Natural gas vehicles

[elwesso]

I have been considering over the last couple weeks on doing something about my current situation in regards to my commute.  My commute is by far my biggest expense, as I drive roughly 20,000-25,000 miles a year alone on basic commuting, not including other personal trips and whatnot.  For the sake of argument though, I will base my figures on 20,000 miles per year of driving.
 
First off, why natural gas?  The major advantage to natural gas is it's cleaner burning (I really don't care about that), and it's readily available at the wholesale level at your house.  The price of natural gas is significantly lower than the price of gasoline, most natural gas is produced domestically, and because of that it is much less susceptible to the volatile price fluctuations we see in gasoline.  Natural gas also has a much higher octane rating, which has the ability to drastically affect engine performance and efficiency, which we won't get into.  Natural gas has an octane rating of about 130, where as we all know most standard gasoline has an octane rating of 87.  The other advantage is that natural gas is considered "renewable", because it can be created from standard biological processes, which again we won't get into right now.
 
First, natural gas cars (and other "alternative fuel") cars are typically expressed in "gallons gasoline equivalent", or GGE.  Basically a GGE is equating the same amount of energy as in one gallon of gasoline.  It all has to do with the energy content per unit weight of the fuel.  You might question how you could compare a compressed gas to a liquid, and by reducing measurements to a "energy per weight" allows us to compare equally, since 1 pound of gasoline is the same amount of "stuff" as one pound of natural gas, propane, ethanol, coal, etc.
 
Natural gas is sold by the gas company by the "therm".  A therm is roughly equivalent to 100 ft^3 of gas at "standard" conditions.  I looked up my local gas supplier, which is NIPSCO, and they charge $0.55/therm.  1 GGE of natural gas is roughly equal to 1.25 Therms.  Therefore, ($0.55/Therm)*(1.25)= $0.71/gallon equivalent.  Basically, by switching to natural gas it would be the same as paying $0.71 per gallon of gasoline.  In other words, you get the same amount of energy for $0.71 in natural gas as you do in a $4 gallon of gasoline (or whatever the price is)
 
So, is a natural gas car feasible?  Currently, there are ways to easily convert your existing car to natural gas that aren't crazy expense (maybe $1000).  However, there is one vehicle that is commercially available to the public, and that's the Honda Civic GX.  It is essentially the same as the standard Honda Civic, except it is fueled by natural gas.  Comparing apples to apples, in general natural gas cars do not get better gas mileage than their gasoline powered counterparts, so the savings comes from the lower cost of natural gas versus gasoline.  We will not get into the particulars on this.
 
Let's neglect the cost of the vehicle, cost of maintenance, etc and only look at the difference in fuel costs per year.  I will be comparing this to my 1994 Infiniti Q45, which is my current daily driver, and a car that averages 30MPG over the course of a year.
 
First, for the Q45.  This car gets a respectable 21 MPG, which is an actual average based on my driving cycle.  Not bad for an 18 year old, V8, 4000lb full size sedan with 193,000 miles on it.  To drive 20,000 miles, I require 952 gallons of gasoline (20,000/21).  At $5/gallon, this equates to $4,760 per year on fuel.  At $4/gallon, it is $3,808 per year.
 
For a 30MPG car, it will require 667 gallons/year (20,000/30)..  That equates to $3,333 per year @ $5/gallon, and $2667 @ $4/gallon.
 
For the Honda Civic, based on my research it is rated at about 26/36 MPGe.  Based on some research I did, the actual fuel economy might be slightly less, and the average range per fill-up is about 200 miles.  The Civic's tank holds 8 GGE of natural gas at 3600 PSI.  Therefore, let's assume (worst case) that the civic gets around 25MPGe.  Therefore, I would require 800 GALe per year, and at $0.71/GGE that would cost $568/year.
 
Summary
Q45 (21 MPG)- $4760 @ $5/gal, $3808 @ $4/gallon ($4192/$3240 more expensive than Civic)
30 MPG Car- $3333 @ $%/gal, $2667 @ $4/gallon ($2760/$2099 more expensive than Civic)
Civic (25 MPG)- $568/year.
 
