McCain's campaign has reaching a new low....

[ishkabibble]

The point? You missed it. Yep.

Right back atchya.

McCain's age and health are relevant points of discussion in terms of his ability to be a successful President. Obama's skin color is not. Hence the FAA analogy.

[AZhitman]

McCain's age and health are relevant points of discussion in terms of his ability to be a successful President. Obama's skin color is not. Hence the FAA analogy.

Well, know this then, since you take such pride in how informed you are:

Obama's ONLY concession to pressure that he release HIS medical records? A one-page checklist from his doctor that's less detailed than a grade-schooler's sports waiver.

Now you've been educated.

Perhaps he has something to hide himself, as a smoker (who chooses not to quit) and a former narcotics user.

[ishkabibble]

That is a valid point of discussion.

However, it's irrelevant for me to know, as I decided not to vote for the guy after he compromised about telecom immunity.

[AZhitman]

That is a valid point of discussion.

However, it's irrelevant for me to know, as I decided not to vote for the guy after he compromised about telecom immunity.

That's all it took?

Hell, you're easy.

[confedup]

As for the fairness doctrine. Its a perfectly valid concept, however given what we call news today it doesn't look like it. If we held our news to the standard that they should be this wouldn't even be up for debate. The government licenses the use of the public airwaves (my/your/our airwaves) and we should expect them to be used properly. They are a privlege to use as a revenue stream, not a right.

How is it a valid concept being how it is use for the sole purpose of changing am talk radio. THAT is the reason the Democrats are trying to press it back into law. Air America was a great failure as they made no money so the way to try and shut down the Rush's of the world is to attack the stations themselves. Nobody is stoping other stations or a new conglomerate similar to Clear Channel coming along and promoting left-hand viewpoints. Standard left-handed BS is if you can't get people to listen to what you want to say then simply make laws which will force more of your viewpoint into the mainstream.

[AZhitman]

Sure goes against all the "freedom of speech" and "anything goes" position f the Left, don't it?

[srellim234]

Why aren't you also criticizing Johnny Mac, who is pretty much a no-show in Congress? He's only been there for around 40% of the votes this session. Obama has been around for about 60%.

McCain's voting record isn't even part of this discussion. The discussion had to do with Obama's situation.

[Cold_Zero]

This one is for Rob.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLj60GCBap0

you think McCain has gone negative? This one takes the cake, check this ad out. I call it, "When Democrats Attack...Fellow Democrats."

Carolyn Kilpatrick's son is running for re-election as the mayor of Detroit. This is a primary ad against Kwame Kilpatrick. Yes the mayor that used city Credit cards for personal use and lied about an affair to investigators.

[Cold_Zero]

Didn't see you guys talking about Ludacris's song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated

"McCain dont belong in any chair unless he is paralyzed.. Yeah I said it cause Bush is mentally handicapped" I already heard that the Obama camp condemned the song that goes on to attack, Hillary and Bill Clinton. Way to go Ludacris, way to prey on race and fear mongering.

[ishkabibble]

McCain's voting record isn't even part of this discussion. The discussion had to do with Obama's situation.

Are you suggesting that you can still do your job as Senator without showing up for votes? They are both guilty of not doing their jobs.

[smockers83]

Kilpatrick has caused such a problem in Detroit that not even Governor Granholm wants to get involved. If he think he can get re-elected... He has no chance, Detroit is fed up with him. I think MI is fed up with him to be honest.

[srellim234]

Are you suggesting that you can still do your job as Senator without showing up for votes? They are both guilty of not doing their jobs.

I agree. But you were on my case for not bringing up McCain's voting record in this thread and I explained why. If you want to fire up a thread about McCain's "no shows" I'll be happy to tell you he's not doing his job, either. I'm not going to bring up Obama's dereliction of duty in that thread. Two different subjects in the context of the specific topic at hand.

You seem to think that everyone is 100% one way or the other. That's what's wrong with most political discussions. It isn't "either-or". Some of us are centrist and/or still undecided. In my case I don't care for either McCain or Obama. McCain now is nothing like the McCain I met in 2000.

[telcoman]

p.s. telco's still not responding to his pwning on Page 1.

Gregg

I've about given up on trying to convince you and a few others that hang out here that continuing to support McCain is a huge mistake and will only lead our country further down a path of destruction. What a mess we are in after eight years of Bush. There is no way you or any others will convince me otherwise. This country was much better off under eight years of Clinton despite some of his mistakes.Yes, I'm an old farht but having spent over 40 years in the workforce has made me realize that the Republicians have never given much to the middle class or the millions of Americans in the workforce. Do some research of labor history in the United States and you'll discover that the hey day of labor has been on a decline since Regan fired the Air Traffic Controllers and got away with it. Wages, benefits and working conditions have been on a steep decline ever since.Perhaps the time is coming for the pendulum to swing back in labors favor?

Telcoman

[rn79870]

I think George Santayana understood our objection to the current administration when he penned; Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[smockers83]

Do some research of labor history in the United States and you'll discover that the hey day of labor has been on a decline since Regan fired the Air Traffic Controllers and got away with it. Wages, benefits and working conditions have been on a steep decline ever since.

