New LS 460

[DrewQ45]

I never liked a car that was a copy of another. It shows a lack of talent when Toyota copies the basic shape from a BMW.

The last LS was a copy of a Benz S-class. The new one is styled after the 7 series.

Here's the new LS and the BMW 7 series:

It's not only Toyota... Infiniti and others do it too.

Taken from Wikipedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti

"By the early 2000s, Infiniti was facing extinction. Its own impending doom being perhaps the best motivator, the company rededicated itself to developing a dynamic and powerful line-up of sporty luxury cars. Car and Driver reported that Infiniti executives invited members of the motoring press to a meeting where they "swore never again to take their eyes off BMW."

[hannibal]

They stole heavily from the 7 series on this one, but did it even better.

I think this car is great. But it better be. It now costs 2.5 times what the first LS400 did in 1989.

[KU4FIZE]

the new LS is the BOMB. I read the article too in the LA Times. I dnt know why the guys that wrote the article didnt like it

[Falkdesigns]

The new LS looks a million times better than the 7 series IMO. I kinda liked the current 7 series when it came out, but I don't look twice any more, it's boring and ugly. This new LS is like a sleek Shinkansen (bullet train), long and low, wide and smooth, I love it. Love the outside, but the whole point of a huge, long wheelbase car like this is the INSIDE. And a luxury car like that w/o wood and lots of it, boooring.

[BlueC]

I never liked a car that was a copy of another. It shows a lack of talent when Toyota copies the basic shape from a BMW.

The last LS was a copy of a Benz S-class. The new one is styled after the 7 series.

So you pretty much only like a couple cars on the road today huh....

Face it, it's hard to design a car in the same class to look completly different from its competitors. It's just part of the new style. It's also part of business (which you really are not seeing the clear picture), if you have a completly different product, it'll only result in grabbing a completly different market of people. A lot of cars look like their competitors designs, its just how the business is. The LS just so happened to be designed similar to the 7 series, does that make Lexus bad? Nope. They have a long history of being original with designs, unfortunatly it tends to hurt sales a bit, Infiniti/Nissan had that dilemma years back.

And a lack of talent does not necessarily all come from design, i'd say BMW and Mercedes have a much larger lack of talent to be able to incorporate all different kinds of electronics that don't work half the time.

[Falkdesigns]

Good points. Add to that the fact that all automotive designers graduate from about the same 5 schools across the globe. In the US, there are two, and 60% off all US based auto designers graduate from Art Center in Pasadena, CA. That means they all took the same classes, got taught from the same teachers and then went to work for people that went through the same programs. It's kinda amazing that there's any difference in cars at all. That new LS is about as nice a long wheelbase luxury car I've ever seen.

[sijoko]

Face it, it's hard to design a car in the same class to look completly different from its competitors................ The LS just so happened to be designed similar to the 7 series, does that make Lexus bad?

Yes, I understand that there is only so much you can do with a four door luxury sedan, but is it necessary to copy the exact profile of a competitor.

Toyota is one of the biggest auto companies in the world. They have vast amounts of resources at their disposal. Is it too hard for them to come up with a nice, but unique design for their flagship?

Look at the Benz CLS sedan. It has a very unique shape. Every time I see one, I think to myself, "Man that car was designed with passion." Of course, I probably would never own one because of all the problems that are inherent in Mercedes-Benz vehicles. But I do give credit for the shape of the car.

Now about the shape of the LS 460. It looks a lot like the BMW 7 series, which I never liked because of its Bangle Butt. It is not a smooth car to look at.

On the other hand, the new LS is a nicer design than the 7. However, you cannot ignore the blatant similarities in profile. The wheelbase, hood line, roof profile, trunk profile, even the location of the little "Shark Fin" antenna are almost identical. It seems that Toyota made a better 7 series and for that we should praise them?

[Jesda]

So you pretty much only like a couple cars on the road today huh....

Face it, it's hard to design a car in the same class to look completly different from its competitors. It's just part of the new style. It's also part of business (which you really are not seeing the clear picture), if you have a completly different product, it'll only result in grabbing a completly different market of people. A lot of cars look like their competitors designs, its just how the business is. The LS just so happened to be designed similar to the 7 series, does that make Lexus bad? Nope. They have a long history of being original with designs, unfortunatly it tends to hurt sales a bit, Infiniti/Nissan had that dilemma years back.

To all of the above: No.



There's no excuse for derivative design.

