Midsize Trucks are dumb.

[nissangirl74]

It's amazing what an exhaust system, upgraded stereo, upgraded suspension, and manual transmission can make. Becky's pickup is a hoot to drive while the brand new automatic Frontier 4.0 I rented for a month was like a Buick Century with a pickup bed. They drive like completely and entirely different vehicles.

One of the local guys has an '05 Frontier with the automatic. We went to a car show up in Williams three years ago,and he hauled his 510 up on a trailer (we hauled the wagon). We passed him going up the 17 (a fairly significant grade) and arrived almost a full 30 minutes before he did. When we were giving him s*** about it, he says, "well, I like not having to worry about downshifting trying to climb the hills." To which I said, "Who said I ever had to down-shift?"

[Kompresshun]

I think a Frontier or an Xterra will be on my next vehicle shopping list for sure after hearing that. I just want something I can comfortably pull a trailer with that isn't a land yacht. I do really like the newer full size trucks, but i'm also tired of having a vehicle I can't park in the garage.

[Bubba1]

No. They're functional and basic.

So if an owner uses his 10 yr old design midsize pickup strictly as a DD/commuter vehicle (as so many of them are), it's cool because that vehicle is considered functional and basic. But if you substitute the word "sedan" for pickup in the same scenario, does cool still apply?

[Jesda]

So if an owner uses his 10 yr old design midsize pickup strictly as a DD/commuter vehicle (as so many of them are), it's cool because that vehicle is considered functional and basic. But if you substitute the word "sedan" for pickup in the same scenario, does cool still apply?

A sedan is like the nice clothes you might wear to work.

A truck is like your box of tools.


If you were truly interested in complete passenger car functionality, you'd get a wagon or hatchback. The sedan format is mostly for its formal appearance.


So no, you can't simply substitute words and expect the same standards to apply.

[Rev_D21]

Point and laugh.

I don't know about laughing at this one. The X-runner is a bad a** truck in my book.

[Bubba1]

I think a Frontier or an Xterra will be on my next vehicle shopping list for sure after hearing that. I just want something I can comfortably pull a trailer with that isn't a land yacht. I do really like the newer full size trucks, but i'm also tired of having a vehicle I can't park in the garage.

One thing to consider is how often you plan to use that vehicle for towing. For example, I average a little over once per month using my tow vehicle. I couldn't see myself spending significant money for a late model, comparatively thirsty vehicle that sees that little use. I ended up buying an old GMC full sized pickup based tow vehicle. While it lacks modern creature comforts, it was very cheap to acquire, cheap to insure, and cheap to maintain. Just food for thought.

[Dattebayo]

I don't know about laughing at this one. The X-runner is a bad a** truck in my book.

I think it's more of a wheel thing there.

[AZhitman]

I don't know about laughing at this one. The X-runner is a bad a** truck in my book.

He agrees.

[AZhitman]

I think a Frontier or an Xterra will be on my next vehicle shopping list for sure after hearing that. I just want something I can comfortably pull a trailer with that isn't a land yacht. I do really like the newer full size trucks, but i'm also tired of having a vehicle I can't park in the garage.

One thing to consider is how often you plan to use that vehicle for towing. For example, I average a little over once per month using my tow vehicle. I couldn't see myself spending significant money for a late model, comparatively thirsty vehicle that sees that little use. I ended up buying an old GMC full sized pickup based tow vehicle. While it lacks modern creature comforts, it was very cheap to acquire, cheap to insure, and cheap to maintain. Just food for thought.

I like the dual-purpose idea. We can drive the Fronty as a DD. It's nimble enough to bust through traffic, but will still work like a dog. I don't know of any Xterra owners who dislike their ride, but I know a lot of former X owners who wish they had it back.

[Jesda]

I don't know of any Xterra owners who dislike their ride, but I know a lot of former X owners who wish they had it back.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmhA1CxUnzc[/youtube]

[Rev_D21]

I don't know about laughing at this one. The X-runner is a bad a** truck in my book.

He agrees.

X-runners running Autocross.. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... cross&sm=3

vs.

D40 Frontiers running AutoCross= 0

vs.

Nissan D21 running Autocross... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... cross&sm=3

You can laugh at the 4wd version all you want but the only trucks Nissan has running autocross are D21 Hardbodies. I'll laugh at the X-runner as soon as Nissan has its own version I can take out to stomp em with.

[AZhitman]

I get ya - But no one buys a new truck for autocross.

