AZhitman wrote:Micah - Shall I prepare an order for you for Christmas?
Ho Ho Ho!
Not yet. Unfortunately, I don't have a G35c yet. I'm looking to get one the early part of next year and making plans for it now. Can't wait.
New BRM products for the G35!!!
Re: New BRM products for the G35!!!
AZhitman wrote:BIG NEWS!!!
BRM now has headers and a cat-back exhaust for all you G35 coupe owners... Not on the http://www.brmusa.com website yet, but you can call BRM for details or email me.
Who's gonna be first?!
BRM- is that the same company as the old F1 team?
Re: New BRM products for the G35!!!
AZhitman wrote:BIG NEWS!!!
BRM now has headers and a cat-back exhaust for all you G35 coupe owners... Not on the http://www.brmusa.com website yet, but you can call BRM for details or email me.
Who's gonna be first?!
What is the noise level on these? How loud is the header/exhaust setup, both inside the car and outside the car, both at cruise and at full throttle?
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AZhitman
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No relation to the old F1 team.
The catback adds minimal additional sound - It's actually not even noticeable at idle, just a more throaty roar at WOT.
I don't have actual dB readings, but then again I don't own a G so it's hard to describe. Certainly for an Infiniti we're not gonna build something that sounds like a fart-canned Honda.
The catback adds minimal additional sound - It's actually not even noticeable at idle, just a more throaty roar at WOT.
I don't have actual dB readings, but then again I don't own a G so it's hard to describe. Certainly for an Infiniti we're not gonna build something that sounds like a fart-canned Honda.
Quote »Please inform people that they will need to be concerned with the a/f ratios after installing headers. Most VQ engines run lean (anywhere from 15:1 to 17:1 in the upper rpm ranges) after adding headers.[/quote] Hey guys, can you help me out pls? What a/f issues might I need to deal with if installing BMR or Crawford headers, Carsound high-flow cats and Stillen or Borla cat-back exhaust pkg for my '04 6MT sedan? I see the comment re: cat-backs and wonder how much benefit the above "whole system" replacement would add over just hf cats, y-pipe, new resonator with stock pipes and muffler? Appreciate your comments, thanks.
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AZhitman
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I'm not sure I catch your drift, dholly - Perhaps you could clarify your comment, especially given the "rolling of the eyes" - I'll admit I'm a bit perplexed by that.
I'm a Consultant and Sales Manager for BRM USA - But I'm always open to feedback and suggestions from "more informed" individuals.
If you're a little upset that you didn't get a response, let's do this: Please repost your question in the Nissan Online Mechanic section, attention NISTECH. I could answer, but I am not the absolute expert that Scott (NISTECH) is. Hope this helps.
I'm a Consultant and Sales Manager for BRM USA - But I'm always open to feedback and suggestions from "more informed" individuals.
If you're a little upset that you didn't get a response, let's do this: Please repost your question in the Nissan Online Mechanic section, attention NISTECH. I could answer, but I am not the absolute expert that Scott (NISTECH) is. Hope this helps.
Simple, I'm researching exhaust mods for my G sedan and expressed some interest in learning more about the products you offer. No biggie, but when the sales door opens, I normally run through it. Can you provide additional detail to what you already have mentioned here? I will email you for pricing if you prefer.
BTW, I posted here because the earlier comments in this thread touch on the same concerns I have about doing exhaust mods, particularly a full system replacement with headers, and lean a/f. I know just enough to understand there is reason to be cautious. Unfortunately, there is a lack of detailed info or dyno evidence how headers affect power, torque and a/f on G sedan vq's (I searched first) here and at the other G forums that I can find. With no info to go on, just how does one go about making an INTELLIGENT decision? I.e., is it possible to determine if BRM header torque and power curves are complimentary to the new Stillen or Borla cat-back for sedan. Or would any combo rob you of either? What happen's when you add hf cats, etc., to either? I know 5AT's can correct a/f with TS ECU, but what about 6MT's?
Obviously, I got questions, but there is a total lack of dyno evidence to refer to. Just too early in the life cycle I guess. So, nah, I'm really not upset at all. Maybe a bit disappointed. Hoping some knowlegeable folks might help out. This is not my vocation and I'll be the first to admit I need help to do it right. I'll echo rydwhite's comments - any guidance IS appreciated. Thanks again.
