i have a 1990 ka24e w/ 194k mi on it. i like to drive her fast but i know she wont be able to take the stress for long. i dont have much money but i am aiming to get high end power out of my engine. which would be better n cheaper in the long run going N/A or SR20?
currently the car has headers. K&N cone air filter n exhaust. im leaning more towards the N/A since i dont have the $6K that is needed for an SR20. what what can i buy to start me off going N/A for a high end powered engine?
N/A vs SR20???
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nismofan14
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:55 am
Yes you can get an sr for 2500 but add another 3000 for parts and tuning and all the little things you will need during the swap. The KA will be cheaper than the sr since parts are available here. But eventually it all gets expensive the farter you take it. Like JDM said, it all depends on how far you wanna set your power goal.
There are lots of threads on N/A mills.
You'll honestly need to do a search and go from there. There are several schools of thought on a good N/A mill.
I like my big cam w/ big ports and 10:1Somebody else like big Compression ratio with a mild cam.
its all about money and how you can build it to your taste.
SR's make 200ish HP factory and arent tempormental and street easy. My car makes close, idles for crap and doesnt make any real power till 4grand and isnt really streetable unless the RPMs are over 2000 rpm... even then I have a stumble as my stock ECU and stock fuel system figure out what it wants to do.
The choice is yours, really. Both are going to cost you a few grand to do right.
You'll honestly need to do a search and go from there. There are several schools of thought on a good N/A mill.
I like my big cam w/ big ports and 10:1Somebody else like big Compression ratio with a mild cam.
its all about money and how you can build it to your taste.
SR's make 200ish HP factory and arent tempormental and street easy. My car makes close, idles for crap and doesnt make any real power till 4grand and isnt really streetable unless the RPMs are over 2000 rpm... even then I have a stumble as my stock ECU and stock fuel system figure out what it wants to do.
The choice is yours, really. Both are going to cost you a few grand to do right.
from a mechanical standpoint.. an engine is an engine is an engine. making power is the same for all engines. get more air and fuel in, and you make more power.
all mods "work" on all engines. bigger cams, high compression, improved port design etc etc etc.
on na cars, to raise power.. first clear up any restrictions, like intake and full exhaust. then bump compression up and run hot cams. this moves the powerband over (higher), the extent of this depends on how extreme you go with cam grinds, port work, and valves.
turbocharging is kinda like artificial displacement. you're pumping a larger volume of air in, in compressed form. the end result is you get higher power, at a lower rpm... which translates to a car being more streetable.
another thing you have to look at is your power goals... since the 240sx has a relitively large engine, low power goals are TOTALLY obtainable in NA form. if your goal was like 180 hp, id say go NA, because its not that much more hp, and the car would still be streetable... if you're looking for like 250 wheel hp, making that kinda power NA would be obsurd, and a basic pain in the *** to drive anywhere thats not a racetrack, where a 250rwhp turbo car would be relitively easy to manage around town.
in the end, it all depends on your goals, and of course.. how deep your pockets are
all mods "work" on all engines. bigger cams, high compression, improved port design etc etc etc.
on na cars, to raise power.. first clear up any restrictions, like intake and full exhaust. then bump compression up and run hot cams. this moves the powerband over (higher), the extent of this depends on how extreme you go with cam grinds, port work, and valves.
turbocharging is kinda like artificial displacement. you're pumping a larger volume of air in, in compressed form. the end result is you get higher power, at a lower rpm... which translates to a car being more streetable.
another thing you have to look at is your power goals... since the 240sx has a relitively large engine, low power goals are TOTALLY obtainable in NA form. if your goal was like 180 hp, id say go NA, because its not that much more hp, and the car would still be streetable... if you're looking for like 250 wheel hp, making that kinda power NA would be obsurd, and a basic pain in the *** to drive anywhere thats not a racetrack, where a 250rwhp turbo car would be relitively easy to manage around town.
in the end, it all depends on your goals, and of course.. how deep your pockets are
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singlecamhonduhkilla
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:13 am
- Car: learning all i can about this car.. some street racing.. etc..
