Nissan Calls out Top Gear

[PoorManQ45]

It's called a hybrid. I hear Toyota will sell one soon.

Hybrids are retarded.

VW TDI gets better mileage.

[themadscientist]

I agree. They capture the worst of both vehicles. A gutless gas engine with a short range capacity electric system. Either get the gas engine running as efficient and clean as possible or push the envelope on electric range and charge speed.

[Jesda]

GE locomotives FTW

[elwesso]

Top gear clearly demonstrated than an M3 gets "better gas mileage" than a prius.. I would find it rather boring to have Clarkson driving a Leaf around seeing how many miles he could get out of it. His sole mission in life is to see how few miles he can make a car last (if not the whole car, at least the tires)..

Honestly if I bought car that was advertised for 80 miles and I got 50 miles out of it, I would be very upset.. If its advertised for 80 miles (which is my daily commute), and wouldn't get me home I'd be going to the dealer or installing a hitch to pull one of those commercial generators..

I agree with Jesda though, I don't think the point was that "nissan sucks", its that if you have an electric car, you have to understand if you run out of juice, you're up sh1t creek without a paddle..

I bet all the tree-huggers will reconsider their decisions when their leaf's are getting towed by an old tow truck spewing out black smoke.. LOL!

[sbird1]

New Wave Disc Generator + Leaf = Amazingly cheap transportation.

[Red coupe]

TMS said it all.

Naw, I am gonna say that Jesda hit it.

Some of you have missed the point of the segment. How it was produced or what was implied is entirely irrelevant to the main idea.


If you run out of juice in the Leaf, the infrastructure is NOT there to support you. No matter where you run out, you'll have to wait at least half an hour (if you magically come across a 480v charging station) before you can continue. In a typical environment, expect to wait 7-20 hours depending on voltage.

It doesn't matter if Top Gear ran out after a full charge or after a 40% charge. The point is, they wanted to demonstrate what would happen if you traveled a distance in an electric and needed to refuel somewhere away from home.



If I wanted to demonstrate to you that coffee is hot, it doesn't matter if I heated it up on a fire, in a microwave, or on an electric range. The resulting temperature is the same! Its going to be hot!

The difference seems to be that the guys upset at this see it as a slam on the cars range, when the point was "WHEN YOU DO RUN OUT..." (which was simulated because no one wants to watch real time while Jermy drives through town all day).

It's called a hybrid. I hear Toyota will sell one soon.

Hybrids are retarded.

VW TDI gets better mileage.

Ehhh, its not entirely dumb... but most of them don't work well enough to be worth not just using a diesel.

The only one I think that really is getting close to being worthwhile and practical is the volt. I think the idea of having your electric range, and back up gas range extender to help out in a pinch or on the occasional long trip is very smart.

We have seen at least for now that typical hybrid systems don't really out perform economical diesel setups, and electric only vehicles take too much time to take another charge... But with those two ideas together cars can be made with acceptable around town, day to day mileage and performance that still have the range when needed at a cost per mile that is better then typical gas engines.
Manufacturers seem to be focused on what the technology should be, and trying to force it today rather then using what we can make work now... I hope more cars with similar/better systems then the volt come out...

[PoorManQ45]

These electric cars remind me of my little Ninja 250.

It's great for short around town trips. Not such a good idea for longer commutes.

[elwesso]

The true answer to this is Mr. Fusion

[IBCoupe]

Hybrids are retarded.

VW TDI gets better mileage.

From a consumer perspective, you're probably right. However, absent any consumer demand for hybrids (even government-induced demand), we won't have decent electric cars. There just won't be an incentive to go through all the effort of improving the technology because the reward is going to be too far out.

[szh]

Honestly if I bought car that was advertised for 80 miles and I got 50 miles out of it, I would be very upset..

Well, yes. But if you start out with a half-charge, then expect it go 80 miles, it would be kinda silly, no?

Sorta like starting out with a half tank of gas and expecting it to go the same 350 miles that a full tank does, running out of gas at 200 miles would not be the manufacturers fault.

