Need small SUV advice...

[AZhitman]

The time has come to replace our beloved '90 Suburban 4x4, which I'll be doing in the next few months.

I've narrowed the options down to 2 vehicles, both of which I'm pretty fond of. Whichever one I buy, it'll be:

1997 or 98V-6 automatic2-wheel drive (maybe 4x4)cloth interior

I'm down to either the Pathfinder and the 4Runner. (I don't care about brand loyalty, nor do I care about which one "looks cooler".)

I'm curious to know what you guys know about these, and I mean from a car-guy point of view.

Thanks!

[MainEvent212]

pathfinder is a strong truck, i had a 98 SE...it's not too awful truck wise...very bouncey, never driven a 4runner but i suppose it sucks cuz it's not nissan

[90Q45blue]

I don't know about the Pathfinder but the 4Runner is waay too top-heavy. I've seen too many people with their 4Runner on its side. I believe this was a known problem in 4Runners and Explorers but they did nothing to fix the problem.

Nick

P.S. You'll enjoy the suspension of the Pathfinder more.

[Meantime]

I've driven both, the Nissan was my college buddy's and the 4Runner was my aunt's. The Pathfinder is more "trucky" (bouncy ride, torquey, kind of noisy) but I liked it much better, it felt the way an SUV should, and it's a very reliable truck, no problems on it so far - I think he has a '96 or '97, also.

The 4Runner is a nice truck also, but it feels a little strange in handling, almost kind of vague (maybe related to that top-heaviness you mentioned, Q), and I didn't particularly like the feel of the suspension on bumpy roads, there's less feedback IMO. The engine is adequate but doesn't feel as "oomphy" as the Pathfinder's. Now it was a '95 4Runner so this comparison may be kind of invalid, but that's what my impressions were from driving both.

[Jesda]

With the 4Runner, watch out for sludge issues.With the Pathfinder, its pretty much tried and true all around. Award-winning V6, rock solid reliability, good resale value, excellent interior fit and finish.

Both two very close SUVs, but you might get a better value out of the Nissan.

[MetaOrbit]

My mom has a 2000 Pathfinder...pretty much the same as the ones you're looking at with a revised front fascia.

I like it a LOT. It's solid as far as I'm concerned, and as far as truck-like utility goes, it seems to be one of the best.

I've driven both vehicles, and I think they're about equal...I tend to think the Pathfinder is more "truck-like" as some one mentioned before. Their on road capabilities are about the same (though the Pathfinder seems more stable - I attribute it to the wider track) and I think the Pathfinder beats it once you stray off of paved surfaces...

All IMO though. Do what works best for you...heck - drive em!

[Bubba1]

Well, I happen to own a '97 4Runner SR5 5 speed since new.I never heard about sludge, but she's been a very reliable, comfortable, versatile vehicle. And we usually take it on road trips.The 97' is part time AWD/ 2 ranges and shift on the fly. Its RWD otherwise. I get 18-20 mpg reliably. Both are good choices. My wife's best friend has a Pathfinder which I've driven several times.The Pathfinder is smaller and more car like than the Toyota . The 4 Runner is bigger, closer in size to an Explorer. If you're downsizing from a Suburban, a 4Runner will not feel as cramped as a Pathfinder, especially if you're hauling the wife and kids. As far as handling, the toyota is no sports car, but it's very predictable. I have no complaints. My wifes friend (who's children have flown the nest) loves her Pathfinder, but rarely hauls more than 1 passenger. She uses her A6 for road trips. If you want other info, I'm happy to share experiences. With the 4 Runner, it's been all good.Happy hunting.

[AZhitman]

I've gotta admit, I prefer the fit and finish and appearance of the 4Runner.

Which V6 does each have, and what what other vehicles are the engines common to?

Also, where would I find specs on these (for the 97 model year?)

You guys rock - Keep 'em coming.

[redrocket]

hey hitman check out http://www.edmunds.com you might be able to find some reviews on there about the suv's your looking at

[Bubba1]

Yes, Edmunds is a good place. The 1997 4Runner comes in 3 trim levels, base, SR5 and Limited. Limited is the loaded model, and only comes with an automatic. I wanted a stick so I loaded up an SR5 with all the options that come on the Limited. The big V-6 is very torquey, even with the air on. My wife required leather seats as it's is easier to slide across than cloth, and you pretty much climb up into in a 4Runner. The Pathfinder sits lower. I say fit and finish are about equal. I'm a big Nissan fan, but what ultimately swayed me to the 4runner was it's size.Not too big, not too small, The family,pets, &luggage all fit with room to spare. O thought the Pathfinder was not quite big enough.My few gripes: I regretted not getting the rear air deflector. The back window gets dirty without it, and the front cup holders block the center air conditioner vents and the digital clock (though it keeps your drinks nice and cold). I fully expect to keep mine for many more years.

[[Zero-S]]

I know the Pathfinder came with the VG30DE...

