Nissan's RWD V8 Altima!

[IanS]

We're both passionate guys with different viewpoints...we're not going to agree. But you've got to concede a few points:


Wait wait wait wait wait.

Which way do you want it? Make up your mind.

I want it the way the rest of the world has been doing it since the 60s. 4 cylinders, 16 valves, 2 cams, dual side draft carbs, and more Rev's then you can shake a stick at. Simple, yet elegant. I'd like to see you pull 120+ horsepower per liter reliably without boost out of an LS.

Have you ever SEEN an OHV V8? They're NOT BIG. That's a large part of their appeal.

Look.

They're not small either, yes there have been compact models made, but many production V8s are pointlessly large.

This is simply not true. LS3, LS7, LS9, LSA. JUST as versatile and balanced as any boosted four. 7krpm redlines, low-end torque, smooth idles, flat dyno graphs. They simply do EVERYTHING WELL. All of those have pushrods. All of them are excellent. Light and compact.

Some of us LIKE that sound. I personally can't fathom the appeal of the sound of most four-bangers. Taste varies.

Sorry no. They can be made to do most everything at least acceptably well. Out of the box, most of those are mediocre at best when it comes to power per liter, and efficiency. Not to mention none of them were built until the late 90s. For being GM's top dog engine, I am not impressed. I have driven quite a few vette's, F bodies, and a CTS-V. My opinion? Lackluster..... They call it a flagship, yet it has the interior out of a cavalier, and the drive train refinement of a pickup.

They're NOT disappearing from showrooms. There are more cars available with pushrod V8s today than the last 20 years before. All that DESPITE hippie legislation and MPG obsession.

I'd like to see those numbers. I don't buy it. The only manufacturers still selling pushrods are the big 3. Besides trucks, they are available in next to nothing save a few niche vehicles. Even Ford has, for the most part, done away with them, they are building a boosted 6 pickup, and I think every Mustang engine now comes DOHC. Chrysler has also been phasing out the archaic design, and under Fiat's leadership I would bet money that this trend will continue.

GM it seems is the only one desperately grasping at pushrods. Its not the first time they have utterly failed to realize what was plainly obvious to every other manufacturer. 4 valves per cylinder is more efficient then 2, its a fact. Better efficiency means more power. Why they cling to such ancient tech is beyond me.

[Looneybomber]

OMFG, listen to those straight-cut gears whine!

That was the first thing I noticed.

[MinisterofDOOM]

They're NOT disappearing from showrooms. There are more cars available with pushrod V8s today than the last 20 years before. All that DESPITE hippie legislation and MPG obsession.

I'd like to see those numbers. I don't buy it. The only manufacturers still selling pushrods are the big 3. Besides trucks, they are available in next to nothing save a few niche vehicles. Even Ford has, for the most part, done away with them, they are building a boosted 6 pickup, and I think every Mustang engine now comes DOHC. Chrysler has also been phasing out the archaic design, and under Fiat's leadership I would bet money that this trend will continue.

GM it seems is the only one desperately grasping at pushrods. Its not the first time they have utterly failed to realize what was plainly obvious to every other manufacturer. 4 valves per cylinder is more efficient then 2, its a fact. Better efficiency means more power. Why they cling to such ancient tech is beyond me.

Chrysler is not phasing out its pushrod V8 engines. Just the old sixes. Alongside their trucks and crossovers, Chrysler also sells the 300 and Challenger with pushrod eights. Ten years ago you couldn't get ANY Chrysler cars with eight cylinders...just trucks.

Meanwhile Chevy is selling the Camaro and the Caprice with V8s--though they did phase out the Impala's LS4 5.3 liter V8 (and both the 3.5 and 3.9 liter V6s) in favor of the LFX V6, which performs a lot like the LS4. And Chevrolet will be building a V8-ONLY sedan starting in 2014, which will be smallblock powered. So we've lost one V8 and gained three (the Camaro held steady, MIA years notwithstanding). Adds up to more pushrod V8-powered cars available today than in the last ~20 years. Even if you include the early-90s BOF Impala and the Crown Victoria, we've still gained V8s in the Chrysler 300 and Challenger. Still ahead. Ford hasn't used pushrods since the early 90s so they're not even a part of this. The last Mustang to use pushrods was the Fox body, which retired 19 years ago.

