More Biden Buffoonery

[AZhitman]

So, my original post is lacking merit and truth? Are you saying I made it up? How about responding to the topic of the thread, Mr. Kettle.

Speaking of not addressing the issue, welcome to this thread. Feel free to read the original post, and substitute an unnamed GOP'er for Sleepy Joe. Then feel free to defend the ignorant and insensitive statement.

EDIT: Good op-ed piece on this very issue. http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/07/a ... index.html Don't get pissed at me for asking leaders of a civilized nation to have some semblance of civility.

[stebo0728]

#1. Most people have paid into the system for most of their adult life. When the government collected the money, they made promises. Now, when it's time to collect the government needs to be accountable. Wasn't GWB the last president fo borrow from the SS account to pay for another of his blunders?

#2. In my perfect libby world, everyone gets health care. You pay what you can afford, but no one is turned away.

#3. It's called a cooperative. Do away with tenure and make the teachers accountable. If kids don't take to reading and writing, send them to a trade school.

#4. College needs to be affordable to those who can be successful. Even if the public funded the education. Follow by some form of public service for 2 to 3 years, and call it even.

#5. Defensive military. Toss a rock at an American interest, we respond with a B-52. Quit WMD hunts that ring of McCarthy looking for communists.

#8 Directed at that AZ dude. His comments to Helio makes me wonder some times.

#9. Yeah, Honesty. We give those who aren't the Nixon treatment.

1. Backing up our promises on Social Security for those who've paid in, great, I agree. Continuing the broken, untrustable system for todays working generation? No I dont see that as tenable. That does present a problem, as we've turned Social Security into a system of one group of people dependant on another: elderly retired folks dependant on the younger working folks. How do we fix it? Good question, and one that needs to be tread quite lightly. I dont claim to have the answer either, all I can tell you is I have ZERO faith in Social Security for my glory years, and I dont like the idea of having to pour my cash into a system that will devour it and ask for more. What it boils down to is, upon the inception of SS, we broke from our roots of personal responsibility, and embraced government dependence. That needs to be reversed. I understand it won't happen overnight, but it should be the goal.

2. Your argument will work better when droids attend to our healthcare, freeing doctors up for better things like bantha scrubbing. What you fail to see is that health care is a resource that is dependant on both the physical and intellectual capital of another. Can you really claim a right to someone else's time, knowledge, and ability? You are of course welcome to try, but dont be surprised when more and more of the "able" begin to suddenly become "inable" due to retirement, career change, or the like, to escape a new version of undue servitude.

3. To be honest, I like what you have there. The only thing I would add, is a notion of school choice. We are one of the only few nations that require a child to follow his education funding, rather than the more logical form, allowing educational funding to follow the child. One thing that would drastically improve education is competition. Allow parents to choose where their children are educated, including private institutes. Sure it may cost more than the public, and the parents would have to catch the difference, but then, dont be surprised if you start to see private institutions offering new programs that come in near if not exactly at the targeted "per student" public education amount.

4. Im a firm believer that increasing the availability of college education REDUCES the quality of the education attained. Make folks work for it. I agree that everyone should have a chance. But how much coddling is enough?

5. I dont have a problem with WMD searches, as long as we act on credibly information, and produce results. Sometimes a good offense can be a good defense. If you always wait for war to come to your shores, you'll always have war on your shores. You cant be as big as we are and just try to swat the flies that buzz around your head. You sorta need to put out some fly traps too.

9. Dont get me wrong, I too would love honesty in DC. At the same time I dont expect to get it, therefore you learn to work with what you have, not what you wish you had. That doesnt mean we can strive for what we wish, and we should press for it, but until we get there, we have to work with what we've got. I mean, what happened to the transparency we were promised from this administration. He was so opaque he didnt even hint toward what he'd do to solve this debt problem. Instead he hosted closed door witch hunts with party leaders. Why not televise them? Make them front and center, and if the congressional bimbos were being douches, it would have been for all to see.

[R/T Hemi]

We could go on Stebo, but I'm afraid we'll end up patting each other on the back and agreeing with a few small compromises. If only congress could understand this process.