I ALWAYS WONDERED THAT MYSELF.. IM SHOOTING FOR N/A.. BUT I WAS JUST CURIOUS ON JUST BOLT-ONS ALONE.. (INTAKE, HEADERS, EXHAUST, HIGH FLOW CAT, PLUGS, WIRES, CAM GEAR, PULLEYS,ETC.) HOW MUCH HP CAN U REALLY PULL?? I WOULD LIKE ENOUGH POWER TO BEAT A CIVIC WIT A SIR-II SWAP.. LIKE 200-220HP..IS THAT POSSIBLE WIT JUST BOLT ONS?? OR WOULD U NEED THE CAM WORK, PORT POLISH ETC...JOE
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MainEvent212
- Posts: 4182
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:21 pm
- Car: 95 Nissan 240SX SE w/ SR20DET+goodies
as someone else here said, and its been my moto for quite some time
is build a solid NA engine with 9:1 compression, a realitvly mild cam ( 260~ish) but with everything else being top notch, such as balanced/lightned internals, etc etc etc, then you will have a very good car thats fun to drive around and doesnt need to rev to infinity to get its power ( unlike those 270 ++ cams)
but the bonus is that your rock solid NA engine will freely accept a simple turbo bolt on, at which point all you really want to answer is how much boost you want, at 7 psi you will get all the power you will ever need for a streetable car,
and if you really want to piss off some vdubbers or b16maniacs crank it up to 20 and make sure you start in second gear. ( and remeber your rock solid NA engine can easily handle that pressure)
edit: so what i'm trying to say is that once you make it realiable on the inside, you can progresivly bolt stuff on without worrying too much.
edit2: on a side note for the sr20vska24 battle, the reason the sr is more popual for turbo, is that its smaller displacement = smaller internals = lighter internals = ability to reach higher rpm at a safer level = more "safe" power up top.
a larger engine like the ka IN THEORY is less reliable in higher rpm due to the larger momentum being swung around. And this is a turn off for some turbo freaks ( it was for me until i was properly informed)
Now the bonus for you comes in the form of a SOHC, as other members here have pointed out the SOHC is lighter and a bit more reliable due to less moving parts. A common argument is that the lack of a second cam gear limits you in your customization, but i understand you dont want an all out japan style 240 mph highway beast, so just crank that single cam down to bring down your power to lower rpm and your a happy camper. And once again with proper internal engine work, the ka24 might be even better with the increased boost pressures thanks to its simplicty.
Another argument for the SR is that i has 16 vavles vs 12, but that should not be a problem with a proper p&p job + valve job, increase the lift and some other NA tricks and you wont even notice the diffrence.
( now if the sr had 20 valves like the 1.8t vw/audi engine, then we would compare diffrently) and besides a little congestion = more torque at lower rpm, which is more benefical to a street car rather than higher breathability at higher rpm since power matters little on the highway when your doing 150 km/h and an extra 20 HP wont matter jack squat cuz your fighting all that air resistance.
ok i think thats all... stuff keeps comming to my mind
SO TO SUM IT ALL UP : GO KA's
is build a solid NA engine with 9:1 compression, a realitvly mild cam ( 260~ish) but with everything else being top notch, such as balanced/lightned internals, etc etc etc, then you will have a very good car thats fun to drive around and doesnt need to rev to infinity to get its power ( unlike those 270 ++ cams)
but the bonus is that your rock solid NA engine will freely accept a simple turbo bolt on, at which point all you really want to answer is how much boost you want, at 7 psi you will get all the power you will ever need for a streetable car,
and if you really want to piss off some vdubbers or b16maniacs crank it up to 20 and make sure you start in second gear. ( and remeber your rock solid NA engine can easily handle that pressure)
edit: so what i'm trying to say is that once you make it realiable on the inside, you can progresivly bolt stuff on without worrying too much.
edit2: on a side note for the sr20vska24 battle, the reason the sr is more popual for turbo, is that its smaller displacement = smaller internals = lighter internals = ability to reach higher rpm at a safer level = more "safe" power up top.
a larger engine like the ka IN THEORY is less reliable in higher rpm due to the larger momentum being swung around. And this is a turn off for some turbo freaks ( it was for me until i was properly informed)
Now the bonus for you comes in the form of a SOHC, as other members here have pointed out the SOHC is lighter and a bit more reliable due to less moving parts. A common argument is that the lack of a second cam gear limits you in your customization, but i understand you dont want an all out japan style 240 mph highway beast, so just crank that single cam down to bring down your power to lower rpm and your a happy camper. And once again with proper internal engine work, the ka24 might be even better with the increased boost pressures thanks to its simplicty.
