Mosque Funding

[stebo0728]

Ok new twist on this mosque thingie ...

Its been purported that the funding for this project may be, to whatever degree, funded by organizations known to support terrorlst. Whether this is true or not I dont know, its just been suggested. Whether you agree that this should be investigated or not, Im not sure myself, but ... if any investigation of funding should occur shouldnt this be it? But what does the Wicked Congresswomen From the West suggest today? Investigation into the funding of the mosque opposition? Thats doesnt seem to make alot of sense to me.

[Cold_Zero]

Quick question. If I want to build a church in downtown Indianapolis, should my funding sources be investigated?
Here are the problems that I see with this issue:
1. From what I understand they have not done fund raising.
2. A lot of the funding concerns are based off of the Imam's failure to call Hezbollah a terror group and a few comments about America's culpability to 9-11. And not based off of any real credible evidence that money laundering has been done by terror groups.
3. You start to go down this road with one group, and then it will have to be applied to all groups.

[AppleBonker]

Well, I'm not surprised that this would be reported. To the average citizen, muslim = terrorlst, so it would stand to reason that anyone paying for a mosque would have terrorlst ties. Even if they do, I say go for it. If your organization has terrorlst ties, but you want to spend money on something legitimate, I'm all for it. Less money going to the terrorists. Just my very simple opinion, however.

[wingFeather]

funded by organizations known to support terrorlst

Big surprise there...

[stebo0728]

Ya I agree with you about do it now, and itll set a precedence for the same in the future. Im not necessarily advocating investigation of the funding, but the rub is that Mrs Pelosi now thinks it reasonable to investigate the OPPOSITION's funding.

And apple your right, most people do think muslim = terrorlst. Lets remember just because all terrorists are muslim doesnt mean all muslims are terrorists

[stebo0728]

funded by organizations known to support terrorlst

Big surprise there...

Please note ... this is an accusation being made toward the funding, not an actual credible charge yet.

[vikesfankevin1986]

I would rather the idiots spend money building a Mosque than on training and weapons...build 50 of the things...less guns for them...

[wingFeather]

I would rather the idiots spend money building a Mosque than on training and weapons...build 50 of the things...less guns for them...

More recruitment centers = more terrorists.

[vikesfankevin1986]

I would rather the idiots spend money building a Mosque than on training and weapons...build 50 of the things...less guns for them...

More recruitment centers = more terrorists.

You guys spend so much time convincing people that not all muslims are terrorlst...so what makes you think this is a recruiting center? Maybe it's a...Mosque...you know, where Muslims worship God. I don't think Churches recruit for anything other than being Christian.

[AppleBonker]

funded by organizations known to support terrorlst

Big surprise there...

I get it. You hate Obama. And Muslims. And probably everyone who isn't white and Christian. Please add some substance to these posts.

I would rather the idiots spend money building a Mosque than on training and weapons...build 50 of the things...less guns for them...

More recruitment centers = more terrorists.

Meh, every other religion has their centers for brainwashing, why should this be any different?

[Cold_Zero]

Let me say this clearly.
It is not the Mosques that necessarily train terrorists here in the United States, it is the Madrasahs that indoctrinate and train young Muslim men to war against the west and Israel. And this typically happens not in Dearborn or Brooklyn but in Western Africa (Horn) and the Middle East. Why is it, that only a handful of Americans leave the country to go fight for groups like Al Qaeda/ Al Shabaab and not the masses? Could it be because our mosques are not radicalized?

[IBCoupe]

So it looks like Stebo intended it to be a different conversation than what it actually turned into, and I'd like to address what Stebo had actually said.

Congresswoman Pelosi has called for an investigation into the funding of the opposition to the mosque, probably because she suspects it's an "astroturf" thing. It seems like it'd be a difficult thing to investigate, and I'm not sure that I want the government scaring away protesters.

That said, I also don't like hearing last week that some House Republicans are continuing (the first news I saw of it was back in October) to call for the investigation of Muslim interns in Washington D.C. for terrorlst ties.

If this were a thing of tit-for-tat (which it most certainly is not; both things are not right), I'd say that Nancy Pelosi's calls for government investigation on the basis of individual action for the purpose of scoring political points is less nefarious than government investigation on the basis of individual religion for the purpose of accusing individuals of treason.

EDIT: So what I'm saying, in short, is that Nancy Pelosi said something stupid, but right now that's not what scares me.

[stebo0728]

Nancy Pelosi said something stupid

Once again, isnt that par for the course?

[Cold_Zero]

We could do what the IRS does. So Congresswoman Nazi Pelosi wants the opposition to this Mosque to be investigated? Maybe SHE needs to be investigated herself. I thought that dissent was the highest form of patriotism? Or is it unless it infringes on one of her voter blocks?

Can we say this together? Jack booted thug-ery.