Lots of pushrod V8s to be found. Yes, the new crop of SUPERB high-tech V6s are replacing a lot of V8s, but Ford is responsible for a lot of that attrition and their V8s were DOHC anyway. The pushrod is holding strong in the market, and in its appeal. I won't deny that fours and sixes are getting better (Hyundai's turbo four makes more torque than my tiny V8 at 2000rpm!!!). But the V8 still has its appeal with people who aren't necessarily you.

[themadscientist]

I have my prejudices, and I am pretty set in my ways, but my prejudice pretty much comes down to a few things that are pretty easy to satisfy.

1. Does the thing abuse tires like a pimp that wants his money? If the mill demands my respect because it will put me into a guardrail the second I get cocky it has my attention.

2. Is it reliable doing it or is it a dyno queen? I have no use for showoff engines that need a dozen different parameters exactly right to deliver the goods and then need nap time, f*** that!

3. Is it as simple as it can be? Engines are becoming increasingly complex and I really don't like that, but if the results outweigh the extra PITA I'll go with it. Variable timing? Secondary butterfly manifolds? Meh. All that s*** for a flatter torque curve and a dozen ponies on the top? no thanks. It's wasted effort.

I can tolerate almost any mainstream engine that strikes a balance of the above. To a lesser extent, how's it sound? I don't normally have a radio in my cars. Years ago I pulled a blown CD deck out with the intention to put a new one back in and I just never did. I like the sound of a car. Don't get me wrong, if I had money I would rock a Fuga with all the creature comforts as a DD, but when i am ripping down the road I want to hear the machine. Case in point, the Altima video; I was most struck by the whine of the gear box. I love that s***!

Every engine has a character and most have something to love. Let's listen to a cacophony of dissimilar engines. they all sound unique, but they all sound cool and all would be welcome in my driveway.

First, the Chevrolet 454 big block. I am, at heart, a musclecar guy. I love a big loud NA motor doing everything itself. A throaty heavy breathing V8 touches me in my naughty places in a way a small displacement, pressurized high-revver just can't.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAvwzcBL ... re=related[/youtube]

Now, you like boost? So do I. Let's put a blower on that thing for s*** and giggles.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4difo4A ... sults_main[/youtube]

That's great, but it's not the only way to 1000hp. We can take one of them fancy dattsunn motors and put these new fangled turbo thingies on it. Enzymes and s*** start coagulating and form a mixture and s*** gets fun!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8kCsDDU ... re=related[/youtube]

Want to prove the replacement for displacement argument? Go even smaller on the ccs and up on the boost. SR? No, too big, go even smaller!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUA7Gl3BI78[/youtube]

Now, say you like that big rumble, but you are in Japan and you can't get a V8? Nissan had you covered back then. All motor, one cam and it thinks your mom's a trick!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A_1_tnUprE[/youtube]

Like NA, but like the sound smoother? Just add cylinders! No matter what you like, if you are me, you want to hear it. Strip all that sound deadening bull s*** out! Keep the Enzo, give me the F1.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkfvQvc9ipI[/youtube]

Hey, who says we have to have pistons? Wankel was a silly mofo, but his s*** works.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56HzivI9FhU[/youtube]

Enough with the hate. The s*** is weak.

[BusyBadger]

OMFG, listen to those straight-cut gears whine!

I'm sensing a theme here, I remember you saying the same thing when I posted the video of Hans-Joachim Stuck jamming his way through the dogbox of an M3 GTR on the Nordschleife.

[themadscientist]

For me, driving is like sex and the car is the chick. If you remember that opinion I have, you will be able to predict my opinion on any car.

My hate of the new GT-R becomes understandable. It's a $3000 an hour whore. It can do things I never thought of and almost no other woman can, but it needs me to do nothing, but lay there and will always say I was the best she ever had when I know it isn't true.

Cars like the AE86 and S13 are a college chicks on spring break. They are pretty simple and clumsy, but what they suffer in experience and technique they make up for in willing enthusiasm. "Slide my butt around that corner, ok, giggle giggle, poke my pedal again, that's fun!" They are fun, but they all run together in your memory and you didn't do anything more than any other dude she met on the beach.