@ Greg. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input, and I reread your OP. However, my problem came int he first sentence....
When will someone, anyone, hold this cretin accountable for his idiotic statements and ignorant, classless behavior?
It sounded more like a kid throwing a tantrum because he didn't get a bathroom pass and had to wait for the bell. When an OP contains such a great rant, it's easy to forgive it's lack of merit.

I challenged your " and countless other pinhead gaffes...." by asking for some real examples and you responded with..."Defend the moron at all costs, eh?


See why I called you for drive-by posting? Not that I don't enjoy it, but seriously, your posts need a little meat with their cheese dude.

[telcoman]

We could go on Stebo, but I'm afraid we'll end up patting each other on the back and agreeing with a few small compromises. If only congress could understand this process.

@ Greg. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your input, and I reread your OP. However, my problem came int he first sentence....
When will someone, anyone, hold this cretin accountable for his idiotic statements and ignorant, classless behavior?
It sounded more like a kid throwing a tantrum because he didn't get a bathroom pass and had to wait for the bell. When an OP contains such a great rant, it's easy to forgive it's lack of merit.

I challenged your " and countless other pinhead gaffes...." by asking for some real examples and you responded with..."Defend the moron at all costs, eh?


See why I called you for drive-by posting? Not that I don't enjoy it, but seriously, your posts need a little meat with their cheese dude.

Greg has been doing this for a long time. He likes name calling others who disagree with his weird ways.
I think he is still upset over the 2008 presidential election?
VP Biden has a lot more smarts than the inexperienced kids in the tea party attempting to ruin this country.
Anyone who supports Palin and Bachman has got a serious problem for not recognizing the wack jobs that they are.

There are a few around here that believe what they see and hear on Fox and it has them warped.
Having a president trying to fix the previous administrations screw ups is a very difficult job. The tea party and Grover Norquist are mainly the cause of our present financial problems.

Any high school student could realize that increased revenue is needed to begin to balance our budget. The stupidity of people on the right like Michelle Bachman that would rather see a US default than increase income to the treasury to keep our AAA credit rating are in my opinion the problem. That along with those that would rather see Obama a one term president than fix problems and represent what is best for our nation are why we are where we are at today.

Interesting that yields on treasury bonds are falling due to increased demand today as the stock market continues to head south since Obama's 4 trillion cuts in spending and increased revenue was rejected by the right.

Telcoman

[AZhitman]

Apparently my "weird ways" are R/T's "weird ways", too, since I happen to agree with most of his little 10-step plan above.

You keep trying to paint me as some wack-job right-winger, when the evidence is clear and convincingly in opposition to your failed assessment. Just because I think the current Administration sucks doesn't automatically make me GOP material (except in your narrow black-and-white worldview).

But that's ok, Howie - You keep blaming the TP'ers for a problem that they had no real hand in if it makes you feel better. If BO had been a leader, instead of trying to pass his silly pet projects, we might have some consensus.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/08/z ... ?hpt=hp_t1

I hope Michelle gives him his spine back after he's out of office.

[telcoman]

Apparently my "weird ways" are R/T's "weird ways", too, since I happen to agree with most of his little 10-step plan above.

You keep trying to paint me as some wack-job right-winger, when the evidence is clear and convincingly in opposition to your failed assessment. Just because I think the current Administration sucks doesn't automatically make me GOP material (except in your narrow black-and-white worldview).

But that's ok, Howie - You keep blaming the TP'ers for a problem that they had no real hand in if it makes you feel better. If BO had been a leader, instead of trying to pass his silly pet projects, we might have some consensus.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/08/z ... ?hpt=hp_t1

I hope Michelle gives him his spine back after he's out of office.

For you

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/opini ... yt&emc=rss

[AZhitman]

The tea party and Grover Norquist are mainly the cause of our present financial problems.

It was not the Tea Party fringe of the Republican Party that dragged the economy to the brink — it was its center.

Thank you for posting an opinion piece that completely contradicts your earlier statement.

It's one thing to have an opinion that others disagree with - it's quite another to not know what the hell you believe.

