New head design

[480sx]

Im sure we can get one custom made for the ka24de .

Check this thing out though, super cool stuff.

This is the animation showing how it works..

http://www.coatesengine.com/rotary_motor.html

Heres the 'finished' product.

http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv.html

This is their promo vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsRa4eT7co

[Crazyirish]

Read an article on there stuff in a mustang mag several years ago. Cool stuff, definitely some outside of the box thinking. IIRC they had a 5.0 motor with these heads cranking out 600+ horsepower NA without breaking a sweat.

[Reno]

omg imagine a fcw crank ka with this 15,000 rpm wohoo

can somebody contact them to see if they can produce a head for us, an if so how much.. (GB) anyone :P

[Crazyirish]

omg imagine a fcw crank ka with this 15,000 rpm wohoo

Thats a mean piston speed of what, 48 meters per second? These heads are great but they aren't magical

[ghx407]

Very interesting...

Even though I'm no engineer, the theory behind the technology makes sense. But I haven't seen any independent testing on this yet, besides possibly EPA. They say they sell motorcycles and generators with their CSRV technology but I haven't seen an owner or review yet.

The closest thing I found to an expert review about the CSRV technology is from their own website and seems to have a photoshopped signature at the end:http://www.coatesengine.com/pd...t.pdf

I'm still skeptical of all the claims they make. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.

[Razi]

The clearances must be super super tight for that thing to spin and create a good seal as it does it.

[motoman399]

pretty nuts. but i like it.. wonder how it does with boost??

[tero404]

that does look really cool, like a rx-7 and a 240 had a baby and this is it xD;

like crazyirish said, there cool looking but there not magical. u have to think of what would go wrong too. for instance what if the ka engine was a interference engine and the piston hit that rotary valve and bent it letting oil get through, so now ur car runs like crap and burns oil o-o.another thing is that its a high compression cylinder head. so boosting it would probably break something. something has got to give in there.

on the plus side it has low emissions to save all the duckies and bunnies

[S13FX]

Sure it will create higher compression but at the same time they state it lowers EGT's so it's not that bad of trade off. It also says engines equipped with it are less prone to knock.

I guess someone tries it we won't know.

But I like the idea less moving parts, and it actually works.

[oz240red]

That's so f$%n creative. I can see how the exhaust gasses are pushed out. But how is the mixture pulled in? Is it because the piston creates a vaccum effect on the small chamber??....

[Chris28]

That's so f$%n creative. I can see how the exhaust gasses are pushed out. But how is the mixture pulled in? Is it because the piston creates a vaccum effect on the small chamber??....

Yep, same idea as with valves, it's just instead of a valve opening up it's like a little chamber has been opened up. This is really interesting. Extremely innovative, that's for sure. If it created a good seal, it would make for a much more rev happy engine. No more floating valves. That is thinking right there. Good stuff.

[nissan_star]

now wait a sec, besides my curiousity about the seal, what about turbo?If boost/pressure is aplied to the intake charge would it naturally turn the valvle? thus creating an acceleration of the vavletrain as boost is increased? so the rpms would climb respectivly with boost? that seems like a fun dd

would having a set intake charge volume automatically limit power production? instead of filling an intake manifold then going directly to the piston, it goes to a chamber of size x and size x fills the piston.

[Chris28]

All a turbo does is cram air into the cylinder, it doesn't have anything to do with the size of the cylinder. Think of these rotary valves as camshafts. They are spun via a belt or chain, not by pressure. I'm sure they did the math to figure out what size to make the "valve", i mean it's just like cam duration. With boost, the same principle applies. Since the math has been done, if you can put compressed air into the "valve" area, then the compressed air "should" be directly translated into the cylinder.

With these heads I can see a higher RPM being attainable, but i think performance would suffer. I'm going to contradict my precious statement but I think the performance gains with boost will be limited by the size of the "valve" thing. I suppose it will translate to the duration of a normal valve, but this whole thing seems kind of fishy haha.

[eazye2000]

now wait a sec, besides my curiousity about the seal, what about turbo?

would having a set intake charge volume automatically limit power production? instead of filling an intake manifold then going directly to the piston, it goes to a chamber of size x and size x fills the piston.

I understand where you are going. I spent all last night trying to find a way to explain my concerns. Which are almost exactly what you have just said.