Cars like the older GT-Rs, the Z, etc. are more like middle age ladies. They are smarter, know what they want and expect more from you. You make a wrong move and they will tell you "that's not it" when they spin out or hit the gravel and if you can't keep up they won't pretend they had an orgasm. Understandably, when you drive cars like that you are going to bring your A game. You don't want to be a punk. You are focused, you put your hips in it, you pull her hair a little, her tires moan and you know she's on the edge, you hold it there through the corner as best you can and when the road straightens out you hit it hard and drive for the finish line BANG!

Afterwards you sit on the side of the track with her idling, purring. Metal parts are making that tinkling noise of bliss as they cool off. You are dripping with sweat and all your senses are still amped up. You hear better, you see clearer, you smell the burnt rubber sex on her and you know she will remember you.

THAT, is driving.

s***, I feel sleepy now.

[float_6969]

I was gonna say I was ready for a cig and sleep after reading that.

[themadscientist]

Unfortunately, using that metaphor, I'd say most of the sex I've had was angry quickies in the Denny's bathroom.

[NolimitZ32]

TMS, you are a true poet haha.

[SanoSuKe]

Unfortunately, using that metaphor, I'd say most of the sex I've had was angry quickies in the Denny's bathroom.

lmfao!

[Q-ZILLA]

TMS... Sounds about right! LOL

[WDRacing]

GM it seems is the only one desperately grasping at pushrods. Its not the first time they have utterly failed to realize what was plainly obvious to every other manufacturer. 4 valves per cylinder is more efficient then 2, its a fact. Better efficiency means more power. Why they cling to such ancient tech is beyond me.

Um, perhaps you're not familiar with "if it's not broke don't fix it". Yes the 4v motors are more efficient, but you're making it sound like they are leaps and bounds better...that's just not correct dude. Yes they are more efficient, but the numbers don't come close to out weighing the cost to develop an entire new powerplant, especially when the LSx does exactly what it was designed to do, make gobs of power from throttle tip in through redline.

CAFE standards are a huge reason why manufacturers are going away from the V8, not because they aren't desired. Show me a car that has enough room under the hood for a LSx and I'll show you a car that would be funner to drive if it had one.

If you don't like an all aluminum V8 well...

[themadscientist]

L28 has just two valves per cylinder and it can still stand on the neck of many modern engines. If an engine breathes it makes power, period.

[WDRacing]

I agree 100%, I'm just a huge fan of a motor that creates 300 ft lbs of torque at throttle tip in. Peak horse power means absolutely nothing to me. Power under the curve is what a real motor is all about. Peaky motors are boring as hell to drive unless you're on the track. Something that sits you back in the seat when you press the go pedal is pure happiness imho. Efficiency be damned. Give me something that gets awful mileage and right now torque and color me happy.

[MinisterofDOOM]

More valves per cylinder does not necessarily mean a bigger total aperture. Two smaller valves or one bigger valve. The benefit really isn't valve count, it's combustion-chamber design. But, as Chrysler showed us in the '70s, you can still get a nice hemispherical combustion chamber even with two valves. Meanwhile Audi's oddball 5-valve design never caught on anywhere else.

And, anyway, pushrod doesn't REALLY have anything to do with valve count. There are 3-valve pushrod designs and 3-valve SOHC designs. Meanwhile the V16 posted earlier in this thread has four banks and four camshafts, but is still "DOHC" and makes use of a rocker arm setup to use one cam to actuate intake or exhaust valves for two sets of cylinder banks. You could do 4-valve pushrod engines easily. Just no need to. Two-valve smallblocks breathe just fine, be it through a blower or otherwise.

Part of the reason variable timing (the real strength of DOHC as you can vary intake and exhaust timing separately) is used so commonly on smaller engines is as compensation for their lack of dynamic range, as it were. V8s do not have that natural weakness, so the absence of DOHC isn't as much of an issue unless you start getting picky about finely balancing fuel economy with power output. And even there, it's the displacement that's the main hurdle for efficiency, not the packaging.

[themadscientist]

2TG, J-spec-hemi!

[LEMHEAD16]

Been a while since I posted here, but had to chime in because of personal experience.

Everyday I have the choice to drive a brand new tuned hyundai 2.0T or a 17 year old DOHC Q45.

Most days I pick the V8, the overall drive ability of the low end torque makes for a very enjoyable driving experience. No waiting on boost to come in, just grab and go. The next daily driver I buy will NOT be a turbo four, small engine + boost has it's place, especially with coming CAFE standards, but I'll take a V8 any day over one.

[WDRacing]

Welcome back dude!