I respect the former - I have nothing but disdain for the latter.

Back to the rocking chair with you.

[AZhitman]

p.s. It's time for John Heinz-Kerry to start paying his fair share.

Hit him up, Howie - he'll listen to you.

[stebo0728]

There are a few around here that believe what they see and hear on MSNBC and it has them warped.

Having a president trying to fix the previous administrations screw ups is a very difficult job. The tea party and Grover Norquist are mainly the cause of our present financial problems.

Guess thats why the new administration towed basically the same line as the last? Say what? Hard to fix a perceived problem when you dont change anything, and just do more of the same.

Any high school student could realize that increased revenue is needed to begin to balance our budget.

Ya because highschool kids have all the answers right? Or at least they think they do. Why you lefties cant grasp the fact that we are trying to pay for more than our nation can afford baffles me. You demonize and isolate the wealthy, AKA the achievers, AKA the employers of this nation, and demand they pay even more than what any rational person would see as more than their fair share that they are already paying. But wait, you want more revenue. Go ahead and raise taxes and see where your revenue stands then. Go ahead and ignore the figures that very plainly show, that even if you taxed 100% of any income over 250k you wouldnt even get a trillion out of it, yet you still want to spend hand over fist on social programs that arent even the proper job of the government to handle.

Interesting that yields on treasury bonds are falling due to increased demand today as the stock market continues to head south since Obama's 4 trillion cuts in spending and increased revenue was rejected by the right.

WHERE was that plan? I never saw anything presented by either side that would cut more than 1.5 trillion, with the exception of CCB, which passed the house, and the repubes lacked the balls to push. And to boot, all these plans were PROPOSED cuts, cuts that you and I both know will never take place. Instead of kicking the can down the road again, they picked it up and threw it this time.

[R/T Hemi]

Any high school student could realize that increased revenue is needed to begin to balance our budget. The stupidity of people on the right like Michelle Bachman that would rather see a US default than increase income to the treasury to keep our AAA credit rating are in my opinion the problem. That along with those that would rather see Obama a one term president than fix problems and represent what is best for our nation are why we are where we are at today.


Telcoman

That's exactly what's behind the latest mess congress gave us. Republicans who believe that increasing revenue isn't game. How far will the mindless bots go in defending their owner's pocketbooks at the expense of the American public. Cuts are fine, there's probably much that can be cut, but dammit, there has to be some increases in revenues. Telco is right, a high school student should have a grasp of the math involved in this. The American public isn't missing this. Telco demonstrates why blue state people passed the national exam in 2008. They get it!

[R/T Hemi]

Apparently my "weird ways" are R/T's "weird ways", too, since I happen to agree with most of his little 10-step plan above.

You keep trying to paint me as some wack-job right-winger, when the evidence is clear and convincingly in opposition to your failed assessment. Just because I think the current Administration sucks doesn't automatically make me GOP material (except in your narrow black-and-white worldview).

But that's ok, Howie - You keep blaming the TP'ers for a problem that they had no real hand in if it makes you feel better. If BO had been a leader, instead of trying to pass his silly pet projects, we might have some consensus.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/08/z ... ?hpt=hp_t1

I hope Michelle gives him his spine back after he's out of office.

Geezs Greg. What's the point with that cite. They poor guy is just now understanding what the American public is screaming about?

Yes, the deficit has becoming a problem that the American people want addressed. Try as you might, where the publicans are failing is in allowing that revenues need to be raised. How, let's start with those Bush era tax cuts. Wait, there's a problem with that....someone still believes that's the shot in the arm the economy needs. Never mind the opposite has happened since GW got that brilliant idea into the tax code.

Do you really expect a president to solve problems when he has a congress divided by a bunch or kids pitching a tantrum and refusing to compromise? Even the S&P clowns have blamed the publicans for the precipitating the recent credit rating downgrade with their stubborn refusal to address the cures to the situation.

Pointing fingers is fine. But in reality, 70% of them need to be pointed towards the publicans this time because they are, at least, 70% of the problem.