BTW, I posted here because the earlier comments in this thread touch on the same concerns I have about doing exhaust mods, particularly a full system replacement with headers, and lean a/f. I know just enough to understand there is reason to be cautious. Unfortunately, there is a lack of detailed info or dyno evidence how headers affect power, torque and a/f on G sedan vq's (I searched first) here and at the other G forums that I can find. With no info to go on, just how does one go about making an INTELLIGENT decision? I.e., is it possible to determine if BRM header torque and power curves are complimentary to the new Stillen or Borla cat-back for sedan. Or would any combo rob you of either? What happen's when you add hf cats, etc., to either? I know 5AT's can correct a/f with TS ECU, but what about 6MT's?
Obviously, I got questions, but there is a total lack of dyno evidence to refer to. Just too early in the life cycle I guess. So, nah, I'm really not upset at all. Maybe a bit disappointed. Hoping some knowlegeable folks might help out. This is not my vocation and I'll be the first to admit I need help to do it right. I'll echo rydwhite's comments - any guidance IS appreciated. Thanks again.
I wish I could answer your questions, but I have been trying to find similar things myself wiht not a whole lot of luck. Most mods that are out there that people are doing for the G are made for Z's. While the 2 cars are very similar in most respects, there will be some differences. It is hard to get good numbers for any of this becuase each sort helps or hurts the other. You can get certain gains in certain areas with certain mods, but that is not going to show a peak performance across the board. Dyno numbers are needed for each mod and what combinations of mods produce certain numbers and gains or losses at which specific points on the dyno curves. I think that the car is just too young to have all of those numbers yet. Plus, the G35 parts are just now starting to come out separate from the Z. I am hoping that by the begining to middle of 2004 there will be some really nice numbers on most of the things you are inquiring about.
Sometimes it is hard to be patient when it comes to such a great car with so much potential. Trust me, I'm right there with you. I'm pretty new to the VQ engine and I'm trying to learn about it and all of the products to determine what will be best for me and my car, but it is hard to do, when their are no real numbers or answers out there. Hang in there. We'll have our day soon, hopefully.
Ryan
Sometimes it is hard to be patient when it comes to such a great car with so much potential. Trust me, I'm right there with you. I'm pretty new to the VQ engine and I'm trying to learn about it and all of the products to determine what will be best for me and my car, but it is hard to do, when their are no real numbers or answers out there. Hang in there. We'll have our day soon, hopefully.
Ryan
A/F concerns
ok, I have been working on this exact same problem for about two years with the VQ35DE.
what I have found out on the altima's version and confirmed by a conversation with technosquareinc is:
the car's computer is most likely going to run lean with headers and the plenum. I have seen 15-17:1 a/f ratios with similar mods on my altima. I have a G sedan now. 350z's have seen high 14's. to extract the most potential out of your engine you will want to run around 12.5:1 to 13.5:1.
around 300 crank hp, the stock fuel system starts reaching its max capablities and either need more aggressive fuel maps, higher pressure and or bigger injectors.
technosquare (the ecu guys) redid the ecu on a stock g sedan, and lost power. they are currently redoing it with an aftermarket exhaust and should have it released within a few weeks.
I will chip in towards your dyno costs (email me) if you dyno. just like you I need more info. If you would like some automatic transmission altima dyno graphs email me and i can send them to you. I have a/f, with and without headers, with intake, with CAI/WAI/stock airbox, with and without under drive pulley. they are a little confusing as it is an AT, but it can help.
Additionally peruse g35 driver to look at more hp curves.
what I have found out on the altima's version and confirmed by a conversation with technosquareinc is:
the car's computer is most likely going to run lean with headers and the plenum. I have seen 15-17:1 a/f ratios with similar mods on my altima. I have a G sedan now. 350z's have seen high 14's. to extract the most potential out of your engine you will want to run around 12.5:1 to 13.5:1.
around 300 crank hp, the stock fuel system starts reaching its max capablities and either need more aggressive fuel maps, higher pressure and or bigger injectors.
technosquare (the ecu guys) redid the ecu on a stock g sedan, and lost power. they are currently redoing it with an aftermarket exhaust and should have it released within a few weeks.
I will chip in towards your dyno costs (email me) if you dyno. just like you I need more info. If you would like some automatic transmission altima dyno graphs email me and i can send them to you. I have a/f, with and without headers, with intake, with CAI/WAI/stock airbox, with and without under drive pulley. they are a little confusing as it is an AT, but it can help.
Additionally peruse g35 driver to look at more hp curves.
Total system replacement
when replacing exhaust and intake components, youneed to take into account the system was designed as a whole system.