Basically, for perspective purposes, this is what I have so far.The cylinder is a 1lb coffee can. The 'spherical valve area' is a bathroom dixie cup.How is pressurizing that 'dixie' cup at first, and then having it decompress into the 'coffee can' going to be a good way to turbo?Whereas, before, we were straight up pressurizing, and filling the coffee can directly with fuel and air..?

I know there is a better way to explain this. And possibly my concerns can be answered.But like stated before, these things are designed, right now, to be efficient. Maybe in a side view, the 'valve' could be 'wider' because that front view is skewing the big picture for me.

I don't know, it's early, and I may have more by the end of today.

*edit* I'm looking at it as there not being a direct 'line of sight' from the intake runner with the injector, to the cylinder. That's what I'm looking at. *

....discuss.

[ghx407]

would having a set intake charge volume automatically limit power production? instead of filling an intake manifold then going directly to the piston, it goes to a chamber of size x and size x fills the piston.

The cylinder is a 1lb coffee can. The 'spherical valve area' is a bathroom dixie cup.How is pressurizing that 'dixie' cup at first, and then having it decompress into the 'coffee can' going to be a good way to turbo?Whereas, before, we were straight up pressurizing, and filling the coffee can directly with fuel and air..?

Perhaps CSRV technology would require a new approach to turbocharging which takes into account the total volume of the intake valvetrain instead of the short block's displacement. Turbocharging is nothing more than a way to make a given engine more efficient; to improve power output for a given engine size. Maybe engine efficiency is so much improved with CSRV that turbocharging would not make the drastic difference it makes now. Our power goals could then be attained with milder turbo builds.

The other issue that occurred to me while while thinking about CSRV and turbocharging was that the pressurized air would leak through the clearances between the rotary valve's air pocket and the head body. Perhaps the valve is rotating so fast there would be little "leak time" and this loss would be negligible.

I read that Coates has had some problems with with lubrication and overheating exhaust valves in a press release to their stockholders, but that they had supposedly solved them with some newly patented technology: http://www.coatesengine.com/press_releases.html (at the bottom).

Apparently, they must have some other unresolved issues with CSRV because they have been trying to get this off the ground since at least 1999, but haven't been so successful. Look at the date on this article: http://www.projecttransam.com/coates.htm

Anyways, here's a motorcycle with a CSRV engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU8mkSml0CE


Modified by ghx407 at 8:13 AM 12/9/2008

[nissan_star]

All a turbo does is cram air into the cylinder, it doesn't have anything to do with the size of the cylinder. Think of these rotary valves as camshafts. They are spun via a belt or chain, not by pressure.

what im saying is that when the intake rotor is opened into the pressurized intake manifold, will the pressurized air push the valve like wind on a sail and there fore take load of the valvetrain therefore making it more effiecent.

eazye2000: you said it exactly how i was thinking it was

[martins_240sx]

I dont think you would really need boost. Think about it, essentially this thing almost acts a supercharger, well atleast one that is on some of the vehicles Ive seen in the military. If you had a larger sphere, one that gulps more air, then it would also push more air into the cumbustion chamber making more power, ie forced induction. aso the post where you where talking about the piston hitting the valve train and leaking oil...nothing enters the combustion chamber. its like a revolving door. and there is no oiling in the head so they say, so even if it magically did hit up there nothing would leak, it would be for more catostrophic. Also with the tolerences being so close it would solve the problem of carbon deposits on the valve train. It would act as a scraper on the sphere. since the carbon is produced in the cumbustion chamber it would be scraped off before it left because of the tight tolerences, and would be shot out at the exhaust stroke. you would also have the oportunity to run ridiculous rpms. this design is amazing. Also since ther is no oiling in the head there would be no need for a valve cover. 855 Cu. In. displacement Inline 6 cylinder HP 174 to 280 depending on the quality of the natural gas Patented worldwide CSRV technology Ultra low emissions CSRV system requires zero maintenance for the life of the engine Engine oil replacements are extended Low fuel consumption Adaptable to natural gas, propane, digested land fill gas, hydrogen, and other fuels such as diesel putting out over 400 HP and putting out up to 300 KWH continuous power

Have you guys also seen there infinite adjusting wheel bearing
Modified by martins_240sx at 9:40 AM 12/9/2008

[martins_240sx]

I was reading up some more and found this.....\/CIL has already completed forty-two prototypes of different types and sizes equipped with the spherical rotary valve system, five for automobiles and four for motorcycles. The most recent automobile prototype has been started over 7,000 times and has been road tested over 40,000 miles and has been running for more than fourteen years.