[stebo0728]

You seem to perceive humans as mindless drones, that will continue their actions as is regardless of the details in their life. This is so out of touch with reality its not even funny. Humans are by nature, reactionary. If you change their surroundings, they change their behavior to suit. Add to this the fact that humans are also pirates by nature, try to get anything you can for free, and hide what you have from everyone else, this leads you to the understanding that hiking taxes, especially hiking already grossly outproportioned taxes, only leads to actions that actually lead to reduces revenue. But again, you go ahead and give it a go and see where it takes you.

Secondly, you want to talk about out of touch, read again what I said to telco. Even if you tax 100%, I mean ONE FREAKING HUNDRED PERCENT of ALLLLLLL income above 250k per household, you still dont cover a trillion. We already have enough freaking revenue, what we dont have are responsible spenders of said revenue.

[R/T Hemi]

You seem to perceive humans as mindless drones, that will continue their actions as is regardless of the details in their life. This is so out of touch with reality its not even funny. Humans are by nature, reactionary. If you change their surroundings, they change their behavior to suit. Add to this the fact that humans are also pirates by nature, try to get anything you can for free, and hide what you have from everyone else, this leads you to the understanding that hiking taxes, especially hiking already grossly outproportioned taxes, only leads to actions that actually lead to reduces revenue. But again, you go ahead and give it a go and see where it takes you.

Mindless drones? Well maybe those in the red states, but not others. Pirates by nature? Not in my neighborhood. Out of proportioned taxes? Just for the >250k crowd. Your hike taxes and reduce revenue example is false. That's what trickle down economists have projected for years as a scare tactic to bolster their pet theory. TD economics is part of the problem we're where we now are.

Secondly, you want to talk about out of touch, read again what I said to telco. Even if you tax 100%, I mean ONE FREAKING HUNDRED PERCENT of ALLLLLLL income above 250k per household, you still dont cover a trillion. We already have enough freaking revenue, what we dont have are responsible spenders of said revenue.

No one is arguing that. It's merely a start. Damn, show me where TD economics works? All tax cuts for the rich do is benefit the rich. It never trickles down.

[stebo0728]

What I'm saying is, the rich simply dont make enough to cover the bill, even if you tax them 100%. Revenue IS NOT the problem. SPENDING is the problem. I'm not talking about trickle economics, Im talking about hard fact, 100% of income over 250k per year doesnt even touch a trillion. So how is adding a tax increase of 10 or 15% of that, or even 25% of that overage going to close the gap? ITS NOT! We want too much as a progressive nation, and the truth is, we cant afford it. We are living beyond our means as a nation. Lets say a 25% tax over 250k would bring you at best 250 billion, ok, lets do it. Then are you going to cut the extra 3.75 trillion in spending that it will require to close the gap? Its like your wanting the dude with a water pail to start chuckin water on the fire before you will turn on the water hoses. Get real. Stop the class warfare, wealth envy bull crap and come to grips.

[stebo0728]

What you lefties should really do is bring back 'ol Hillary's plan to start imputing income, in the amount of average housing costs, to people who own their homes outright, since not having a house payment or rent payment is an "unfair advantage". Even though they probably ate crackers and ketchup for 14 years straight to pay the damned house off.

[Encryptshun]

I'm sorry that I am adding to the tangent, Greg. I'll delete my post if you're trying to get the thread back on topic. But if you'll indulge, I'll sidle into this ro-sham-bo to address this taxation issue, which has become such a conservative battlecry that even the conservatives have forgotten why it was they keep shouting it in the first place. But when they have so little of their platform left to rally around, I guess that's how they end up.

Anyway, please forgive my trademark slightly over-baked prose:

1) The last time our budget ran a surplus was under Bill Clinton.

2) We started running deficits again within 12 months of George W. Bush signing the tax cut bill.

3) We are paying for two extremely expensive wars.

4) We are suffering the worst economic downturn since the 1930s. We have fewer people paying in to the system and more people taking out of it. That's simple math.

5) Trickle-down economics does not work -- it's like giving someone steak in the hopes his crap will taste better.