When you pull the muffler off a sedan for example you will lose torque unless you make it somewhere else.
you can make torque by going with a short ram intake or in your headers (check each header style out for dyno graphs) or you can run a 2.25 inch exhaust pipe. All these are tradeoffs for something else. Noone knows the best route yet.
if you run 2.25" piping for a single exhaust you will lose high end hp as 2.5" piping is the best size for this engine.
this thing is infinitely switchable.
Personally IMHO, according to your post you want to spend ~3000 plus labor (another 1000.00 guestimate).
for another 2000.00 you can have a supercharger installed making 360 whp.
my advice save up for a S/C, T/C or TT setup.
When you pull the muffler off a sedan for example you will lose torque unless you make it somewhere else.
you can make torque by going with a short ram intake or in your headers (check each header style out for dyno graphs) or you can run a 2.25 inch exhaust pipe. All these are tradeoffs for something else. Noone knows the best route yet.
if you run 2.25" piping for a single exhaust you will lose high end hp as 2.5" piping is the best size for this engine.
this thing is infinitely switchable.
Personally IMHO, according to your post you want to spend ~3000 plus labor (another 1000.00 guestimate).
for another 2000.00 you can have a supercharger installed making 360 whp.
my advice save up for a S/C, T/C or TT setup.
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AZhitman
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dholly - Here's what I have:
These are IDENTICAL to the NISMO units, with the following exceptions: The BRM units are TIG welded as opposed to MIG welded, and have a cleaner finish on all seams and welds (NISMO units are mass-produced and not as clean).
T-304 Stainless construction, OR, you can get them in a zinc-plated steel design ($200 cheaper for the set), both with billet stainless flanges.
Dyno #'s: 9hp in the 3800-6000 rpm range, 13 hp and 13 lb/ft at peak. These are averaged, with several results both above and below these numbers being discarded as anomalies.
There are SO many "bad" dyno "charts" being passed about out there it's hard to tell what's real and what's not, and it's a shame that companies advertise HUGE horsepower gains from these types of mods - if there were that many "hidden" horsepower available, trust me, Nissan would have taken advantage of it...
Stillen and Borla units are almost identical in tubing size, length, collector size and construction, so there should be little to no difference in performance gains. In addition, the catbacks designed by BRM are almost identical to those marketed by Stillen and Borla.
Based on our engineers' findings, I'd steer clear of any "true duals" as these have been shown to rob low-end torque.
The cats are pretty unrestrictive on both cars - No real sense replacing these.
As far as your question on the ECU, again, I'd direct that to NISTECH. On the test car, all Consult readings appear well wirthin normal operating ranges, which means the ECU adjusts to the new "freer flowing" exhaust. Shouldn't be any difference between the MT and AT ECU capabilities.
Hope this answers most of your questions...
These are IDENTICAL to the NISMO units, with the following exceptions: The BRM units are TIG welded as opposed to MIG welded, and have a cleaner finish on all seams and welds (NISMO units are mass-produced and not as clean).
T-304 Stainless construction, OR, you can get them in a zinc-plated steel design ($200 cheaper for the set), both with billet stainless flanges.
Dyno #'s: 9hp in the 3800-6000 rpm range, 13 hp and 13 lb/ft at peak. These are averaged, with several results both above and below these numbers being discarded as anomalies.
There are SO many "bad" dyno "charts" being passed about out there it's hard to tell what's real and what's not, and it's a shame that companies advertise HUGE horsepower gains from these types of mods - if there were that many "hidden" horsepower available, trust me, Nissan would have taken advantage of it...
Stillen and Borla units are almost identical in tubing size, length, collector size and construction, so there should be little to no difference in performance gains. In addition, the catbacks designed by BRM are almost identical to those marketed by Stillen and Borla.
Based on our engineers' findings, I'd steer clear of any "true duals" as these have been shown to rob low-end torque.
The cats are pretty unrestrictive on both cars - No real sense replacing these.
As far as your question on the ECU, again, I'd direct that to NISTECH. On the test car, all Consult readings appear well wirthin normal operating ranges, which means the ECU adjusts to the new "freer flowing" exhaust. Shouldn't be any difference between the MT and AT ECU capabilities.
Hope this answers most of your questions...
Ryan thanks. It's true, I am an impatient SOB frustrated by the early cycle thing particularly since the Stillen sedan exhaust is now shipping. Of the only two catback options for G sedan, I am a fan of their X-pipe vs. Borlas H-pipe cat-back. Better exhaust gas scavaging design IMO.