[cmoody2006]

This is simply amazing! 14850 rpm's! anyone else catch that in the video? If you notice they're running the rotating shaft's by gears attached at the ends... kind of like our current camshaft's do now.... Every motor out there could be re-engineered to use this technology! I'm still curious how those shaft's would seal up the combustion chamber and how close those tolerances are!

Just think if you were to configure this setup to run off hydrogen...

and used electrolysis to break water down into oxygen and hydrogen... You could litterally run this setup off simply what we all need to survive WATER! It's been done in internal combustion engines using valve technology but it couldn't be done without retarding the timing. Hydrogen burns cooler than gasoline but puts out more bang for it's buck... Hence why you have to retard the timing on valve technology... With this new rotating shaft/chamber idea it could compensate for that retardation that's needed in current engines....

I'm suprised oil company's aren't trying to shut this research down like a lot of other great inventions

[S13FX]

Could this mean super duper efficient direct port injection engines. WOO WOO.

I mean from the looks of the pictures it look like the injector is build right into the cylinder, and when the cylinder is on its intake cycle wouldn't it mean it sprays the fuel directly into the chamber mixing it with the air, there for creating an all around type direct port injection system,

Now thats bad ***.

ok Edit, I'm a retarded looking more closely into it I don't see how it would possible to put a injector in the cylinder so what the screw the injector sprays fuel into the cylinder then the cylinder dumps the fuel in the chamber like bucket?

Any one find how fuel is injected into this?

[nissan_star]

I dont think you would really need boost. Think about it, essentially this thing almost acts a supercharger, well atleast one that is on some of the vehicles Ive seen in the military. If you had a larger sphere, one that gulps more air, then it would also push more air into the cumbustion chamber making more power, ie forced induction.

I dont think this is true. Looking at your roots supercharger above, seems similar but it is fed off of the rotating assembly by gears that make it spin much faster then the actual valvetrain. Take that into acount, however, and imagine the rotor valves spining twice around during the intake charge, therefore it could be adding slight boost like your supercharger...

Also, we need to find out what is wrong with these rotor valves to explain why this is the first most of us have heard of it.

[ghx407]

Any one find how fuel is injected into this?

Carburetors???



I guess it could also work with TBI or Port Injection, idk...

[the converted]

There is flow through on these "cams", it's just a little hard to see. Air goes in through the sides and then through the center into the head, and opposite on the way out. It is very interesting to think about although a few of the claims leave me doubting how truthful this really is.

It says that a 5 liter engine that went to 5700 rpm (I’m going to assume ford here) was able to go to 14850 rpm. There is no way that it could survive that. Also their claim of high exhaust gas temperature seems off, as it's more of an effect of ignition timing that valve phasing. Wasted heat is also wasted energy and therefore a loss of efficiency.

Just doesn’t seem right to me. This is basicaly turning a 4 stroke engine into a rotary, and i'd be willing to bet that there is less energy wasted turning the triangles of death than accelerating and decerating a piston.

[martins_240sx]

why couldnt it survive that. there is no recipricating mas, its all fluid movement. bottom end and top end. i could understand the heat from the exhaust ports but all they would have to do is develope a coolant jacket or oil jacket of some sort.

[Crazyirish]

There is reciprocating mass. All this technology does is replace the valvetrain. The rest of the motor is still there. Anyone who has worked on a 5.0 engine (yes they are talking about a ford motor) knows that the bottom end ain't gonna live long at that speed.

[the converted]

why couldnt it survive that. there is no recipricating mass

I take it you forgot about the pistons? I can only imagine the size of the rods you would need to rev that high.

[martins_240sx]

yep you got me...well there is none in the head

[spooled240]

this is interesting but i think they overstated the benefits. Sure it is more efficient but realistically, how much gas are you gonna save with this system? Not a whole lot if you are revving over 10,000 rpms lol

Very interesting design tho, I just wonder how much maintenance it is going to need. It seems that the spherical valves will begin to leak and the engine will lose compression. But maybe not, rotary engines use this kind of valve system and the new rx-8 engine is very refined and dependable so this may be a great technological breakthough.

[Seishuku]

It is a pretty cool design, and would make "cam regrinds" possible for anyone with a die grinder/dremel.

[nelson8708]

you would be getting rid of so much parasitic (spelling pwned) drag from not having cams that need to push down on the valve springs and what not.

One of my buddies did a paper over this in my engine performance class.