Z

[Bubba1]

I think if this was a Mitsubishi electric car instead of a Nissan Leaf there would be less outrage. In real life, unless you have pre-arranged points to recharge at each stop, you're beginning every intermediate step in a Leaf with less than full charge. so if youre a lead footed driver or if you demand creature comforts like a/c, as Clarkson freely admits being, the range is going to obviously be far less than Nissan advertised. Now, factor in few current public recharging options in London which Clarkson also noted, and the odds of getting stuck in London in a dead Leaf will increase unless you carefully watch your powerlife and driving habits. Finally, toss in Clarkson's snarky unfiltered humor, which most of us enjoy, (except for some when he trashes Nissan) and this show is no different than any other Top Gear UK show.

As info, Clarkson did not like the 350Z either. I own one. Ask me if I care what Clarkson thinks.

[szh]

the odds of getting stuck in London in a dead Leaf will increase unless you carefully watch your powerlife and driving habits.

Very true! But the behavior can change easily enough.

My boss has a Tesla - and he suffered from what he called hyper "mileage anxiety" for a long while. He was always concerned about whether he would make it to wherever he was going!

Then, he realized that it was not that big a deal and it became a non-issue. His daily driving patterns had not changed from when he drove a gasoline car more often. As long as he plugs in the Tesla when he gets home at night, he will have enough juice to get anywhere that he is likely to. And, if he doesn't plug in (rare now), he simply drives his other car.

Most days, it is just a daily commute and he can easily do two days of commuting on a single charge - even if the traffic is heavy. if he drives on a longer trip (like to Napa), then he sometimes takes another car instead of the Tesla, particularly if he is expecting to drive around there a lot. And, he would not consider driving the car to Los Angeles now - it will not make it there and back on one charge, so what is the point of attempting it today?

BTW, it appears the the Tesla community is building up a owner-based support system - the owners are banding together and telling other Tesla owners where they live, and friendly "drop-ins" to charge (no cost!) are becoming more common. My boss thinks that he could drive to LA soon enough in the future because of that (not likely per se due to the car's size, but ... ), because he can drop by some other owner's house down there to re-charge for the trip back. All this is, of course, at no cost - sort of a general agreement to help each other out. Cool!

Z

[Bubba1]

the odds of getting stuck in London in a dead Leaf will increase unless you carefully watch your powerlife and driving habits.

Very true! But the behavior can change easily enough.

My boss has a Tesla - and he suffered from what he called hyper "mileage anxiety" for a long while. He was always concerned about whether he would make it to wherever he was going!

Then, he realized that it was not that big a deal and it became a non-issue. His daily driving patterns had not changed from when he drove a gasoline car more often. As long as he plugs in the Tesla when he gets home at night, he will have enough juice to get anywhere that he is likely to. And, if he doesn't plug in (rare now), he simply drives his other car.

Most days, it is just a daily commute and he can easily do two days of commuting on a single charge - even if the traffic is heavy. if he drives on a longer trip (like to Napa), then he sometimes takes another car instead of the Tesla, particularly if he is expecting to drive around there a lot. And, he would not consider driving the car to Los Angeles now - it will not make it there and back on one charge, so what is the point of attempting it today?

BTW, it appears the the Tesla community is building up a owner-based support system - the owners are banding together and telling other Tesla owners where they live, and friendly "drop-ins" to charge (no cost!) are becoming more common. My boss thinks that he could drive to LA soon enough in the future because of that (not likely per se due to the car's size, but ... ), because he can drop by some other owner's house down there to re-charge for the trip back. All this is, of course, at no cost - sort of a general agreement to help each other out. Cool!

Z

The comraderie angle is very interesting, but not overly surprising when you consider the Tesla's steep price tag. It's a very small, exclusive and affluent group of owners, who own backup cars, and presumably live near enough to each other to do it. I could see something like that happening someday with the Leaf perhaps on NICO, but only if Nissan sells a ton of Leaves, which I'm not confident they'll do.

But back to my 1st point. Last year, Top Gear tested a Tesla and Clarkson ripped it too, gloating about multiple breakdowns/running out of power at their track. Certainly possible they started without a full charge in that case too, but my issue is why was there no outrage at NICO over THAT story, yet plenty of outrage about the Leaf?

[downedzephyr]

Tesla actually filed a lawsuit against Top Gear for the very same issue.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20048815-48.html

[Bubba1]

Tesla actually filed a lawsuit against Top Gear for the very same issue.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20048815-48.html

That's funny. I didn;t know that. But it's very easy to file a lawsuit like that, but whether Tesla can win is another story.
Unless Tesla can prove the brake fuse failing or it's overheating during testing did not happen, or were maliciously rigged to fail, Tesla is going to lose, and suffer the same fate as the Morris Marina owners club faced after making a big stink about Top Gears setting one on fire after trashing it. Tesla will look foolish.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-shNHaJigM[/youtube]

[IBCoupe]

I don't know, Bubsters. From the link:

Using the cars' own data, Tesla says it can prove the battery levels never got below 20-percent charge while being used by "Top Gear."