[Rev_D21]

Well it seems some people do, x-runners at least.

[elwesso]

I thought a little bit more about this subject, and the more I think about it, the more that midsize trucks make sense and how the F150's, Silverado and Ram 1500s, Titan, etc don't really make a lot of sense.

If a frontier can tow 6000lbs pretty easily, how many people actually tow something heavier than that. 6000lb towing capacity will tow almost any car or boat, and a good share of 5th wheels. If you're going to tow anything bigger than that, you probably will need a 3/4 ton truck with a lot more towing capacity.

[Jesda]

Problem is that midsize trucks aren't any better on fuel consumption and cost about the same as an entry-level half ton. Minus whale go big.

[elwesso]

But, you don't really gain anything by going with the full size, besides something that's bigger and less maneuverable.. I think we could agree that there is a lot of overlap between entry level full size and midsize. So, if that's the case then why would you recommend a full size over a mid size?

[Bubba1]

But, you don't really gain anything by going with the full size, besides something that's bigger and less maneuverable.. I think we could agree that there is a lot of overlap between entry level full size and midsize. So, if that's the case then why would you recommend a full size over a mid size?

A better question might be why consider a midsize over a full sized? The new full sized ones are bigger, more comfortable, cost about the same and get as good if not better gas mileage. Both the Frontier and Tacoma's current designs are what, 8-9 years old, excluding facelifts? I'd be a bit concerned about the Nissan will do next gen Frontier, given how they turned the Pathfinder into the Mallfinder....

[Jesda]

But, you don't really gain anything by going with the full size, besides something that's bigger and less maneuverable.. I think we could agree that there is a lot of overlap between entry level full size and midsize. So, if that's the case then why would you recommend a full size over a mid size?

You gain space, comfort, ride quality, and a little more capability with fuel economy that's about the same. Maneuverability isn't really much of a concern for most truck owners who tend to live in suburban or rural areas with ample free parking. Indeed, most half-ton owners don't need them, but considering the minimal price difference, why not go big?

Though incentives are still common on half-tons, most midsize pickups only sold with generous discounts. GM hardly made a dime on Colorado/Canyon, and I doubt the Frontier is a cash cow for Nissan. The S10/Sonoma did quite well but that was a much smaller and more affordable truck in its time.

It's a different story at Toyota, however, where small and midsize pickups sold in small but sustainable quantities (at least in the US) while their Tundra continues to struggle.

[ScrapMetal]

What's with all the Taco hate?

I've test driven both 2013 Taco crew cab and Frontier crew cab with V6s. The Frontier's ride was softer and to me was more comfortable on the road but the Taco's interior was hands down the nicer one of the two. Don't know what you meant by Camryfied, Hitman but the Taco's Camry interior was better thought out. Both have about the same amount of power, massive size and crappy fuel economy.

They're both similar and both great trucks, no need for the unnecessary hate man.

Though if I was gonna spend my hard earned credit on one of the two it'd be the Tacoma.

[Jesda]

Tacomas have body integrity issues that make the Chevy Vega look like it was made of granite.

[Kompresshun]

^This is true. I don't know if it followed into the current generation, but I have rarely seen a rust free Taco on the used market. I'm a big fan of their reliability, but as far as owning one i've always felt like they're far too overpriced. That's probably why i've never bought one either, because why would I pay $12,000 for a 15 year old truck with 200k miles on it that is beginning to rot away?

One thing to consider is how often you plan to use that vehicle for towing. For example, I average a little over once per month using my tow vehicle. I couldn't see myself spending significant money for a late model, comparatively thirsty vehicle that sees that little use. I ended up buying an old GMC full sized pickup based tow vehicle. While it lacks modern creature comforts, it was very cheap to acquire, cheap to insure, and cheap to maintain. Just food for thought.

I kinda like the dual purpose idea as well, rather than just having a tow vehicle sitting around. I will address the need more once I get closer to needing to buy another vehicle for myself. By that time we may be living in a different state and I may be having to commute a lot further than I do now, so it may not be ideal.

Currently though, the fuel economy wouldn't matter a whole lot and I just would really like to have another truck. Whether it be full or mid size, just because I have to use the Kia a lot right now and make it work for hauling stuff.

[ScrapMetal]

I live in the south, not a lot of rust issues out here.

I'd never buy a Tacoma used when there's a ton of equally competent Rangers down here for cheap. Used Taco's are super expensive here especially the 4x4s.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I'd be a bit concerned about the Nissan will do next gen Frontier, given how they turned the Pathfinder into the Mallfinder....