Another argument for the SR is that i has 16 vavles vs 12, but that should not be a problem with a proper p&p job + valve job, increase the lift and some other NA tricks and you wont even notice the diffrence.
( now if the sr had 20 valves like the 1.8t vw/audi engine, then we would compare diffrently) and besides a little congestion = more torque at lower rpm, which is more benefical to a street car rather than higher breathability at higher rpm since power matters little on the highway when your doing 150 km/h and an extra 20 HP wont matter jack squat cuz your fighting all that air resistance.
ok i think thats all... stuff keeps comming to my mind
SO TO SUM IT ALL UP : GO KA's
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plastik240se
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:32 am
- Car: 96 240sx se
Well how do you go about making a rock hard KA iv tryed looking for aftermarket parts and what not. Its far and few inbetween finding good parts for it. anybody know where these good parts may be? i find somthin that i might want,and it turns out to be somthign for the SR. on that note the 24E and 24DE in my mind are the same engine, so does that mean i can take parts from the E and maybe graft/bolt/watever on to the DE? also why does the turbo kit for the ka have to be like $5000, seems kinda stupid to me if you can get a SR for like $3000 and thats with turbo. (shrug) probly going to be mocked for that one but thats what learning is for i guess.:help
look harderplastik240se wrote:how do you go about making a rock hard KA iv tryed looking for aftermarket parts and what not.
the parts are definately out there. search for parts for the ka24 motor, obviously . a quick google search turned up tons of items.Quote » on that note the 24E and 24DE in my mind are the same engine,[/quote] they're not. the heads are totally different.Quote » so does that mean i can take parts from the E and maybe graft/bolt/watever on to the DE?[/quote] no, just buy parts specifically for the DE. you could halfass some honda parts to work if you really wanted to.. but why? theres plenty of parts for your motor.Quote » why does the turbo kit for the ka have to be like $5000[/quote] they're alot cheaper... more like 3K... or you can make your own for under 1K.you cant compare a NA engine to a turbo engine, especially when the displacements are relitively close. both engines will be totally different. a SR20det will definately be more streetable.
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plastik240se
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:32 am
- Car: 96 240sx se
[quote=" TomsMR2 they're alot cheaper... more like 3K... or you can make your own for under 1K.
you cant compare a NA engine to a turbo engine, especially when the displacements are relitively close. both engines will be totally different. a SR20det will definately be more streetable. [/quote]
under 1k ooooooh me like the sound of that, inever been good with matching up what has to go where and deffinetly havent the slightest idea what all i whould need to make my own.
Last when you say the sr is more streetable do you mean you would take a sr20det over a ka24det if you were just to be only street use. closest thing to a track that i can get on around here is the autobaunThank you tom:ylsuper
you cant compare a NA engine to a turbo engine, especially when the displacements are relitively close. both engines will be totally different. a SR20det will definately be more streetable. [/quote]
under 1k ooooooh me like the sound of that, inever been good with matching up what has to go where and deffinetly havent the slightest idea what all i whould need to make my own.
Last when you say the sr is more streetable do you mean you would take a sr20det over a ka24det if you were just to be only street use. closest thing to a track that i can get on around here is the autobaunThank you tom:ylsuper
1k turbos = junk yard turbos
you go and fine a turbo from another car at a junk yard, weld your own headers and manifolds and get cheap blow off valves either off of other cars or no name brand comanies
( honestly do u need a BOV thats a shiny purple colour with gold rings? come on!)
or you can have everything premade and dish out the money for it, depends what tickless your pickle.
and by more streetable they mean that if your not racing ( ie 4000-5000 rpm, super stiff suspension, loose headlights for greater breathability, etc etc) then you still retain that performance edge when you want to fly by some civics.
or so they say.... we can all talk trash, but we need to have a fully modded sr go vs a fully modded ka, with full documentation and track data ( 1/4 mile, stop times, autox and a 2 hour race around a twisty track)
then we will really know.