[IBCoupe]

Just about.

I don't usually concern myself with what individual politicians do or say until it becomes something adopted by a larger group of people. For example, much of what President Bush said or did, no matter how foolish it might have sounded, didn't bother me because it wasn't something widespread. Similarly so with Nancy Pelosi; you don't see many people echoing her calls for investigations - maybe her concerns about astroturfing, but not what she's demanded.

But then there are a few politicians who really get their messages dispersed throughout the populace. I voiced my skepticism (not here; I wasn't posting in this forum at the time) when then-Candidate Obama's promises of "change" were echo'd throughout the land. "You can't all be right about what's going to happen differently." I voiced my concern when Sarah Palin's "real America" got some reverberation through my workplace.

Granted, I don't live in San Fransisco; I don't know if Pelosi's comments have an effect there, but I don't run into it out here.

[Cold_Zero]

Well, I suspect that they suspect that this is call coming from bloggers or talk radio hosts. Even if this is true, it is still not illegal to oppose something in this country. I also suspect a little bit of what is going on here is the liberal mentality that if you criticize or oppose a minority group, you are a 'racist.' And naturally a hate crime must have occurred and needs to be investigated.

[vikesfankevin1986]

From wikipedia...
McCarthyism is the political action of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence. The term specifically describes activities associated with the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s and characterized by heightened fears of communist influence on American institutions and espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.

That's what I think of when I hear this...
Christianity is not our national religion. We can't accuse every Muslim thing is this country of being terrorlst related. Either make Christianity the official religion or bud out of other peoples. We are talking about a damn Mosque, not the new international terrorlst training and recruiting headquaters of the world.

[Cold_Zero]

This country doesnt have a National Religion, though I think that I could make a case that we follow a secular civil religion in this country, that people confuse for Christianity. It is def not orthodox Christianity (that is another conversation and against the rules here).

What this country does have is a rich Judeo Christian heritage:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind of self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." -James Madison

The Declaration of Independence cites 27 Biblical violations against the King of England.

52 of the 55 signers of the US Constitution were active members in their churches.

I could go on and on about this subject and a few years ago I had a post here that listed out more examples because it was the topic of discussion. My point it simple, it is foolish to think that the history of this country, the Revolutionary era through that of the 1900’s occurred in a religious vacuum.

[stebo0728]

This country doesnt have a National Religion, though I think that I could make a case that we follow a secular civil religion in this country, that people confuse for Christianity. It is def not orthodox Christianity (that is another conversation and against the rules here).

What this country does have is a rich Judeo Christian heritage:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind of self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." -James Madison

The Declaration of Independence cites 27 Biblical violations against the King of England.

52 of the 55 signers of the US Constitution were active members in their churches.

I could go on and on about this subject. My point it simple, it is foolish to think that the history of this country, the Revolutionary era through that of the 1900’s occurred in a religious vacuum.

Completely agreed ... this is why I in so many instances default to what our founding fathers laid out, not what the current state of affairs offers. I believe the founding of this nation to have been a blessed one, but Cold I think you and I are sortof probably in the same church pew, or nearly, and we both have to realize that the event we are seeing today or expected, and were even prophecied about. In political affairs today, my main goal is to try and minimize any collateral damage to liberty and private property, private sector principles. As I have said repeatedly, circumstances may be different from the days of our fore-fathers, but the concepts they gave their life to protect HAVE NOT changed, they are simply being ignored, to the possible future detriment of this nation.

[wingFeather]

And probably everyone who isn't white and Christian.

Incorrect by a mile.

Meh, every other religion has their centers for brainwashing, why should this be any different?

When was the last time Mormons killed thousands of New Yorkers?

[vikesfankevin1986]

I just don't get this stuff. Our country was clearly founded based on christian principles. How is this not a Christian nation? Because we tolerate other religions? It's like they formed this country based on Christian values but then threw in the clause about how we will be accepting and everything. The problem is, we are not accepting. People are not accepting Muslims in America. Christians and Jews used to live in peace in Muslim nations. That doesn't make those Muslim nations not Muslim.
Stop fooling yourself America...This is and always has been a "Christian" nation. Just accept it and make it official. (Once again I am Agnostic, so I really don't want it to be. I just want people to stop pretending.)

[vikesfankevin1986]

From wakopedia...
McCarthyism is the political action of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence. The term specifically describes activities associated with the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s and characterized by heightened fears of communist influence on American institutions and espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.

That's what I think of when I hear this...
Christianity is not our national religion. We can't accuse every Muslim thing is this country of being terrorlst related. Either make Christianity the official religion or bud out of other peoples. We are talking about a damn Mosque, not the new international terrorlst training and recruiting headquaters of the world.

Why does it say wacopedia? I didn't type it like that and when I went to edit it, it was spelled correctly...