Design has mostly been a weak point for Lexus. It doesnt matter though, because Lexus's job is to replace Buick's former role as the purveyor of unexciting but very nice, well-appointed, and well-built luxury cars. "Very nice" is very nice indeed, for nice people. Unfortunately, those people are latte-sipping douchebags with as much soul as a light switch. They can do what they want, but I can't be compelled to give a damn about them.

The new LS is absolutely not a bad car. Its technologically remarkable and I'd be VERY happy to take one for a ride. But is it special? No, not really. A car, like Kevin Falk said so well in a previous thread, is art. Human imagination should be involved in the process. When that imagination results in something aesthetically pleasurable, it evokes positive thoughts and emotions.

You know that feeling of excitement you get when a Ferrari goes by? I'd guess that a lot of it has to do with the fact that they dont look like Camrys.

[BlueC]

To all of the above: No.



There's no excuse for derivative design.

Design has mostly been a weak point for Lexus. It doesnt matter though, because Lexus's job is to replace Buick's former role as the purveyor of unexciting but very nice, well-appointed, and well-built luxury cars. "Very nice" is very nice indeed, for nice people. Unfortunately, those people are latte-sipping douchebags with as much soul as a light switch. They can do what they want, but I can't be compelled to give a damn about them.

The new LS is absolutely not a bad car. Its technologically remarkable and I'd be VERY happy to take one for a ride. But is it special? No, not really. A car, like Kevin Falk said so well in a previous thread, is art. Human imagination should be involved in the process. When that imagination results in something aesthetically pleasurable, it evokes positive thoughts and emotions.

You know that feeling of excitement you get when a Ferrari goes by? I'd guess that a lot of it has to do with the fact that they dont look like Camrys.

I understand your point of view, but at the same time I disagree. Not every Lexus is boring. Every auto manufacturer makes boring cars.

Have you ever driven a '98-01 SC400 or 98+ GS400? Those are in no way boring cars. The SC series alone was a very well designed car, not to mention bullet proof. If it wasn;t for their strong resale value and nearly hard to find altogether, I would have chosen a 99-01 SC over any Infiniti, Nissan, etc. Sure the ES300 might be a boring car, but thats not all what Lexus has produced. The V8 in the 98+ SC300 produced 300hp. A small 4L V8, smaller than the 4.1L currently in my Y33. It was also paired with a 5 speed automatic transmission. Those cars will put any Q45 to shame, sad to say, but very true. They are not light either, just like the Q45 they were built heavy, but atleast Lexus made up for it. Same goes with the GS400, heavy sedan, but Lexus beefed up the engine to make up for the excess weight, plus put it in a decent transmission.

Lexus might seem "boring" to some, but it sure as hell beats out any other auto maker in build quality. And again, don't bring the Camry into this discussion, that is a Toyota (Yes I know all the same) and its a completly different class of car, it was purly meant for hauling around families.

So what if Lexus didn't get extremely creative with the design of the LS, doesn't make all of their cars like that.

"Unfortunately, those people are latte-sipping douchebags with as much soul as a light switch. They can do what they want, but I can't be compelled to give a damn about them."

I've met more people like that who drive BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis, MUCH more often than ones that drive a Lexus. Infiniti will turn that way too, deal with it.

[Skibane]

[Jesda]

Lexus might seem "boring" to some, but it sure as hell beats out any other auto maker in build quality. And again, don't bring the Camry into this discussion, that is a Toyota (Yes I know all the same) and its a completly different class of car, it was purly meant for hauling around families.

So what if Lexus didn't get extremely creative with the design of the LS, doesn't make all of their cars like that.

What we're discussing is the LS and its lack of creativity and originality.

I'm well aware of the GS and its Italian roots, as well as the sporty former SC. Both are cars that I'd be -very- happy to have. Unfortunately, the new IS looks like a bar of soap and is far too disconnected from the road. The SC has become a suburban rolling bathtub that doesn't stand up to Cadillac, BMW, and MB.

All of Lexus's best designs are in its past, with the exception of today's GS.

Quality matters less than it used to. All the automakers, even the Koreans, have caught up enough to the Japanese that we can look more at design and feel. We aren't in the 80s anymore, where people in Hyundai Ponys and Ford Escorts are routinely left stranded on the road.

Design does NOT have to come at the expense of quality, with Infiniti and Cadillac as prime examples. In this modern age, you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Romeo5k]

is that a toyota and a lexus that look amost the same?

[BlueC]

What we're discussing is the LS and its lack of creativity and originality.