also you hear people talk about bolt on this bolt on that, and yoou hear some guys tell you out of the window of his honda " dude i make 300 horsepower at the wheels and gives you a big smile") but what he doesnt realize is that he wont last 5 minuets on the track because his "custom" built bolt ons will bolt off even faster than they came on and he will end up being intimate with the concrete wall.
you go and fine a turbo from another car at a junk yard, weld your own headers and manifolds and get cheap blow off valves either off of other cars or no name brand comanies
( honestly do u need a BOV thats a shiny purple colour with gold rings? come on!)
or you can have everything premade and dish out the money for it, depends what tickless your pickle.
and by more streetable they mean that if your not racing ( ie 4000-5000 rpm, super stiff suspension, loose headlights for greater breathability, etc etc) then you still retain that performance edge when you want to fly by some civics.
or so they say.... we can all talk trash, but we need to have a fully modded sr go vs a fully modded ka, with full documentation and track data ( 1/4 mile, stop times, autox and a 2 hour race around a twisty track)
then we will really know.
also you hear people talk about bolt on this bolt on that, and yoou hear some guys tell you out of the window of his honda " dude i make 300 horsepower at the wheels and gives you a big smile") but what he doesnt realize is that he wont last 5 minuets on the track because his "custom" built bolt ons will bolt off even faster than they came on and he will end up being intimate with the concrete wall.
its not ghetto.. its custom :lol:Quote » or so they say.... we can all talk trash, but we need to have a fully modded sr go vs a fully modded ka, with full documentation and track data ( 1/4 mile, stop times, autox and a 2 hour race around a twisty track)[/quote] the fully modded SR would spank the KA so hard it would be obsurd. the SR would win at everything. its really no contest, as you can pull sooooo much more HP out of a SR..7thGear wrote:1k turbos = junk yard turbos
well.. unless you turbo'd the KA.. then my vote goes to the KA.Quote » but what he doesnt realize is that he wont last 5 minuets on the track because his "custom" built bolt ons will bolt off even faster than they came on and he will end up being intimate with the concrete wall. [/quote]
if you have any idea what you're doing, custom mods will last... many times they will last longer and perform better.
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nlzmo400r
- Posts: 4904
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:23 pm
- Car: '02 Nissan Altima QR25DE
'93 Nissan 240SX hatch KA24DE
if you're shooting for 18ohp ish, its easily attainable using the KA, however u do have 194k on your engine, thats quite a bit of miles, so personaly, you mite want to go find a newer KA (just the motor) and build her up to your likings, and then drop her into your 24o, a new KA will cost you around $6oo or so (with 4ok miles or so)
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plastik240se
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:32 am
- Car: 96 240sx se
i think that a KA-t is going to be in my car some day, im not sure i want a SR, plus i would think parts would cost more then the everyday KA. are the conversion gains really that much more? but i think i branched off from the topic. i think the n/a SR and the n/a KA i think the SR would take it. a friend here has a n/a SR and then my KA and i think he would have had me if that car wasnt coming 
going turbo otherwise still dont know there. just alil tid bit from a newbie.
going turbo otherwise still dont know there. just alil tid bit from a newbie.-
nlzmo400r
- Posts: 4904
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:23 pm
- Car: '02 Nissan Altima QR25DE
'93 Nissan 240SX hatch KA24DE
he's talking about getting a turbo'd sr (jdm) or going n/a with his KA, and like i said, all depends on goals, and parts too, if this is your only car, dont go with hte sr, as soon as something breaks, wait for it to be about a month before you can even try fixing it, unless you know a local store that has sr2odet parts, and with the KA you still get a great powerband, thats a plus, so just depends on what you want
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nlzmo400r
- Posts: 4904
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:23 pm
- Car: '02 Nissan Altima QR25DE
'93 Nissan 240SX hatch KA24DE
o wow, ok, first off, the sr is a turbo motor, the ka is naturally aspirated, displacement isnt everything, my dad has a 4.6 liter v8 that puts out a whopping 215hp and 215ft lbs of tq, while a 3.5 liter vq35de motor puts out 287hp and 285 ft lbs of torque, some one set this guy straight, i dont have all the time to explain, OOO, sorry i misread your post, my apologies, but again, he's talking about either getting a sr2odet or making N/A power out of his KA
THIS POST IS FOR TOMS MR2,
im not getting in on the argument here, i simply want to ask you if finding a turbo off a wrecked z, vw, anything turbo really, could be custom piped and made to put on my ka? and something ive always wondered, if i ad on a turbo, do i have to have a intercooler to run about 8psi, or does it just help?
im not getting in on the argument here, i simply want to ask you if finding a turbo off a wrecked z, vw, anything turbo really, could be custom piped and made to put on my ka? and something ive always wondered, if i ad on a turbo, do i have to have a intercooler to run about 8psi, or does it just help?