[Cold_Zero]

The whole wackopedia is done in the code for the forum, I suspect since Wiki doesnt play nicely with NICO and it is payback.

[stebo0728]

I just don't get this stuff. Our country was clearly founded based on christian principles. How is this not a Christian nation? Because we tolerate other religions? It's like they formed this country based on Christian values but then threw in the clause about how we will be accepting and everything. The problem is, we are not accepting. People are not accepting Muslims in America. Christians and Jews used to live in peace in Muslim nations. That doesn't make those Muslim nations not Muslim.
Stop fooling yourself America...This is and always has been a "Christian" nation. Just accept it and make it official. (Once again I am Agnostic, so I really don't want it to be. I just want people to stop pretending.)

You are right, people are far less accepting of Islam, for varying reasons, some of which may be good reasons, or perhaps all are bad reasons, thats more of a personal issue, but I think for Americans a large part of it is because yes America is predominantly either Christian, Catholic, or Jewish, and in being so, they hold a LARGE biblically driven support for Israel. A support that sometimes overlooks inhuman things done by Israel, admittedly, but this unwaivering support makes it more difficult to be as tolerant toward Islam because Islam at its fundamental roots has always been at odds with Israel. Heck Americans are more tolerant of agnostics (some of who openly strongly ridicule their God on a daily basis) than they are of the peaceful sector of Islam that largely resides ONLY in America.

[Cold_Zero]

When was the last time Mormons killed thousands of New Yorkers?

They have their own checkered past of killing pioneers.

[vikesfankevin1986]

And probably everyone who isn't white and Christian.

Incorrect by a mile.

Meh, every other religion has their centers for brainwashing, why should this be any different?

When was the last time Mormons killed thousands of New Yorkers?

Have you ever been to another country? Did you know Hitler killed millions of jews? Did you know Pol Pot killed millions? Did you know Christians killed Muslims in the Crusades?
Did you know Americans killed Americans in the Civil War?
If all Muslims are terrorlst why did Americans die to free and save the lives of millions of Muslims. Don't know what I'm talking about? See we had this little thing called Operation Iraq Freedom (I know because I participated in it.) If you didn't know, Iraqis are Muslim. So the United States freed a bunch of terrorlst? I think it more has to do with America free a bunch of good, innocent people, that happened to be Muslim, not terrorlst. See what an open mind and logic can do for you?

[vikesfankevin1986]

You are right, people are far less accepting of Islam, for varying reasons, some of which may be good reasons, or perhaps all are bad reasons, thats more of a personal issue, but I think for Americans a large part of it is because yes America is predominantly either Christian, Catholic, or Jewish, and in being so, they hold a LARGE biblically driven support for Israel. A support that sometimes overlooks inhuman things done by Israel, admittedly, but this unwaivering support makes it more difficult to be as tolerant toward Islam because Islam at its fundamental roots has always been at odds with Israel. Heck Americans are more tolerant of agnostics (some of who openly strongly ridicule their God on a daily basis) than they are of the peaceful sector of Islam that largely resides ONLY in America.

I think we are more accepting of Agnostics because we allow our entertainment business totally ignore Christian values, or any other values. And I hope they are more tolerant of Agnostics because most do not strongly ridicule God. Atheist are real good for that but the term Agnostic means you don't know if there is a God. You can't really bash something you don't know the answer to...unless you are an idiot of course.

[stebo0728]

If all Muslims are terrorlst why did Americans die to free and save the lives of millions of Muslims. Don't know what I'm talking about? See we had this little thing called Operation Iraq Freedom (I know because I participated in it.) If you didn't know, Iraqis are Muslim. So the United States freed a bunch of terrorlst? I think it more has to do with America free a bunch of good, innocent people, that happened to be Muslim, not terrorlst. See what an open mind and logic can do for you?

Wait wait I have to call you out on this one. Just because someone makes a claim that all terrorists are muslim (and except for only a very small handful of irish examples this is a true claim) that does not mean that they are claiming that all muslims are terrorists. That is a gross logically fallacy. Thats like saying that all oranges are a fruit therefore all fruits are an orange, it doesnt work.

[stebo0728]

Atheists

LOL - theres no such thing as an atheist. Its not possible, a belief in nothing is still a belief, and atheism mean "no belief". Cant be human and not have SOME kind of belief.

Semantics? Sure probably.

[vikesfankevin1986]

Wait wait I have to call you out on this one. Just because someone makes a claim that all terrorists are muslim (and except for only a very small handful of irish examples this is a true claim) that does not mean that they are claiming that all muslims are terrorists. That is a gross logically fallacy. Thats like saying that all oranges are a fruit therefore all fruits are an orange, it doesnt work.

I know this. I am just getting sick of wingFeathers ignorant coments. It appears he believes all Muslims are terrorlst.