I'm well aware of the GS and its Italian roots, as well as the sporty former SC. Both are cars that I'd be -very- happy to have. Unfortunately, the new IS looks like a bar of soap and is far too disconnected from the road. The SC has become a suburban rolling bathtub that doesn't stand up to Cadillac, BMW, and MB.

All of Lexus's best designs are in its past, with the exception of today's GS.

Quality matters less than it used to. All the automakers, even the Koreans, have caught up enough to the Japanese that we can look more at design and feel. We aren't in the 80s anymore, where people in Hyundai Ponys and Ford Escorts are routinely left stranded on the road.

Design does NOT have to come at the expense of quality, with Infiniti and Cadillac as prime examples. In this modern age, you can have your cake and eat it too.

Ok, I agree with that. I do recognize that Lexus had had less excitement in their newer cars. The new SC is pretty much a disgrace towards the previous generation.

[pito11213]

I am happy to be able to provide my input on this. I owned a 90 Q45 then a 92 acura legend LS coupe and now I have the pleasure to own a 92 Lexus LS 400. The Lex is a different world than the previous cars listed. Way more luxury feel and way more comfort. No engine sound. You do not feel the shifts from the buttery transmission no matter what speed. Nice growl when you get into it but still more refined than the Q. Quality built is an excellent term. Besides the little quirks such as the needles sticking the car is in wonderful shape after 14 years. No rattles or squeaks. Outside noise is canceled. Nice pioneer stock system including a sub. Suspension feels wonderful absorbing bumps and potholes of the like.

I must that the new lex is out of my range but for what you get it is a good price. If you have to use similar lines from a car why not a hot body. The new M45 and G35 which look similar to a max are in the same category. Look at the hyundai sonata which is similar to the accord. Lexus is alright with me.

[Jesda]

I thought the stock Lexus system back then was Nakamichi?

[Q45tech]

Lexus always played the BMW/MB tricks to keep base price low.............lots of mandatory options..........sunroof, audio.

After seeing hundreds of every model, to me just like Infiniti the best years were in the mid 90's other than the expert handbuilt 1990 if you could stand it.

OBD2 while easier to diagnose caused a serious rise in complexity and many many many more sensors to fail.

The nice thing about the 90K LS460 is 6 years from now you can buy one for <$25k [in inflated dollars].

[maxnix]

Lexus might seem "boring" to some, but it sure as hell beats out any other auto maker in build quality.

Not in 1995, according to JD Powers. The G50 was regarded as the best built car long term.

Know your history.

The new LS has one incredibly bad ergonomic feature -- the navigation screen is below the vents. Infiniti has done this so much better since the F50 came out.

[BlueC]

Not in 1995, according to JD Powers. The G50 was regarded as the best built car long term.

Know your history.

Know 'Your' history....

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars...+Cars

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/0...ility/

[Jesda]

July 1992 - J.D. Power and Associates announces that Infiniti wins first place in 'Initial Quality Study.'

November 1993 - Infiniti is named 'Best Overall Carline' by J.D. Power and Associates Sales Satisfaction Index (SSI).

May 1995 - J.D. Power and Associates announces that Infiniti ranked 'Best Overall Carline in Initial Quality' and J30 ranked 'Best Model in the $29,000 and over price class in Initial Quality.

July 1996 - J.D. Power and Associates announces that Infiniti is #1 in 'Customer Satisfaction Index.'

In my opinion, the most important award is the one below, which takes into account not only quality, but also design, performance, and feel:^^An honor shared with the Acura NSX, Ferrari 348, BMW M5, Chevy Corvette ZR-1, Mazda Miata, Mercedes-Benz 300E, Mercedes-Benz 500SL, Nissan 300ZX Turbo, Porsche 911 Carrera 4, and Nissan 300ZX.

[BlueC]

Calendar Year 1997 Top Ten All-Stars (5th consecutive year)-SC 300 1997, Automobile Magazine

Calendar Year 1996 Best Premium Luxury Car in Initial Quality (IQS)-SC400/300 1996, J.D. Power and Associates Top Ten All-Stars-SC 300 1996, Automobile Magazine

Calendar Year 1995 Top Ten All-Stars-SC 300 1995, Automobile Magazine

Calendar Year 1994 Among the Top Ten in Initial Quality (IQS)-SC 400/300 1994, J.D. Power and Associates One of 10Best Cars-SC 300 1994, Car and Driver Top Ten All-Stars-SC 300 1994, Automobile Magazine