6) The currrent deficit level is due primarily to a combination of #3 above, one-time stimulus and extension of unemployment benefits; the latter two of which, I believe, will eventually be recognized as key to the recession not getting WORSE. But it's really difficult to tie tangible benefit to risk mitigation (as the only way to determine the actual benefit is to not do anything and then later do a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" analysis). If we can get Americans back to work our revenue base will increase and our deficit will decrease.

7) If you think that the top 1% of wealthy people are in any way more productive, more "classy", or more entitled than anyone else you are deluded. It's not class warfare to ask those who have received the most benefit from our nation's commercial favorability to pay the most back in to the system. Hell, ask Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Tom Steyner, and Ted Turner, who actually go out and lobby for increased taxation on the wealthy.

8) We spend more each year on defense than we do on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security (which is mostly self-funded for now) COMBINED. Yet I don't hear any Republicans or Tea Partiers talking about how we can take better care of our people if we cut defense spending. No, it's the same backward thought process -- fund jails and not schools, fund wars and not healthcare, pander to corporations who move jobs overseas instead of investing in our own infrastructure, give Big Oil $1.3 Trillion a year in subsidies they don't need while making it harder for startups and small businesses who want to make a true green energy free-market.

9) And before we start placing the blame for all our current woes squarely on the head of our current POTUS, let's not forget Senator Mitch McConnell's widely praised vow: that his primary political goal was to make Obama a one-term President. Seriously, if Obama had stood in front of Congress and said the sky was blue, the Republicans would have gone on Fox News testifying that only Socialists think the sky is blue and isn't the atmosphere a lovely shade of azure this afternoon. If the guy has been less effective than some people want, I put the blame squarely on the shoulders of his entrenched opposition: the POTUS is not an island -- being pointlessly against anything he wants to do, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not, is self-fulfilling prophecy bullshiat. You can't refuse to participate in helpful activities and then decry the lack of progress. In the corporate world, that stuff will get you fired. Hell, Obama has been the right's best friend since 2008 -- his own PARTY doesn't support him because he's too willing to compromise. But the Republicans, instead of fostering that sense of compromise, instead of leveraging that to write good policy for the sake of ALL the American people, have steadfastly refused to contribute anything other than polemics simply because Obama is a -- *gasp* -- Democrat. They've run his name through the mud, they've questioned his patriotism, they've played wag the dog with the media about his birth certificate; they have done everything they can possibly do to act like the standing government is one huge political campaign and their job is to come up with the smear ads. It's disgusting. Not because I think the Dems are so much better, but because the Repubs had 3 years worth of prime opportunity to work with the administration and elected NOT to. And now they are whining and belly-aching about how it's all Obama's fault, how he never has any ideas, how he refuses to work with them. Well, if your party platform espouses self-empowerment, an emphasis on healthy competition, and a desire to "do what's right for the American people", all while putting on some vapid dog-and-pony show in a blatant effort to win political power then you are a cowardly, loathesome, despicable hypocrite.

And, back to the original topic, Biden is a buffoon, sure. But that's pretty much the job of the VP, isn't it? And, if Giffords wasn't offended then I'd be more likely to believe it was an ill-conceived comment delivered with good-natured intent that got blown out of proportion. He did have the top part of his skull removed -- twice -- to treat aneurisms. When the second one was performed, pundits in Delaware commented "it's because they couldn't find a brain the first time." He shouldn't have said it, but with all the other crap that's going on, that incident is pretty small fish by comparison.

[telcoman]

Encryptshun
+1

Nice post, well written and spot on

Telcoman

[AZhitman]

No one is arguing that. It's merely a start.

Really? How about the latest chunk of change in increased aid BO just pledged to Somalia? I don't hear you and the rest of the libbies screaming about that. It's JUST A START, right?

Damn, show me where TD economics works? All tax cuts for the rich do is benefit the rich. It never trickles down.

Show me it doesn't. "Never"? Really? Ever? You're so confused. I can prove you wrong on that one easily - by using my own household as an example. Therefore, you're wrong.