[nametakennow]

Get a wagon, like a Jetta, Passat, or A4 Avant... better gas mileage and can still haul people, unless you NEED 4X4, in which case, Pathfinder seems to be the consensus, and I agree. edit: A4's have Quattro (sometimes) so 4X4 is taken care of...

[Jesda]

Yes, the 4Runner feels more like a luxury SUV. Sludge issues are known to affect many recent Toyotas since 1996, where they can develop severe, even fatal sludge problems.

http://www.yotarepair.com/Sludge_Zone.html

[MainEvent212]

the new pathfinder is a vq35 i think..but hte older model uw ant is a VG30DE...i'm sure of that

and yes it is very cramped w/ 5 adults...and you gotta watch for taking turns too fast, i have gotten wheels off the ground before...VERY SCARY! but i was a dumb driver starting out, thought i was mario andretti or soemthin...

but now i got a sportier mini cooper S at the moment, and i KNOW i'm mario andretti ...lol j/k

[SmithSR]

Toyota V-6 has been the same 190hp, 210lb.ft. 3.4liter 5VZ-FE since '97(or maybe '95-96 iirc).

My '97 Tacoma uses the same drivetrain as the 4Runner you're considering. Toyota drivetrain is the workhorse of the world(notice Iraq footage, and you'll see some Datsuns, and very many toyota trucks with hoods missing, guns mounted in the back, etc) for many years. There is no question in my mind that Toyota beats Nissan for drivetrain ruggedness and durability(in this instance). I've driven, worked on, diagnosed problems with both models of nearly all years.

Toyota has over-engineered many parts of the drivetrain, suspension, chassis, and most important: BRAKES. While Nissan went through their state of flux, Toyota was thriving... building top notch, reliable, durable "small" trucks.

Since we're talking "used" here, fit/finish will be directly related to just how well(or poorly) the previous owner maintained the mechanicals and cared for the interior.

My quick horror story: At 58K, the crank pulley came loose, destroying the crank and causing some real problems. Luckily, the dealer warranted a new block, new crank and all conn/crank bearings, among many other misc parts, and all labor was covered "under warranty". I still can't get an admission that this problem with the crank was known within Toyota. They sure did give away 3 days of labor, and an unknown amount of money in BIG parts pretty quickly though.

I did end up paying for 60K service, water pump replacement, head gasket replacement, trans/diff service, timing belt replacement....proof that looking for the "extras" will bring in dollars, eventually. but that's just shop talk...

Even after that, I'd still pick a Toyota over the Nissan in the years you're looking at. Build quality, overall, is better. I consider my engine trouble to be the exception to the rule of toyota reliability. I've talked with many Toyota owners in the years since the incident, none of which have experienced such problems..

If it's for the wife, I'm sure she'll be quite pleased with it's visibility range from driver position, ease of use for all controls, and basic amenities....nothing over-complicated here. It really is a simple machine...the simplicity is the beauty of it. Assuming no major problems like mine, the low overall cost of ownership, maintenance should keep you happy too. Oh, and most all DIY work is a snap...coming back to the simplicity of Toyota design of these model years.

Phil:rant

[MainEvent212]

1200!...i'm whoring

but yeah, i'd say the pathfinder isnt the best form and function kinda vehicle...it's more of a...yeah i have a SUV kinda thing...not the best for hauling the family around...maybe just a significant other and the dog in the trunk...lol i donno

[lessthanjakejohn]

Tacoma SR5s are so nice, I saw about 100 a day in Hawaii.

[SmithSR]

Chicks drivin every one of 'em, huh?

[Jesda]

Lemme say it again.... SLUDGE

[SmithSR]

Jesda, the article you linked has some neeto info.

"This condition, not unique to Toyota or Lexus products, tends to occur due to three factors. Changing motor oil less frequently than the recommended interval is the primary cause along with short, stop-and-go-driving cycles and cold weather climates."

I'd say <basically> a non-issue in AZ with AZhitman controlling maintenance intervals.

"We're not aware of any cases of oil gelling in properly maintained engines"

PR spin? PR cover your A$$? Perhaps...perhaps not.

"Letters reminding customers about the importance of keeping up with their vehicle's recommended maintenance programs and detailing the specifics of the SPA were sent to owners of potentially affected vehicles beginning in February 2002."

Proving my theory ONCE AGAIN that the majority of automobile owners generally are mindless when it comes to routine maintenance. When a guy thinks it's a hassle to change oil, and decides this week is too busy to do it, things break. Could I be mistaken? Lets read on:

"This is a maintenance issue-We simply have not found one case in which a properly maintained Toyota or Lexus has experienced sludge build-up and the related mechanical problems associated with this condition. The vast majority of our customers follow our recommended maintenance schedules and avoid the risk."

"We are offering assistance under this special program to owners of 1997-2001 Camrys, Solaras, Siennas, Avalons, Celicas and Highlanders as well as 1997-2001 Lexus ES300s and RX300s"

Whew, no mention of the 5VZ-FE 3.4liter V-6 truck engine.