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The frontier/Navara is a global design, going to countries that are generally a lot harder on them than we are here in the States.

That being said, they also get a lot more engine options (diesel included).

I think in this country, the Tacoma has a better 4 cylinder option, so if I were buying a truck with a 4 banger, I'd go for that. Otherwise, frontier all the way.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Why not? Why the need for a Body-on-ladder-frame construction, Separate bed and cab or Longitudinal drive trains? Heck the new Ram Promaster is a FWD van that has a payload capacity of 4,430 lbs. Do you think companies who buy these as fleet vehicles are going to be put off by the fact that it's FWD or that it has a transverse drive train and opt for a more traditional gas/diesel guzzling work van? If Chrysler thought that way they wouldn't be bringing it here.

Was away for the weekend but now I'm back and will answer:

1: Because trucks are still built the way they are for a reason (see below).

2: Body-on-frame is VASTLY more durable, better-suited to hauling and towing, and more suitable to offroad use where strong torsional loads will be applied to the frame.

3: Separate bed has numerous benefits. Firstly: modularity. Secondly, it is again useful in offroading scenarios as it allows the frame to flex (modern truck frames are pretty damn rigid, so this MIGHT not be an issue anymore, but in general it's better to have two short bits of body that can flex separately rather than one long one that can't). Thirdly: pickup truck beds get beat on HARD. Throwing rocks, metal, dirt, liquids, etc. inside. An isolated, separate bed keeps that all away from the cabin and means dents and dings aren't a big concern.

4: The Promaster FWD is a van. Just like a Transit connect or an NV200. It might be a great van. It's not remotely a pickup truck. Arguing that FWD is fine for pick-ups because there's a van that uses it is like arguing that direct exposure to fire is good for people because you can cook dead birds with it.

5: You want your drive wheels under your payload, not out in front, or your handling dynamics get weird. Especially whent traction becomes limited.

6: Even if you were okay with FWD, the transverse CAR automatics getting put in Utes and Crossovers are NOT suited to towing or heaving payloads over long distances. They overheat very quickly even when geared appropriately (which is never the case, because they're repurposed from CARS). Even older half-ton TRUCK transmissions could be overheated easily by misuse in towing. Nobody who uses their truck as a truck is going to get any kind of real longevity out of a repurposed Accord/Camry/Malibu/Altima transmission. And aside from the toughness issue, front-biased AWD is an overcomplicated mess, so any vehicle that's intended to be sold in both 2- and 4-wheel-drive formats just makes more sense with a longitudinal setup.
FWD does have one big benefit for use in vans and wagons, though: lower cargo floor. Which is why things like the Transit Connect are suddenly getting popular in the US (and have been elsewhere for a long time). The thing you'll notice, though, is that next to none of these unibody FWD vans are mid- or full-size. They're almost all compact, where payload requirements will be minimal.

7: No, fleet buyers might not be put off by FWD in their VAN which is not what we're talking about at all. That's my whole point here: what makes a good [x vehicle] doesn't necessarily make a good PICKUP TRUCK.
But I can absolutely attest to the fact that fleet buyers WOULD run screaming in fear from any FWD PICKUP on offer. Which is why you have never EVER EVER seen a fleet Ridgeline. But you've seen millions of base-model 2wd "W/T" trim Chevy pickups and base model F150s and stripper Tundras and Titans.
Something you also don't see fleet buyers buying: midsize trucks. Because they're pointless. None of the workplace versatility of a cheap beater half-ton.

Trucks are for work. Some people use their trucks for work so frequently that they like them to be comfortable, hence the nice interiors that make my Lincoln look sad (okay, so that's a bad example; 15 year old Kias make my Lincoln's interior look sad. But you get the point). Doesn't mean those people don't need a TRUCK to do TRUCK stuff in. Doesn't mean they're ready to trade in the low-range 4WD and longbed for an ES350. It means they like a nice truck.
I, personally, don't. I have a 15 year old kia stuffed inside a Jaguar for when I want to drive something "nice." When I need a truck, I want a gorram truck. Tough, durable, dependable, and simple.

The Chevrolet Montana or Fiat Strada will do everything my S10 does and then some, all the while being more fuel efficient, comfortable and probably safer.

Not true.
It would do everything YOU do with your S10. Not everything your S10 does.
Simple fact is: you're not a "typical" truck owner. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean trucks don't need to do more than you need them to.

[AZhitman]

What's with all the Taco hate?