PROVE to me that tax cuts on corporations and the wealthy don't result in more disposable income, which is spent on goods and services, which are provided by lower income earners. Go ahead - I'll wait.

How, let's start with those Bush era tax cuts. Wait, there's a problem with that....someone still believes that's the shot in the arm the economy needs. Never mind the opposite has happened since GW got that brilliant idea into the tax code.

I don't see you whining over BO's decision to extend them.

[AZhitman]

Encryptshun
+1

Nice post, well written and spot on

Telcoman

Miraculously, I don't disagree.

But Howie won't ever comprehend why.

[stebo0728]

1) The last time our budget ran a surplus was under Bill Clinton.

I'm so tired of hearing this. That was only a projected surplus, not a real tangible one. And lets not forget Clinton got to ride the big 'ol interwebs bubble, which pretty much blew up as an inaugural gift for W. Thats not Clintons fault, but it wasn't W's either. People get so confused with the way we call "projected" items real items, and they arent. You cant have one congress bind the hands of another. Thats why these stupid spending cuts we got are "fake cuts" because they are projected.

4) We are suffering the worst economic downturn since the 1930s. We have fewer people paying in to the system and more people taking out of it. That's simple math.

All thanks to the Roosevelt Entitlement Era we're living in. 51% of lower America pays NO tax. The top 1% pay what, 40% I think I heard. I dont get how you guys think the wealthy aren't already paying their fair share. Its like you say "gee we want all this fluffy stuff, middle America cant afford it, but thats ok we can rape the wealthy since they can't fight back". Well guess what, they do fight back, they move their wealth oversea's, they stop drawing income and start making capital gains money, or find other sources. Buffet is quoted as saying something to the effect that "I pay less tax than my housekeeper, and thats outrageous". Way to only talk about income tax, and skew the argument. The left's ideas of economics are so absurd.

5) Trickle-down economics does not work -- it's like giving someone steak in the hopes his crap will taste better.

No its more like letting someone keep more of his cows, in the hopes that he'll butcher them and put more steaks on the market, making the price of steak go down.

6) The currrent deficit level is due primarily to a combination of #3 above, one-time stimulus and extension of unemployment benefits; the latter two of which, I believe, will eventually be recognized as key to the recession not getting WORSE. But it's really difficult to tie tangible benefit to risk mitigation (as the only way to determine the actual benefit is to not do anything and then later do a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" analysis). If we can get Americans back to work our revenue base will increase and our deficit will decrease.

There was a competing stimulus plan at the time that would have suspended payroll taxes for everyone for 6 months, which would have shorted the treasury roughly the same amount as the stimulus plan was going to pay out. This would have put more purchasing power IN THE MARKET rather than in the government's hands. But now, DC thinks they can spend OUR money better than we can, and thus the sh*tty stimulus plan went out. I blame W just as much, he started the stimulus crap, and BO followed right down his same path. You want to broaden the revenue base? Do something about the 51% of lower America that pays ZERO tax. Even if they pay 2 bucks, its something, its some kind of skin in the game.

7) If you think that the top 1% of wealthy people are in any way more productive, more "classy", or more entitled than anyone else you are deluded. It's not class warfare to ask those who have received the most benefit from our nation's commercial favorability to pay the most back in to the system. Hell, ask Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Tom Steyner, and Ted Turner, who actually go out and lobby for increased taxation on the wealthy.

Its not that they are more productive per se, its more that they are the source for jobs, they have the power to create jobs. The guy at McDonalds may work his a** off just as hard as Bill Gates. But try to get the McDonalds guy to create 300,000 jobs. It aint happening. That doesn't mean the McDonalds guy is less "classy", it just means you dont beat the sh*t out of Bill Gates' wallet just so the McDonalds guy can have a free cell phone. The folks you mention above, thats more PR than anything else. You think the TV addicted lower class would watch Turner broadcasts if he portrayed himself as a stingy tycoon? Well, actually, they would because they are oblivious to that sort of stuff anyway. Now if Ted were to be on Dancing with the Stars.....or was he already?

[R/T Hemi]

d/p never mind.