I know it's too soon to have all the combo's dyno'd out, but isn't there a rule of thumb to help start me out here? I don't necessarily need the absolute highest hp gain, but I definately don't want to kill low rpm torque to get high end hp gains. Stillen's stand-alone numbers look pretty good and it adds grunt down low, but opening the whole system up with headers, HF cats and then the Stillen catback makes me wonder if that would just kill backpressure and low end torque. Aren't there any calculations to do on paper that can be helpful, rather than designing by trial-and-error?
Re: potential a/f issues - I am under the impression that the 6MT sedan ECU a/f mapping is set much less conservative than the 5AT. Shouldn't that work to my advatage? What's the chances I will still need to upgrade my ECU in a full header back system replacement? Ed-u-ma-cate me please!
I know it's too soon to have all the combo's dyno'd out, but isn't there a rule of thumb to help start me out here? I don't necessarily need the absolute highest hp gain, but I definately don't want to kill low rpm torque to get high end hp gains. Stillen's stand-alone numbers look pretty good and it adds grunt down low, but opening the whole system up with headers, HF cats and then the Stillen catback makes me wonder if that would just kill backpressure and low end torque. Aren't there any calculations to do on paper that can be helpful, rather than designing by trial-and-error?
Re: potential a/f issues - I am under the impression that the 6MT sedan ECU a/f mapping is set much less conservative than the 5AT. Shouldn't that work to my advatage? What's the chances I will still need to upgrade my ECU in a full header back system replacement? Ed-u-ma-cate me please!
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sachmo12345
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AZhitman wrote:Stillen and Borla units are almost identical in tubing size, length, collector size and construction, so there should be little to no difference in performance gains. In addition, the catbacks designed by BRM are almost identical to those marketed by Stillen and Borla.
Based on our engineers' findings, I'd steer clear of any "true duals" as these have been shown to rob low-end torque.
The cats are pretty unrestrictive on both cars - No real sense replacing these.
As a true performance junkie, your catback will change more times than you can count. the combo of catback, cats, y pipe and headers are infinitely tunable. As Greg says, the cat don't make a huge difference here but on the Z they have been shown to make 9 hp with a high flow cat, however, it has been shown to lose torque and make hi end hp by removing them.
you gots to decide what you want out of your car....... high end, low end, total area under the curve, sound. The exhaust can do all this for you.
Still waiting on the dyno chart to make my decision
Greg - I was under the impression, all other things being equal, that the 2.5" X-pipe design will work better on the sedan than a 2.25" H-pipe. Why wouldn't that logic follow the 350z shootout results and what some G coupe owners are reporting?
vq35de - thanks, your willingness to type details is much appreciated. I want full curve hp gains with no low and mid curve torque loss, of course. Doesn't everybody? Am I picking up that you suspect the most cost effective G sedan exhaust will involve leaving the stock exhaust manifolds, cats, pipes and muffler intact. Perhaps simply swapping out the premuffler with a Magnaflow muffler/resonator to maintain backpressure? I just saw where the first Power Enterprise TT is going on a G coupe. I'm having a hard time visualizing 500rwhp on my sedan! Can this engine hold up or is it likely to be a maintenance nigtmare?
vq35de - thanks, your willingness to type details is much appreciated. I want full curve hp gains with no low and mid curve torque loss, of course. Doesn't everybody? Am I picking up that you suspect the most cost effective G sedan exhaust will involve leaving the stock exhaust manifolds, cats, pipes and muffler intact. Perhaps simply swapping out the premuffler with a Magnaflow muffler/resonator to maintain backpressure? I just saw where the first Power Enterprise TT is going on a G coupe. I'm having a hard time visualizing 500rwhp on my sedan! Can this engine hold up or is it likely to be a maintenance nigtmare?
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AZhitman
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dholly - Your impression is correct. The problem some are having is with a "true dual" system, there is insufficient backpressure and a resultant loss of torque.
vq - Still waiting on printouts myself - Keep in mind, like I said, that several runs were averaged together, with the real outlyers being discarded.
The good news? No loss of low RPM torque. The bad news? There is no "magic bullet" that gives more than 13-15hp gains.
vq - Still waiting on printouts myself - Keep in mind, like I said, that several runs were averaged together, with the real outlyers being discarded.
The good news? No loss of low RPM torque. The bad news? There is no "magic bullet" that gives more than 13-15hp gains.