^ that would be correct . do NOT use a VW/audi turbo, they size their turbos small as hell, it would fail on a 2.4L motor. you want to be looking for at least a T3.. thing is, theres quite a few "trims" of T3 turbos, you want to find the biggest one possible. ive got a feeling that some ford probe turbos would work... or chrysler turbos.. but i dont know their sizes offhand.
the MOST important thing when buying a junk yard turbo, is finding one of the correct size.. it should be cleaned up/possibly rebuild before used as well.
you NEED an intercooler. it helps your engine stay in one piece. i think people are retards for running even 5psi unintercooled. its just a bad idea, unless you only drive in the snow or something crazy.
bolting the turbo and associated pipes onto your KA is the easy part. you have to address fuel and timing as well. read up about it before you attempt... theres a few quite helpful threads around
. do NOT use a VW/audi turbo, they size their turbos small as hell, it would fail on a 2.4L motor. you want to be looking for at least a T3.. thing is, theres quite a few "trims" of T3 turbos, you want to find the biggest one possible. ive got a feeling that some ford probe turbos would work... or chrysler turbos.. but i dont know their sizes offhand.the MOST important thing when buying a junk yard turbo, is finding one of the correct size.. it should be cleaned up/possibly rebuild before used as well.
you NEED an intercooler. it helps your engine stay in one piece. i think people are retards for running even 5psi unintercooled. its just a bad idea, unless you only drive in the snow or something crazy.
bolting the turbo and associated pipes onto your KA is the easy part. you have to address fuel and timing as well. read up about it before you attempt... theres a few quite helpful threads around
thanks man, i was curious, but i think i have alot more issues to deal with before that, eg. oil leak and timing chain, but one day im going to go there. Saturday, i think im going down the muffler shop, they said they would run a 2 1/4 in. pipe from the cat. conv. with a flowmaster (which i listened to on their website) for under $200, how does that sound, and will it be the same as ordering for example an apexi or 5zigen?
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Evil98Silvia
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 1:16 am
- Contact:
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nlzmo400r
- Posts: 4904
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:23 pm
- Car: '02 Nissan Altima QR25DE
'93 Nissan 240SX hatch KA24DE
very true, actually even the lotus esprit (twin turbo v8) doesnt use BIG turbo's , but hey, the new lancer evo's use a 16G turbo, thats damn near as big as they come, but in aftermarket, it depends on what you're loking for, a turbo such as a t88 takes a long time to spool up, but makes amazing top end power, but turbo's such as the t28 has a lot quicker spool uop, but not anywhere near as much top end powerTomsMR2 wrote:when talking about OEM turbos, yes, biggest is best.. theres really no *huge* OEM turbos (4cyl, of course). once you get into aftermarket, then you really have to pay attention to sizing.
once again turbo selection has alot to do with where you want your power.
I was reading up on a 1200 hp street supra... then i looked at their dyno ( which for some reason was speed vs hp rather than rpm ... but anyway)
the point that was clearly evident is that the car had 250 hp all the way to 90 miles an hour.... which is what most well tuned cars had, then from 90 to 200 mph it sky rocketed to 1200 hp!!!
but how often do u get into 100 mph zone in a daily driver, unless its a pure drag car, large turbos are an illusion of power, since its only made at top rpm and top speeds.
I was reading up on a 1200 hp street supra... then i looked at their dyno ( which for some reason was speed vs hp rather than rpm ... but anyway)
the point that was clearly evident is that the car had 250 hp all the way to 90 miles an hour.... which is what most well tuned cars had, then from 90 to 200 mph it sky rocketed to 1200 hp!!!
but how often do u get into 100 mph zone in a daily driver, unless its a pure drag car, large turbos are an illusion of power, since its only made at top rpm and top speeds.