[R/T Hemi]

Encryptshun you're spot on. Even Greg had to stumble and stutter in response to you. Case in point our discussion of the trickle down theory. Greg challenged me, and agreed with you, and he doesn't see it.

If only the years 2000-2008 and the multitude of mistakes that half-witted GW made, could be removed, we'd have a chance. GW is responsible for leaving the Republican party on life support.

Oh, and Greg. Trickle down - I'm pointing to ALLLLLLLLLL the jobs it was suppose to create. See them, look there's one.....McDonald's needs a....never mind, they bought a Chinese machine with the tax saving and eliminated a position....

[Encryptshun]

See, I voted for George W. Bush -- TWICE. I don't think he was the dumbarse the hardcore liberal set make him out to be. Just like I don't think that Obama the monster that the hardcore conservative set make HIM out to be. Both are human, both make mistakes, both are only as good as the people around them.

There was a time in this country when being President MEANT something. Now it's all about who can defame him the loudest. But what people don't seem to understand is that when you defame the man, you defame the OFFICE. And that just makes us look like the biggest mouthbreather on the playground to the rest of the world.

Our nation is tearing itself apart, and there are forces at work who are perfectly okay with that happening, so long as they ensure that at the end of the day they are the winner. You know why we have started more wars as a nation than any other? Because if we don't have a common enemy, we turn in on ourselves. Why? If we're that far apart ideologically, then let's go ahead and split up into the Conservative States of America and the Liberal Republics of America. Let's sh*t or get off the pot.

Oh wait, you mean that most Americans think we can get along perfectly well as a unified nation?

THEN WHY DO WE KEEP LISTENING TO AND BELIEVING THE RADICAL VOICES COMING FROM THE IDIOT-BOX? We're not even farking sheep anymore -- we're LEMMINGS.

/rant

[stebo0728]

We're in a maze. The group wants to keep going THIS way. As much as we might want to go a different way, the group is going THIS way, and unfortunately until we hit the wall and realize we've been heading the wrong way, theres likely to be no change of course. Question is, whats the wall? I thought we were about to hit it, now it seems we only stumbled a bit. What will constitute the WALL for people to realize socialism and American dreams dont jive?

Of course, I'm sure when we finally reach the end of the maze we'll find out:

[Encryptshun]

Stebo, I humbly request that you explain to me how socialism and American dreams don't jive. As a matter of fact, I challenge you to define "American dreams".

[stebo0728]

Hey cant I poke conjecture out there every now and then?

Seriously thought, Bernie Marcus, founder of Home Depot, has gone on record stating that under today's eco/political climate, that what he did with Home Depot would NOT be possible. In my mind, America is great because of opportunity, not because of what its government can do. Yes the free market results in some being the loser, but thats life. Whats great about the old America is that even if you were the loser, you could still have a chance to pick up, try something different, and pull ahead. No one wants to do that anymore, well actually, most people never really did, but at first they had no choice. The more we make dependants out of Americans, the more dependant they want to be. And we embrace it because it gives DC more power, and it makes it easier for DC to hold on to the power, or to skew the voting classes.

But that comes down to the fundamental differences already present between conservatives and progressives. Some see the individual as being top dog, and should be allowed to be free to make their own way, and lose their own way as well. In a world of unquestionably limited resources, the cold hard fact is that not everyone gets a piece of the pie. Then another side thinks we can even it all out, give everyone an equal amount of "stuff". Ever pondered what that amount of "stuff" would be if everyone's were equal? Wouldnt be enough to survive on i expect.

But dont mind me, I'm just the guy who found the old dusty map to the maze in the chest, and knows the way out. But we'll keep heading THIS way and see where it goes.

[Encryptshun]

See I'd counter that a status quo which would prevent a Home Depot from happening is a GOOD thing. I'd rather see smaller businesses with more direct family or employee ownership and fewer mega-corporations stacking the free-market deck, all while paying far less than their fair share of taxes and putting horrible burdens on our unemployment programs as they churn-n-burn through their workforce.

Key to capitalism? Capital. Money is most important.
Key to socialism? Society. Society is most important.
Key to communism? Community. Community is most important.