Sounds kinda sleazy of Top Gear to me.

[Bubba1]

I don't know, Bubsters. From the link:

Using the cars' own data, Tesla says it can prove the battery levels never got below 20-percent charge while being used by "Top Gear."

Sounds kinda sleazy of Top Gear to me.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Right now we're getting uncontested allegations from both sides. Hard to take either side too seriously unless it goes to court, as there's clearly more detail we're not getting here. Personally I think Tesla has more to lose than gain by taking on a comedy show.

[IBCoupe]

Personally I think Tesla has more to lose than gain by taking on a comedy show.

First, they're probably aiming for the BBC, not Top Gear itself. Second, a lie is a lie, especially when espoused by an authority figure (which, when it comes to cars, Top Gear is). Third, libel and slander laws in England are extremely plaintiff-friendly.

[Bubba1]

First, they're probably aiming for the BBC, not Top Gear itself. Second, a lie is a lie, especially when espoused by an authority figure (which, when it comes to cars, Top Gear is). Third, libel and slander laws in England are extremely plaintiff-friendly.

1. Agree. But there's a bigger picture. Win or lose, the court of public opinion would likely condemn Tesla if, as a result, Top Gear got watered down or worse yet, cancelled. Tesla will acquire a negative humorless thin skinned whiny reputation, which is not something an aspiring car company necessarily would want if they want people to support and buy their cars. In other words, if they're going to go that extreme to be technically correct fighting a silly comedy show, that gives the impression to many that they might fight just as hard with buyers that experience warranty problems with their cars. If I were in the market for a $100K+ sports car, I'd be wary of dealing with a company determined to be technically right at all costs. I'd likely skip that company and buy an R8.

2. Yes, a lie is a lie, except when it isn't. As I noted earlier, we really don't have all the facts. Both cars that Tesla supplied had problems during Top Gear's track tests. The overheating likely resulted in the car going into limp mode. May be irrelevant that the power level in the overheated car did not drop below 20%. The car still stopped functioning normally. the brake fuse failure was not disputed.

3. Agree here too. But without all the facts we won't know if/how they apply.

My guess is the case wont make it to court, but it would be fun to watch if it did...

[Jesda]

1. Sue the BBC and win.
2. THE LEAF STILL LACKS INFRASTRUCTURE.

Who the f*** cares about the legal issue? The real-world problem they demonstrated doesn't change!

I snickered a bit when I saw a Tesla on the side of the highway just north of Palo Alto. Z, I hope that wasn't your brother.

Very true! But the behavior can change easily enough.

Which sucks the freedom and joy out of motoring.

[szh]

I snickered a bit when I saw a Tesla on the side of the highway just north of Palo Alto. Z, I hope that wasn't your brother.

Not that I know of. BTW, my boss, not my brother.

And, of course, cars do break down for any number of reasons. Could have been charge, could have been something else.

Very true! But the behavior can change easily enough.

Which sucks the freedom and joy out of motoring.

Ummm? I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at. My boss no longer worries about how many miles he has left, although he did in the beginning. Now, he just drives wherever he wants to in the Bay Area and only charges up every other day or so ... on rarer longer trips, he takes his other car. He is getting an estimated over 200 miles on every charge by the way - much better than the Top Gear "number".

In terms of "motoring" capabilities, the car is simply amazing. Zero to sixty in under 4 seconds, damn good handling (like a Lotus) and looks quite nice (like a Lotus! ) too.

I'd be totally happy with one - although I cannot afford it. Maybe the S model when it comes out next year, though!

Z

[szh]

2. THE LEAF STILL LACKS INFRASTRUCTURE.

Assuming you mean charging stations ...

Yes, but this is changing rapidly already. Check out companies like eCotality and Coulomb Technologies - soon, there will be charging stations sufficiently available to make it a non-issue.

Z

[downedzephyr]

what color was the tesla? i know 2 people in that area that own tesla's, one is bright green and the other is red.

[Jesda]

2. THE LEAF STILL LACKS INFRASTRUCTURE.

Assuming you mean charging stations ...