I'm not sure if you guys consider the new Stillen and Borla sedan catbacks to be "true duals"? I can't say about the Borla, they use a pre-muffler which may incorporate (and hide) an enclosed H-pipe (like the 350z/G35c system) or even X-pipe, but nobody knows or has opened one up yet. There are dynos showing no loss of torque in the low-mid band for Stillen. a true dual in my eyes.
dholly:
I honestly don't know what will work best. My next step is either Xerd or BRM headers. The Xerd eliminate the cat which is fine where I live (no emissions test). The BRM I would combine with the Random Technology Hi Flow cats
as far as the stock muffler, it is very good at what it does. I worsened 0.2 seconds inthe quarter mile (all on the launch) by installing a magnaflow 10436 resonator, a 14830 muffler and 2.5" pipe. Based on the launch times going worse, I suspect torque and I think the muff is the culprit. Now I have the stock muffler, 2.5" catback piping and the 22" resonator.
However, with an ECU upgrade I expect the catback to make power. I think it is just the ECU in the 6MT is already well tuned to the exact system we have. Technosquare seems to have confirmed this as they're having similar problems with the stock setup. I would love to talk to you regarding this isht, email me your phone number or I will give you mine.
Greg: Thanks for working on those dyno's. Personally I would like to see all you got just to see what the VQ does. It is an extremely eccentric engine due to its fickle knock sensor and learning ECU. I bet the anomalous dyno reads you guys got can be traced back to knock/timing retardation
I honestly don't know what will work best. My next step is either Xerd or BRM headers. The Xerd eliminate the cat which is fine where I live (no emissions test). The BRM I would combine with the Random Technology Hi Flow cats
as far as the stock muffler, it is very good at what it does. I worsened 0.2 seconds inthe quarter mile (all on the launch) by installing a magnaflow 10436 resonator, a 14830 muffler and 2.5" pipe. Based on the launch times going worse, I suspect torque and I think the muff is the culprit. Now I have the stock muffler, 2.5" catback piping and the 22" resonator.
However, with an ECU upgrade I expect the catback to make power. I think it is just the ECU in the 6MT is already well tuned to the exact system we have. Technosquare seems to have confirmed this as they're having similar problems with the stock setup. I would love to talk to you regarding this isht, email me your phone number or I will give you mine.
Greg: Thanks for working on those dyno's. Personally I would like to see all you got just to see what the VQ does. It is an extremely eccentric engine due to its fickle knock sensor and learning ECU. I bet the anomalous dyno reads you guys got can be traced back to knock/timing retardation
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AZhitman
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vq35de wrote:Greg: Thanks for working on those dyno's. Personally I would like to see all you got just to see what the VQ does. It is an extremely eccentric engine due to its fickle knock sensor and learning ECU. I bet the anomalous dyno reads you guys got can be traced back to knock/timing retardation
I'm pretty sure you're right here.
As it takes several miles of driving at varying throttle positions and load for the ECU to recognize and adapt to the varying rates of flow, it's just not feasible to "throw them on and test". Which probably led to our weird results.
I'm thinking we'll get a couple sets installed and let the owners drive them for a while under real-world conditions and THEN run some dyno numbers, once the ECU has had time to relearn the proper a/f mixture across the rpm band under load.
Been trying to find a local shop that can do the catback install and before/after pulls, but that is proving a bit more difficult than I expected. Grrr. I can do it but I really don't want to do this on a cold garage floor and I really, really want the before/after dynos from my own car with as little time lag as possible to help minimize variables.
In the interim, can you guys help me with: what type of dyno to use; what settings, i.e. smoothing, etc. I should be requesting for that particular machine; is it best do 6MT sedan pulls in 5th gear for 1:1? What the top speed will be hit in the session, i.e. got the 90mph rated winter skins on - I presume I'll need to bring along my stock rear wheels/tires to swap for the pulls?
You get the drift...I'm looking for any and all dyno tips to get the best/most data from the pulls. My (gasp!) 1st time on the dyno and I want to do it right. These will be my baselines for future mods. Thanks.
In the interim, can you guys help me with: what type of dyno to use; what settings, i.e. smoothing, etc. I should be requesting for that particular machine; is it best do 6MT sedan pulls in 5th gear for 1:1? What the top speed will be hit in the session, i.e. got the 90mph rated winter skins on - I presume I'll need to bring along my stock rear wheels/tires to swap for the pulls?
You get the drift...I'm looking for any and all dyno tips to get the best/most data from the pulls. My (gasp!) 1st time on the dyno and I want to do it right. These will be my baselines for future mods. Thanks.