On the surface, this sounds like I should sell (or scrap) my Q45 tomorrow, but the problem is fueling your vehicle.  There are very few compressed natural gas fuel stations around, and typically you pay a premium over the wholesale costs that you can get at the household level.  Therefore, one should look at a fueling station that is installed in your house.  You would simply plug in your vehicle at night, and every day you would be ready to go with a full tank of fuel.  The cost for these systems usually ends up being around $3000-$4000 after tax breaks, installation, and whatnot.  Read up on the BRC fuel maker "phill".
 
So, it would appear that after 1 year of driving at 20,000 miles neglecting the cost of the vehicle, I could break even on the cost of fuel and the fueling station and after that I would be saving a considerable amount money per year on fuel, assuming that natural gas prices did not spike.  Again, natural gas is a renewable fuel so it can be made at home using natural processes.  However, this vehicle would probably only be practical as a commuter vehicle since you would hate to get stuck out in BFE with no natural gas fuel stations.
 
 

[Bubba1]

I have been considering over the last couple weeks on doing something about my current situation in regards to my commute.  My commute is by far my biggest expense, as I drive roughly 20,000-25,000 miles a year alone on basic commuting, not including other personal trips and whatnot.  For the sake of argument though, I will base my figures on 20,000 miles per year of driving.
 
First off, why natural gas?  The major advantage to natural gas is it's cleaner burning (I really don't care about that), and it's readily available at the wholesale level at your house.  The price of natural gas is significantly lower than the price of gasoline, most natural gas is produced domestically, and because of that it is much less susceptible to the volatile price fluctuations we see in gasoline.  Natural gas also has a much higher octane rating, which has the ability to drastically affect engine performance and efficiency, which we won't get into.  Natural gas has an octane rating of about 130, where as we all know most standard gasoline has an octane rating of 87.  The other advantage is that natural gas is considered "renewable", because it can be created from standard biological processes, which again we won't get into right now.
 
First, natural gas cars (and other "alternative fuel") cars are typically expressed in "gallons gasoline equivalent", or GGE.  Basically a GGE is equating the same amount of energy as in one gallon of gasoline.  It all has to do with the energy content per unit weight of the fuel.  You might question how you could compare a compressed gas to a liquid, and by reducing measurements to a "energy per weight" allows us to compare equally, since 1 pound of gasoline is the same amount of "stuff" as one pound of natural gas, propane, ethanol, coal, etc.
 
Natural gas is sold by the gas company by the "therm".  A therm is roughly equivalent to 100 ft^3 of gas at "standard" conditions.  I looked up my local gas supplier, which is NIPSCO, and they charge $0.55/therm.  1 GGE of natural gas is roughly equal to 1.25 Therms.  Therefore, ($0.55/Therm)*(1.25)= $0.71/gallon equivalent.  Basically, by switching to natural gas it would be the same as paying $0.71 per gallon of gasoline.  In other words, you get the same amount of energy for $0.71 in natural gas as you do in a $4 gallon of gasoline (or whatever the price is)
 
So, is a natural gas car feasible?  Currently, there are ways to easily convert your existing car to natural gas that aren't crazy expense (maybe $1000).  However, there is one vehicle that is commercially available to the public, and that's the Honda Civic GX.  It is essentially the same as the standard Honda Civic, except it is fueled by natural gas.  Comparing apples to apples, in general natural gas cars do not get better gas mileage than their gasoline powered counterparts, so the savings comes from the lower cost of natural gas versus gasoline.  We will not get into the particulars on this.
 
Let's neglect the cost of the vehicle, cost of maintenance, etc and only look at the difference in fuel costs per year.  I will be comparing this to my 1994 Infiniti Q45, which is my current daily driver, and a car that averages 30MPG over the course of a year.
 
First, for the Q45.  This car gets a respectable 21 MPG, which is an actual average based on my driving cycle.  Not bad for an 18 year old, V8, 4000lb full size sedan with 193,000 miles on it.  To drive 20,000 miles, I require 952 gallons of gasoline (20,000/21).  At $5/gallon, this equates to $4,760 per year on fuel.  At $4/gallon, it is $3,808 per year.
 
For a 30MPG car, it will require 667 gallons/year (20,000/30)..  That equates to $3,333 per year @ $5/gallon, and $2667 @ $4/gallon.
 
For the Honda Civic, based on my research it is rated at about 26/36 MPGe.  Based on some research I did, the actual fuel economy might be slightly less, and the average range per fill-up is about 200 miles.  The Civic's tank holds 8 GGE of natural gas at 3600 PSI.  Therefore, let's assume (worst case) that the civic gets around 25MPGe.  Therefore, I would require 800 GALe per year, and at $0.71/GGE that would cost $568/year.
 
