speed and traction,and welcome You to drive fast and be safe, and have fun.They are there for people like You JACKO!!!!!!!!!I hate to say this,because I dont want You to get hurt or hurt somebody else,AND THIS ADVICE IS FOR THE RACE TRACK ONLY,but if You are not using Your brakes,You are not going fast enough!And downshifting to slow the car down is great on the street,but will cost You too much time.On the race track,You are downshifting at the same time as You are braking (right before a turn),so that You will be in the lower gear to accelerate out of that turn.The threshold braking that C-KWIK is talking about,is the point right before the brakes will lock up.So heres how it works....You go as fast as You can approaching a turn,brake to the point right before You lock them up and at the same time downshifting to a lower gear,then off the brakes as you accelerate through and out of the turn.Using the brakes to rotate the car,is only for those with a lot of experiance.It is done by a combination of over braking enough to slightly lockup and skid, and a weight transfer to the front of the car.Too much pressure on the brakes here ,and Your spinning off the track.The brakes are also used to "settle" the car.This is when You apply the brakes lightly , which will compress the suspension,giving You equal traction on all four tires.Even if This all sounds confusing now,it will come to You as You gain experience.You have to learn by doing it.But You need to learn this stuff in a safe envirinment.Like I said before,Im kind of afraid to tell You all this,because I dont want You to try this and get hurt,but I think it's important that You understand this stuff ,I urge You to join a club and learn on the race track .

Modified by oldandslow at 4:54 AM 4/30/2008

Modified by oldandslow at 5:04 AM 4/30/2008

Modified by oldandslow at 5:55 PM 4/30/2008

Modified by oldandslow at 5:58 PM 4/30/2008
Modified by oldandslow at 6:00 PM 4/30/2008

Minmey15:

I have said a ton of things on this forum that sounds crazy and somewhere somehow, turns out a whole load of other folks experience the same things. I am sorry, I am not one for group think. If all drivers drove the same, there will never be winners on the track. The techniques stated here are strictly for the parties who stated them and their preference. I am not a group think robot or machine. I insist on the techniques stated as it applies to the G-35 Coupe. Perhaps what you have said applies to other cars that are built differently. So, to each his own.

And by the way, think about your comments for a little while, why must driving a race car involve brake fade? I understand brake and tire locking, but not necessarily brake fad. Because many beleive in traditional methods of driving, they will never be free to try out something new on the G-35 coupe. Good drivers are willing to try something new.

Mr Hamilton and Mr Schumacher do not drive the same way, and yet they both have won pole positions on Formula 1. And, I have never give anyone the sense and impression that I am traditional in my thoughts and opinions, have I? To that end, once again, when one make these comments, think about Jacko--I don't fit in that box others might think, and never will. So, to each his own methods of driving.

And what has driving a V35 and V36 have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that driving V35 is less challenging than V36? What has one got to do with the other? Again, another traditional method of perceiving drivinig. I like you critique, and they do make me think atimes.
Modified by Jacko3 at 7:45 AM 4/30/2008

Minmey15:

You said, "Jacko, we have been talking about the speed where you need brake to transer the weight. Throttle is one way to transfer the weight, but braking is, too. Like C-Kwik is saying, not just slowing down.

You can drive up to certain speed by throttle, but after certain speed, you need to use brake to transfer the weight. I guess speed range we are talking about have been different all along."

So what do you call fast---30 miles per hour, 90 miles per hour, 100 miles per hour? Mind you, on the road I am talking about, I don't come of any corners at less than 70 miles per hour. So, you can imagine hoiw much more faster I was actually going out of tyhe corner.

I understand very well how to transfer weight with breaking and throttle. I just prefer to use the throttle which I find more predictable, however, it requires more precise timing. With the braking method, especially with the G-35 Coupe, its rear can easily give way. With another type of car, this may not be the case. My driving depends on the car I am driving and not on any traditonal laid out plan. I drive with the car and not with what I have been told. Each car handles differently.

oldandslow:

All the braking coments you mentioned is well understood. My little Nissan which is much lighter than G, handles well with brakes through corners. In fact, without brakes, I couldn't even fly through those corners with that car. With the G-35 Coupe, it is a different story. My G -35 Coupe is able to fly through those same corners at 90 miles per hour with less braking and more downshifting, whereas my little Nissan does the same thing at 80 miles per hour but with more braking to transfer weight. Trust me, I know exactly what you are saying. However, you cannot apply your methods solely on the basis of traditional driving techniques, without taking into account, the particular car you are driving. You can't drive different cars, the same way. The driver has to be connected to the spirit and nature of the car, before he decides what methods will best suit the car under similar conditions. To this end, my comments were mostly for a G-35 Coupe, especially with those that have a RAS. Those without RAS will probabaly need more breaking than a G-35 without RAS. A driver that is not connected to the soul of the car, will kill themselves in a heart beat.