Camry 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01....nope

Camry 6 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01....1MZ-FE(3.0liter)

Solara 4 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01...nope

Solara 6 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01...1MZ-FE(3.0liter)

Sienna 6 cyl. Produced 7/97 - 5/01...1MZ-FE (3.0liter)

Avalon 6 cyl. Produced 7/96 - 5/01...1MZ-FE(3.0liter)

Celica 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 4/99...nope

Highlander 6 cyl. Produced 11/00 - 7/01...1MZ-FE(3.0liter)

You guys see a trend here?? The 1MZ-FE is the only V6 on the list. ALLDATA, where I got engine codes from, lists the '97-'01 Lexus ES300 and RX300's as their name implies...3.0liter V6.

NOT the 5VZ-FE 3.4liter found in the model that the good Hitman is interested in. To summarize, every model listed in Jesda's link does not have the 5VZ-FE 3.4liter, or even a variant. From all available info that I have found, the 3.4liter V6 available in the 4runner, Tacoma, and T100 of the '97-98 model years are not affected by the "sludge" issue.

-Phil:rant

[Megaseth]

We drive a 2002 pathfinder with the new 3.5 VQ. the brakes are almost too good. and it is a little cramped, we took a trip last weekend to the Valley and my GF and i sat in the back seat and we had very little room as we are both near 6' . the front seats are a little stiff and they arent too adjustable. but its pretty damn quick and the ride is decent. you can haul too much in it though. its ok, but if you want a sporty SUV, go with the Xterra, or an older pathfinder. they're good for daily driving around the city, although they have a small gas tank. but from what everyone else says, for the model year you want, go with a 4runner.

[Jesda]

That's Toyota's excuse. In reality, they use a defective PCV valve that causes the problem. They took a shortcut to emissions controls and this is what happened.

Get a Pathfinder.

[Meantime]

I've been reading more about the Toyota sludge issue. While they did take a few shortcuts, the amount of complaints/repairs of sludge-related problems is still pretty small compared to the sheer amount of Camrys/Siennas etc. on the roads. Very strange for something like this to happen with Toyota, and not exactly a reassuring sign from what has evolved into the top quality marque in the world.

Bottom line is, at least Toyota has admitted the problem and is starting to work with their customers. Not that I'm defending them in any way, but put the whole fiasco in perspective with GM's piston-slap issues (where GM won't even admit there is a problem, despite thousands and thousands of engines with the defect) and Ford/Chrysler's transmission/head gasket troubles (where those two clowns refuse to repair anything that hasn't gone solely through their dealership since day one).

[Bubba1]

I don't think you'll make a bad decision with either truck. Jesda: That's quite an anti-Toyota bias. I wouldn't call a '97 4Runner luxurious. (The Land Cruiser is much more luxurious). It's certainly comfortable but it feels more truck-like than many SUV's to me. When I was SUV shopping in 1997, I actually thought the Explorer/Mountaineer had a better ride than both the Pfinder and 4Runner. If you read Consumer Reports, they recommended the 4Runner higher in '97, and the emergency handling was fine. ANY SUV is rollover prone when you overload it and drive like an dope.

If I were buying a new SUV today, I'd look at a Honda Pilot/Acrua MDX, a 4-Runner (of course), or a Toyota Highlander (which is Camry based). Pathfinder is a still fine vehicle but to me the current design is dated. IMHO Nissan needs to update it, and I'm a multi-Nissan owner.

[Bubba1]

Also, I'd consider a Murano before a Pathfinder.

[AZhitman]

I agree the Pathy appears somewhat dated.

Cost being a big concern, there's NO way I can (or would) drop $25 large + on a Murano... The 97/98 Pathy/4Runner in good condition, with 60K on the clock can be had for $13K. Another G for a 3 yr/40K mile warranty, and I'm good to go.

I DON'T like payments.

[Bubba1]

I imagine everything will seem small after driving a luxo-barge like a Suburban. My father had a Suburban for many years, and loved it.

[Nathan]

Whatever you do...stay away from any S10 Blazer...take it from someone who rolled one at 25mph (yes I was being stupid, but still...those things roll VERY easily...the easiest of any small SUV). My choice would be the 4 Runner...The pathfinder, like so many others have said...just seems dated in comparison I actually like 4 Runners a lot and Toyota reliability is top notch (even with that seemingly occasional sludge problem, at least it's not like dodge's issue...)

[AZhitman]

No chance of ANY dumbestic small SUV gracing my garage.

Besides, Quella's REAL picky about who she sleeps with.

[Megaseth]

hehe, dont wanna know whats in her tail pipes... ...we have an S10 blazer and the biggest problem we have is the EGR valve constantly clogging with carbon deposits. infact, we had around $3k of stuff done to ours to try and fix it when all it needed was a good EGR cleaning. and the Murano is altima based, so it will have a nice city ride, but will suck for any offroading, which i dont think AZ's wife will be doing with the new SUV anyway, i may be mistaken though.