I personally am more of a free-market capitalist, as I believe that the LACK of money is the root of most evil. The problem is that our current conservative agenda is crippling our free markets, while deflecting criticism by calling the progressive agenda socialist.

[stebo0728]

Well to be fair, the current republican program is socialism too, just more of a corporate socialism than an household socialism. Im sick of Republicans more than Democrats, to be honest. At least I know what I'm dealing with with Democrats, and dont start to get confused when I feel in disagreement with them. The Republicans on the other hand, should be standing for conservatism, and arent. Its almost as if conservatives have become disenfranchised in todays political climate. And the few that do stick around seem to have left their balls at home in their wives purses.

The Home Depot example is more complicated that I laid out. I agree with your sentiment of more small business. This allows the middle class to be involved in the business ownership, rather than keeping it in the elite class. But the point I've tried, and most likely failed, at making is that the market should be in control of things of this nature, not government. As far as business goes, I say end corporate tax, they dont PAY it anyway, we do when we purchase. To subsidies, exemptions. No market interference measures, like Affirmative Action. Put healthcare and its decision making power in the hand of the people, not the employers. Decisions to hire are made now based on "employee count limits" and what changing the number of employees will mean for the business tax wise, or regulation wise. This should not be. A company shouldnt have to mull over things like that to decide whether to hire 2 people because it will put them over X amount, and put them in a new regulation class.

But I take the free market even further, in that it should govern our own lives as well. Government based social programs have no place, because as I've stated before, social programs infringe upon individual freedom, liberty, and property rights, based upon the need of another individual. Add to that the government's unique ability to force its appointed measures, and you start to get the mess we're in. Charity, in whatever measure it exists, needs be maintained at the private level, where choice is involved. You voluntarily give to your church, or to Jerry Lewis, or to March of Dimes, or what have you. You voluntarily invest in your future, or you deal with the fact that you have no future later. You dont bend others over and force them to share the consequences of your lifetime of irresponsibility. Do some start out in better positions than others? Sure thats life. Some seeds land in soil, some land in water, but thats life. You dont FORCE charity on people, or the quality of charity declines.

Thats what I was getting at when I said that socialism, real socialism, is not congruent with the American way. Europe is learning this very lesson, and is crawling out of the landfill that is socialism. Perhaps we're destined to tread the same road, to learn the same lessons, but it would behoove us to learn from the lessons of others.

[szh]

See, I voted for George W. Bush -- TWICE. I don't think he was the dumbarse the hardcore liberal set make him out to be. Just like I don't think that Obama the monster that the hardcore conservative set make HIM out to be. Both are human, both make mistakes, both are only as good as the people around them.

Agreed!

Although I did not vote for Bush the second time - But I didn't vote for Kerry or Gore either.

This last election, I did not vote for Obama or McCain ... my Republican vote went elsewhere (not that it matters in California. )

There was a time in this country when being President MEANT something. Now it's all about who can defame him the loudest. But what people don't seem to understand is that when you defame the man, you defame the OFFICE. And that just makes us look like the biggest mouthbreather on the playground to the rest of the world.

I am not totally in agreement here. Yes, the office means something, so arbitrary and irrational defamation is absurd and unnecessary. I am not sure if it makes us be worse in the eyes of the world. If anything, I think that the openness - our ability to criticize the President without fear of harsh reprisals - is seen as a strength.

However, the President needs to be appropriately accountable as well. So, if he/she does or says something inappropriate for the office, regardless of the party they come from, then they need to be taken to task ... in an appropriate manner. Again, arbitrary flaming and defamation are not good - albeit in a democracy, they can, and will, occur.

Z

[szh]

Trickle down - I'm pointing to ALLLLLLLLLL the jobs it was suppose to create. See them, look there's one.....McDonald's needs a....never mind, they bought a Chinese machine with the tax saving and eliminated a position....

I wish it was as simple as you are making it out to be. But it simply isn't.

Economics "cause-and-direct-effect" simply does not happen - particularly with the time lags involved in making changes that are expected to have an impact.

Z