Modified by Jacko3 at 7:46 AM 4/30/2008

Jacko3 wrote:Minmey15:Mr Hamilton and Mr Schumacher do not drive the same way, and yet they both have won pole positions on Formula 1.

While it may be true that no two drivers have identical techniques, I can GUARANTEE you that ALL successful drivers, in the category to which you refer as well as others, utilize their brakes to the greatest degree possible, as the brakes are every bit as big a tool as the accelerator, the gear selector, the steering wheel, etc. Not one single race car driver has won anything by simply adjusting the throttle and down shifting into corners, with the possible exception of dirt track drivers.

I've stayed out of this thread, but reading it daily. I agree with you BiGWill (nice to see you on more btw) that brakes are equally as important. Hell ask Gwoods about huis last track experience aand his brakes... I think some of them practically melted!!

Yeah Sean... I don't get as much chance to post as I would like, but when I do, I try to blast it!

Regarding the brakes, I was really glad to read Beancookers input on fluid. I don't track my car, but I do occasionally test the limits of the brakes going into curves on the freeway, and have experienced a bit of fade. I'm excited to get my fluid flushed and replaced with the ATE DOT 4!

Big Will:

Without a doubt, brakes are important. And also don't forget that some race drivers have been unsuccessful because they used the brakes in places they ought not to have done so, on the race track.

In so saying, my comments were specific to the G-35 Coupe and not to any other car. Certainly, brakes may play a larger role in how successful other cars behave, but so foar, I have found that to be untrue with the G-35 Coupe, especially those without RAS.

What I have found to be the one of the most important aspect of the G-35 in terms of handling, is the quality of the tires on the car. The OEM brake pads are plenty capable for the car inspite of its weight. Again, this is just my experience. I cannot speak for others.

When I used to have the Bridgestone Potenzas on my car, not once did I experience brake fade. The tires limited my capabilities greatly, as I have come to discover.

When I switched to Toyo Proxes T1Rs, it improved. And then, I finally took the plunge into Nitrogen, and it improved some more. This set up helped me gain more speed coming out of turns such that when I now apply my brakes when I get to the end of the track and I am ready to turn around, I find that I need that much more force to slow down. This was where I experienced the brake fade. On the turns, the tire was amazing as i needed less braking in the turns as a result of the tire and the nitrogen in it. Perhaps, the curves are not tight enough to require the type of braking you may be referring to.

What I am saying here is that the set up of the car should determine how much brake or throttle, or steering is required in any race. For the same car, with a different set up, I might end up using more brakes than normal.

My current set up allows me to cheat in turns and not use that much more brakes. However, i still agree that brakes are important, only to the extent of the car's set up. The car's set up is vitally important. As my car's set up changes with time, it will determine how much more braking I will need. I can bet that with a stiffer sway bar, I may be able to achieve speeds of 1** miles per hour in those same corners that have limited by current speeds to 9*miles per hour. Again, as the set up changes, it will change the way the car handles around those curves. This is all I am saying. I am not denying the importance of brakes in any shape, form, or fashion. Brakes don't win races--they assist. Drivers are the ones who win races.


Modified by Jacko3 at 10:32 AM 4/30/2008

Who thinks the factory brakes are fine the way they are? Telco, stay out of this one! lol

I think the factory brakes are adequate for normal street driving. The Hawk Pads that I have on the rears seem to be a little nicer to the rotors than the Infiniti ones were. But I'm used to brakes that bite and put your suspension on check, not ones that merely slow you down.

Minmey,

Please don't take this as me tell you what to do, but you'll soon find that debating with Jacko is like trying to look at the back of your head without a mirror. You keep turning, but so does it.

What scares me is that we have a huge following of readers who aren't members and who probably are new to cars. If any of them take Jacko's comments at face value, they could run into some serious problems.

Sentientbydesign wrote:

Who thinks the factory brakes are fine the way they are? Telco, stay out of this one! lol

OK LOL

Jacko3 wrote:G-Whizz:

I agree! . However, I need this circuit to remain a secret and pristine so that I can go out there without being hassled to test any mod or snake oil or whatever the mazines or aftermarket people claim.

Stupid. If a road is that secluded, its usually not in good condition or a dirt road. Post some pics or video, its not like we're all going to flock to this one area just so that you can't go there...that's a 3000 mile drive for me.

Sentientbydesign wrote:Please don't take this as me tell you what to do, but you'll soon find that debating with Jacko is like trying to look at the back of your head without a mirror. You keep turning, but so does it.

Nate..... that is the funniest, (and most on the mark), thing I have read all day!! (And exactly why I stopped where I did).

Sentientbydesign:

I won't be telling you what I have not done. And so, I expect others to be cautious when they do the same, becasue the results maybe different as no single G-35, other than those parked at the dealership, has the same setup.

The brakes of the 2007 G-35 Coupe are not as bad. Seems like they were slightly improved from previous models---I have a lot less brake dust from my factory pads, as I see on other models. I can't say it is the same with other models.