Calendar Year 1993 Among the Top Ten in Initial Quality (IQS)-SC 400/300 1993, J.D. Power and Associates One of 10Best Cars-SC 300 1993, Car and Driver Top Ten All-Stars-SC 300 1993, Automobile Magazine Winner of the Luxury Coupe Comparison Test-SC 400 1993, Car and Driver

Calendar Year 1992 Coupe Comparison Test (Tie for First Place)-SC 300 1992, Road and Track Car of the Year-SC 400 1992, Playboy Import Car of the Year-SC 400 1992, Motor Trend Top Ten Import for Personal Luxury Cars-SC 400 1992, Motor Trend Among the Top Ten in Initial Quality (IQS)-SC 400 1992, J.D. Power and Associates One of 10Best Cars-SC 400 1992, Car and Driver Top Ten All-Stars-SC 400 1992, Automobile Magazine Best Cars in the $35,000 - $40,000 Range (Tie)-SC 400 1992, AAA

Calendar Year 1991 Auto Exotica Highest Ranking Car for Sports Coupes-SC 400 1991, Motor Trend Top Ten Import for Personal Luxury Cars-SC 400 1991, Motor Trend

[Jesda]

I dont get it. Why are we talking about the SC?

I might as well bring up Volvos.

[BlueC]

We're comparing Lexus to Infinit here. Someone stated the 95' Q45 was the most reliable car of its time, so I had to show a comparison. Infiniti is great, but not the best around, thats all.

[Jesda]

Oh, I gotcha.

[sijoko]

I don't think that anyone here would argue that the first gen. Lexus SC is not a great car. It still looks very nice.

But my bone is with Toyota/Lexus copying another car maker (BMW) when they designed the new LS. Is it so hard to make your flagship look unique? Are they afraid to take risks in design? Is that why they bite off BMW with the IS and the new LS?

[maxnix]

But my bone is with Toyota/Lexus copying another car maker (BMW) when they designed the new LS.

And using belts instead of chains for me. Dos the new engine continue this? I think the 3.5L went to chain drive, finally. In any case, if they put this engine and transmission in a GS, it's bye bye to the M45 when it comes to performance. New 2007 IS let you switch off the electronic Nanny, but I don't know if it is all the way.

Now that almost everyone knows that in some years Infiniti has topped owners satisfaction surveys, isn't the topic of the thread the new LS460?

Noticed some of the reviewers said it was a little tight in the back seat in standard wheelbase. Personally, while the tete de cuvée of the foreign car manufacturers are loaded with remarkable gee gaws (self parking!), I think they are aimed at those who don't or can't enjoy driving. The new LS is a perfect example. My interest always lies at least one lline down, the E series, the Fünfer, the M45, the IS,.....

I bet the Q's replacement will unfortunately follow the others into this useless over ornamentation and no longer be a driver's car.

[Jesda]

Another question is how you define "best".

You could go by long term dependability (2006 survey covers 2003 cars):1. Lexus (Toyota), Score: 1362. Mercury (Ford), Score: 1513. Buick (GM), Score: 1534. Cadillac (GM), Score: 1635. Toyota, Score: 1796. Acura (Honda), Score: 1847. Honda, Score: 1948. Jaguar (Ford), Score: 2109. BMW, Score: 21210. Infiniti (Nissan), Score: 21511. Lincoln (Ford), Score: 22012. Ford, Score: 22413. Oldsmobile (GM), Score: 224

Would you really say a Mercury is -better- than an Acura or Infiniti? Reliability is a product of consistency and manufacturing quality, but it tells nothing about how desirable, enjoyable, or likeable a car is.

Would you really choose a Lacrosse, Camry, or Grand Marquis over an M45? In this modern age, anyone can make a reliable car, even tired old Detroit. The magic is in the drive.

[BlueC]

I'd take a GS430 over an M45. But I see your point. It does become less enjoyable with unreliable cars, simply because you never get a chance to drive it w/o having problems.

[Jesda]

I'd probably take an STS over a GS or M, since you can get AWD with a V8. Its a damn shame Audi quality is still in the toilet. For the last decade they've made the most beautiful sedans in the world.

[Skibane]

Personally, while the tete de cuvée of the foreign car manufacturers are loaded with remarkable gee gaws (self parking!), I think they are aimed at those who don't or can't enjoy driving.

Considering that they put the recliners and fridge in the BACK seat, that's probably a safe assumption!

This strikes me as a bargain-basement Maybach/Rolls wannabe. If you can afford a chaffeur, you can probably afford a genuine Maybach or Rolls - so why would you want this "cheapie" instead? What is the target market for this vehicle (aside from people with more money than sense)?