Yes, but this is changing rapidly already. Check out companies like eCotality and Coulomb Technologies - soon, there will be charging stations sufficiently available to make it a non-issue.

Z

Yes, but soon is not now. The Leaf is for sale now.

Perhaps by the Leaf's second or third generation, a realistically adequate support network will exist.

[Jesda]

what color was the tesla? i know 2 people in that area that own tesla's, one is bright green and the other is red.

I want to say it was silver.

Every time I go to California (twice since 2006) its cloudy and rainy, which makes everything look gray. It was a lighter color but it wasn't white.

[Jesda]

Ummm? I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at. My boss no longer worries about how many miles he has left

Because he trained himself to adapt to the car's lacking ability. He is a servant to the car's inadequate engineering. That may not be Nissan's fault due to the limits of today's technology, but it IS a real limitation that removes freedom, and therefore joy, from motoring.





There's a lot of crappy things in life we adjust and adapt to, but we shouldn't do it if we don't have to.

Typically, scarcity is the reason why we settle. We have limited time, energy, talent, and money to do what we want, so we accept less in most aspects of life to gain more in others. With the Leaf, owners are paying more (versus, say, a value package Accord) to acquire a serious limitation, simply for the novelty of electric driving.

In economic terms, that's flat-out dumb. The Leaf is a gadget, a novelty, and a science experiment -- not a wise or practical consumer good. That's in part what Top Gear was trying to demonstrate. And yes, the Leaf doesn't need oil changes or gasoline, but a typical late-model or brand new Honda Accord hardly needs anything beyond oil, brake pads, tires, and fuel to see 80k of reliable service.

The Tesla Roadster at least has its merits, strong ones -- as a gadget, a novelty, and a science experiment it excels and even offers aesthetic pleasure. Its a luxury good, not an everyday durable consumer good, so its impracticalities are forgiven by its respectably sharp handling, keen styling, and brand cachet.


The Leaf is the car of tomorrow that's available today. The problem is, its like having an iPad in 1960. Without the infrastructure to support it, its completely useless.

[IBCoupe]

Jesda, I think you're focusing on the point of the piece too much, and too little on the factual claims that are called into question here.

1. Did it actually run out of power?
2. Did it actually do so after X miles?

Nissan's target demographic is probably far more concerned with those two facts than they are with "whatever happens when your car dies." The only infrastructure Nissan's target customer plans to use is his or her garage. Then, what we're talking about is whether the car goes far enough for planned use.

If they said the car died within 20 miles of use, then anybody who planned to use the car more than, say, eight miles to and from work should really rethink their purchase of the car. It ran fifty miles? Eh, if you live within 20 miles of work, it might work well for you. That's probably a good portion of Americans. If the car actually gets up to the 100 miles, then Nissan's golden. Tesla, too.

Yes, there's no infrastructure, but to the target customer, there doesn't need to be, and if Top Gear is intentionally and knowingly making misleading claims about the car's range, then they've gone from making value judgments ("The build quality looks like the car was built by a drug-addled, retarded Thai chimp") to actual objective claim ("The car died after 50 miles.")

[Jesda]

Jesda, I think you're focusing on the point of the piece too much, and too little on the factual claims that are called into question here.

Run after an ambulance if you're hard-up for a case. I want to talk about the Leaf.

[IBCoupe]

Jesda, I think you're focusing on the point of the piece too much, and too little on the factual claims that are called into question here.

Run after an ambulance if you're hard-up for a case. I want to talk about the Leaf.

Okay. So then maybe you could respond to what I wrote?

Yes, Top Gear has a point when they say, "There's no infrastructure." No, Top Gear's lie about the vehicle's range is not redeemed by the fact that they have a point about infrastructure. They still lied and and that lie still cost an automaker money.

[Jesda]

Yes, Top Gear has a point when they say, "There's no infrastructure." No, Top Gear's lie about the vehicle's range is not redeemed by the fact that they have a point about infrastructure. They still lied and and that lie still cost an automaker money.

The Leaf is a passenger car in a practical package that's inherently impractical to use. That's the far-reaching, far more important, far more relevant issue here. The rest is lolyers being lolyers, scraping crumbs off the floor looking for a smoking gun.


Outside of a possible legal battle between Nissan and the BBC, who the hell cares? Get your nose off the pavement and look at the bigger picture.