But you maybe right to the extent that arguing with me is like playing pink-ponk ball.

Anyway, I am just a fool at forty

Sentient:

I work very closely with my mechanic. According to him, and I have no reason to doubt him as he works on both 350Zs and G-35 Coupes, he seriously recommends using factory pads on factory rotors or OEM rotors.

However, if one chooses to use Hawk Pads or any other pad different from OEM, he advices that one gets the slotted rotors. When i get ready to buy the slotted rotors, then and only then, will I use the Hawk pads. Without a doubt, the Hawk pads, may have a better bite than the OEM pads. And this is especially so, as I look forward to buying a supercharger. That type of power requires something a little extreme. The factory pads from my driving experience may NOT be a very good idea with a Turbo or a Supercharger.

All I am saying here is that for my purposes, the OEM pads are just okay with OEM engines---they will only wear much faster if one drives the car hard---I wore out my first front brakes in 9 months. Why? When I go to my hidden track, I track the car only twice at the most (total of about 6 - 8 miles in all) on a single day, so that I can save on my tires ($200 a piece), which smell like heck ( I always drive with my wondows down) as the car is burning through the curves and twisties at those speeds. Just my 2 cents. This will be different for everyone depending on how they drive and their car's set up.

My opinion regarding the brakes comes from years of performance upgrades AND from my friend who sells performance parts at the local infiniti dealer.

He won't even put the OEM brakes on his mom's G sedan.

Jacko3 wrote:Minmey15:

I have said a ton of things on this forum that sounds crazy and somewhere somehow, turns out a whole load of other folks experience the same things. I am sorry, I am not one for group think. If all drivers drove the same, there will never be winners on the track. The techniques stated here are strictly for the parties who stated them and their preference. I am not a group think robot or machine. I insist on the techniques stated as it applies to the G-35 Coupe. Perhaps what you have said applies to other cars that are built differently. So, to each his own.

And by the way, think about your comments for a little while, why must driving a race car involve brake fade? I understand brake and tire locking, but not necessarily brake fad. Because many beleive in traditional methods of driving, they will never be free to try out something new on the G-35 coupe. Good drivers are willing to try something new.

Mr Hamilton and Mr Schumacher do not drive the same way, and yet they both have won pole positions on Formula 1. And, I have never give anyone the sense and impression that I am traditional in my thoughts and opinions, have I? To that end, once again, when one make these comments, think about Jacko--I don't fit in that box others might think, and never will. So, to each his own methods of driving.

And what has driving a V35 and V36 have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that driving V35 is less challenging than V36? What has one got to do with the other? Again, another traditional method of perceiving drivinig. I like you critique, and they do make me think atimes.

Modified by Jacko3 at 7:45 AM 4/30/2008

First of all, even F-1 drivers or WRC drivers could not drive fast without using brakes. And even they drive G35 coupes, they could not drive fast. They could drive faster than the speed you are driving in, but jut by using throttle to change directions, there is a limit. And you claim that your technique only applies to G35 coupe. This makes me laugh! I knew you say funny things, but you have been saying all kinds of weird stuff, and when people disagree with you, or try to teach you, then your reply is that we are talking about different cars? So basically, what you are saying is that you fully mastered driving G35 coupe? Please!!

Good drivers are willing to drive something new. I agree with you. Because if we follow the perfect line at the track, then we'd never pass the guy in front of us. And we all want to follow the perfect line. But you sound like you just don't want to learn how to use brakes, and just wanna stick with using throttle.

And when did I say

"driving a race car involve brake fade"

I never said that. I said if you drive fast enough in a heavy car like G35, you would encounter brake fade. Please read carefully. You seem to misunderstand alot.

I never compared V35 and V36. When I did I say that? You always say this is "G35 coupe" or whatever. So I just mentioned "Your V35" And I just happen to have V36, so many of my experience come from driving V36. But when did I say it is any less? I realized that they changed quite bit from V35 to V36, yet the difference is slight that it is drivers' race. I have enough experience to tell the difference between two cars. So why would I tell you that? And when did I say that? Pleast stop switchig the subject to dvert attentions. Most of us are adults here, and it does not work.

Minmey15:

You used the word "teach", and yet you claim most of us are adults. You don't teach adults. You try to reason with them. I don't beleive anyone here is an assigned teacher to anyone else here. If I need teaching, I know where to get it. Like I said before, to each his own.

If you love to drive with brakes at all times, be my guest. I don't, if I can avoid it. I would rather take advanatge of the vehicles momentum (mass X velocity) to maneuver the vehicle around curves than waste my time placing my trust on brakes. Again, to each his own. And yes, I have mastered the behavior of my car which happens to be a 2007 G-35 Coupe, and I love it. This helps me to know the limits of the car. I don't beleive Infiniti writes a manual on the limits and handling of the G-35 Coupe. We all have to find it out for ourselves, won't we?