They're both similar and both great trucks, no need for the unnecessary hate man.

Though if I was gonna spend my hard earned credit on one of the two it'd be the Tacoma.

Dandy if you don't want to haul or tow. The Fronty is faster, more powerful, more roomy, and does TRUCK things better.

That frilly interior won't help you pull a trailer or merge onto a freeway.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I loved older generation Tacomas. The current gen has gotten soft AND developed dependability issues. Not appealing.
I can't help but think its weaker capabilities must be related to the increasing camrification of its ugly brother the 4Runner.

[AZhitman]

Yep. The 4Runner of the early 00's was sweet.

[ScrapMetal]

Simple fact is: you're not a "typical" truck owner. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean trucks don't need to do more than you need them to.

You make it seem as if 99% of truck owners are out towing skid loaders on a daily basis. I don't know what a "typical truck owner" is but I like to think I use my truck as a truck when compared to the majority of truck owners. I go back to my previous post about hauling engines and transmissions a few times a week for work(I work for a diesel repair shop). I'm not a contractor or a construction worker but I do more with my little truck than some people, who use theirs as a daily driver to and from work.

Your post was very well thought out and I agree with you on most things but besides the off road capabilities and towing figures of a BOF truck I'll still stick to my opinion that one of those little "utes" can do most of the things that a traditional compact RWD BOF truck can do and what 90% of compact RWD truck owners expect them to do. If you need a truck to do "truck stuff", whatever the hell that means, there are plenty of options but not everyone's constantly needing to tow Bobcats or run the Baja 1000.

Dandy if you don't want to haul or tow. The Fronty is faster, more powerful, more roomy, and does TRUCK things better.

That frilly interior won't help you pull a trailer or merge onto a freeway.

Another vague "truck things/stuff" comment.

The two trucks are almost identical when it comes to performace. I think the Frontier has like 20 more horses and 15 lb-ft of torque. Not enough of a difference for the silly "Dandy if you don't want to haul or tow" comment. We get it man, Nissan or nothing for you.

I'm not bashing the Frontier, I love the truck and would actually buy a used one before I'd buy a used Taco but the Taco bashing coming from you is just unnecessary. We're all car/truck guys and gals, no need to turn this into a useless thread similar to the Ford vs. Chevy threads on 4chan /o/.

[AZhitman]

We get it man, Nissan or nothing for you.

Um, I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm a bigger Nissan critic than 90% of the members here.

Taco bashing coming from you is just unnecessary.

Not bashing. It's an inferior truck. Period. If a reader wanted specific reasons, I think I posted a few, but here's more:

Looking at the 2005+ generation, the Frontier has more interior room (in 7 of 8 dimensions), a more versatile load-securing arrangement (Utili-trak, aka 'truck stuff'), more power, more torque, better fuel economy, more ground clearance, stability control standard, and more airbags. Testers bagged the Taco's "vague manual shifter" and "spongy brake response."

Interior appearance is subjective, as is exterior appearance... Hard to really rate those. I think both are handsome trucks, and I actually prefer the last-gen Taco's exterior appearance.

It's educational. It's discussion. It's not "bashing."

On a side note, you'd have really liked the little ute I drove at the Nissan 360 event. Perfect for the kind of stuff you do, and it had a small turbodiesel and a 5MT. Unfortunately, it's not coming to the US.

[Rev_D21]

Utes are good for carrying flower pots, LCD TVs and micro-refridgerators but what if you are a land owner and have rough terrain that you have to travel over while carrying a load of wood for your wood burning stove? You are a contractor and need to install a ladder rack, side tool boxes and an air compressor. I know a truck like an S10 or a Hardbody can handle those situations. Can a ute be used to haul scrap to the junk yard? They can be handy but they are sprung like a car and as such they can only go where cars go which is not very far off road and they can basically only carry what a car can carry which isn't too much. It's hard to judge all truck owners by a few cheese d!ck who buy an F150 just to make up for lacking manhood.

My 1991 Hardbody had been a work truck since day one. It worked on an apple farm in CA for 20 years before being shipped to NY 3 years ago to be used as a contractors truck then I got it. It's currently going through a transmission swap then it's back to work as a work truck hauling parts and scrap and towing lawn equipment. 177,000 miles and it's scratched to hell but under all that ugly there's a truck ready for work.

That is what makes the old minitrucks so great. A FWD car version would never survive being a farm truck from day one. It would never make it through the mud and s*** at the scrap yard.