Summary
Q45 (21 MPG)- $4760 @ $5/gal, $3808 @ $4/gallon ($4192/$3240 more expensive than Civic)
30 MPG Car- $3333 @ $%/gal, $2667 @ $4/gallon ($2760/$2099 more expensive than Civic)
Civic (25 MPG)- $568/year.
 
On the surface, this sounds like I should sell (or scrap) my Q45 tomorrow, but the problem is fueling your vehicle.  There are very few compressed natural gas fuel stations around, and typically you pay a premium over the wholesale costs that you can get at the household level.  Therefore, one should look at a fueling station that is installed in your house.  You would simply plug in your vehicle at night, and every day you would be ready to go with a full tank of fuel.  The cost for these systems usually ends up being around $3000-$4000 after tax breaks, installation, and whatnot.  Read up on the BRC fuel maker "phill".
 
So, it would appear that after 1 year of driving at 20,000 miles neglecting the cost of the vehicle, I could break even on the cost of fuel and the fueling station and after that I would be saving a considerable amount money per year on fuel, assuming that natural gas prices did not spike.  Again, natural gas is a renewable fuel so it can be made at home using natural processes.  However, this vehicle would probably only be practical as a commuter vehicle since you would hate to get stuck out in BFE with no natural gas fuel stations.
 
 

I wouldn't sell your Q yet. You pretty much summed the limitations with the last paragraph. The nat gas vehicle cannot be used for a destination more than 1/2 a tank of fuel away unless you are certain you not only have a refueling point, but it's open and accessible . This is why municipalities like natural gas for their fleets, They buy the fuel in bulk and the vehicles never get used on long trips. And the fueling station investment is amortized over many years and split among many vehicles. As a private owner, if you can afford a nat gas vehicle for just commuting or local driving, you gota think about how you're gonna get that fuel reliably. It could be pricey to set up a custom station at your home ,plus PRE purchase the fuel (if your storing it at home). After that, you'd still want a old fashioned gasoline vehicle for trips longer than half a tank away. So natural gas might sense IF you keep the operation going long enough to offset the significant money you're investing just to get set up and operate within its limitations. It would also be wise to have a tow service like AAA set up in case you get stuck and run out of nat gas away from home for whatever reason, because you can't ask a buddy to simply bring a couple gallons from wherever they are.

[IanS]

What about dual fueling? Build a CNG injection system for something like the Q. Retain the factory fueling system, and get an engine programer. You loose some trunk space, but get the best of both worlds. Charge the CNG tank at night, and if you need more then the range allowed by it, you have gasolene on tap. You could use the programer to set up dual fuel and ignition tables. The high octane and good cooling effect of the CNG would boost performance as a benifit.

On any given day you only use the cheap CNG. I imagine something similar could be done with LP, but Im not sure.

[zacmil]

I imagine something similar could be done with LP, but Im not sure.

You can. My uncle works for the local gas company and they run all their vehicles on propane. I actually considered buying one of their old decommissioned F-350s, but I didn't really have the cash at the time. They were willing to work out some sort of deal on the fuel and everything.

[danshaz82]

We have a natural gas civic at the dealership I work at. I don't know much about it, but I do know that the trunk space is about half of a normal civic. I also know that it costs more than a normal civic too. I wana say around 30k. I'll double check when I'm done with lunch. And I'm not sure about your area, but the nearest station that sells natural gas by me is about 25 miles away.

[Ozzie]

LP gas is available at all fuel stations around Australia.
LP conversions (Dual fuel systems) have been available since the mid 80's.
We have some public transport (buses) that run on NG. (The majority run on diesel)

[asoomal]

I drive CNG vehicles at work.

NO range whatsoever.

$35 dollars gets you around 250 KM

Edit: The late 90's, early 2000's F150's.

[Rex]

If you want to save a ton on fuel costs, get a used Honda Insight (find Greg's post about the 2 they use) or find a TDi.

[Jesda]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kbsB9I1Ps[/youtube]

[Jesda]

If you want efficiency with luxury, consider the W211 E-class CDI.

Of course, they're not cheap, and buying another car car to save on gas doesn't always make sense.