Based on what? Could you point me in the direction for this research?

[ishkabibble]

I agree. But you were on my case for not bringing up McCain's voting record in this thread and I explained why. If you want to fire up a thread about McCain's "no shows" I'll be happy to tell you he's not doing his job, either. I'm not going to bring up Obama's dereliction of duty in that thread. Two different subjects in the context of the specific topic at hand.

I get ya. But, from the OP, "I would really like to hear more about what McCain believes than negative attacks on Obama."

You seem to think that everyone is 100% one way or the other.

Nope. But there are definitely some examples of 100%ers on this forum.

[AZhitman]

1) I've about given up 2) Republicians have never given much to the middle class or the millions of Americans in the workforce3) you'll discover that the hey day of labor has been on a decline since Regan fired the Air Traffic Controllers and got away with it. 4) Perhaps the time is coming for the pendulum to swing back in labors favor?

1) No surprise there... Most leftys give up easily, which is why they love Big Government, unions, handouts, socialized medicine and state-sponsored retirement. I don't like paying for a safety net for people who are too weak and scared to make their own.

2) Also good. Handouts breed laziness, comtempt and the current plague of entitlement that makes people like me sick. Millions of OTHER Americans don't want it, they're too busy getting it themselves through hard work, self-sacrifice, building a better mousetrap.

3) YOU do some research because you don't know the first damn thing about that situation. Reagan did a brilliant thing. The Union vioated a law prohibiting government worker strikes. The union hoped to disrupt national air travel (endangering millions of travelers and threatening the economy). Instead of the Union calling the shots, Reagan acted completely within his authority by giving a 48-hour ultimatum, and then firing their asses.

4) Perhaps it's time for people to quit looking to the government to be their Mommy. Look at the Big Three and tell me about the direction labor is heading?

Technology is bypassing people, and they're stubbornly refusing to get on board. If a robot can do the job of 100 men, then build the damn robot, retrain those men to maintain the robot, sell the robot, transport the robot and manage the robot... If they won't, hire someone that will. They can go pick lettuce. Piss on the labor unions and their "grab a nipple" mentality - That's why the Big Three are in trouble.

Perhaps giving up IS in your best interest, because your examples are blowing away like chaff in the breeze.

[skylndrftr]

telco its never worth giving up!

Greg, Bill O'Reilly proposed a handout from the oil companies today on the air.

Agree about the robot. Unions did serve a purpose but now they just justify ****ty people.

and on topic, McCain has reached a new and even lower low. He has run an ad calling Obama....wait for it....

The antichristhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mopkn0lPzM8

just as a note...all those references that get made by GOP hacks and whackos the Obama is Muslim...well

1)hes not Muslim

2)The antichrist doesnt refer to Islam...which was founded 400 years after the bible was written.

[heliochrome85]

thats disgusting.

[ishkabibble]

I don't like paying for a safety net for people who are too weak and scared to make their own.

How about too sick? How about people who have multiple bad things happen to them at once? And don't tell me they'll just be able to walk down to their local church and get fixed right up...

Also good. Handouts breed laziness, comtempt and the current plague of entitlement that makes people like me sick. Millions of OTHER Americans don't want it, they're too busy getting it themselves through hard work, self-sacrifice, building a better mousetrap.

Like you say, it works both ways. No handouts for humans? Then no handouts to corporations, also. No corporate welfare, no no-bid contracts, no government-sponsored monopolies or oligopolies, no quasi-governmental agencies, no private industry involvement whatsoever in law or government policy, no bailouts, no "limited liability", no campaign contributions, and all corps get punished just like people do when they break the law.

For all of the people who rail against all entitlements: I sure hope you've never partaken in government-subsidized anything to get where you are today... and no whining when you are denied coverage for a serious medical issue and end up out on the street.

[szh]

Not sad at all. It's spectacular.

It's an end to apathy. It's learning by osmosis. It's bringing politics to the forefront. It's encouraging and beautiful, this engaging in the democratic process.

AND, it's showing the starry-eyed dreamers that politics is a wretched, ugly, nasty (but necessary and wonderful) process.

Good observations! And, that is one thing about this next election that I am hopeful about - that the political apathy in this country will be smashed.

By the way, do you know what I ask when I hear people lambasting government and politicians for all ills?

It is a real simple question: "Did you vote in the last election (if you were eligible)?"

If the answer is "No", then I tell them that they voluntarily gave up their right to complain or moan or praise or discuss politicians, our government, our Leadership, our national policies, etc., etc., etc. I stop arguing and discussing things with them (after telling them why) - gets people infuriated sometimes.

If the answer is "Yes", then they earned the right to do the above complaining and moaning and discussing politics, etc., etc., etc.! And, I will listen to them and argue/discuss/agree appropriately.

Of course, majority rules still applies after elections are done, but the right to discuss and complain afterward is only enabled if they voted. Else, I simply will not listen to their viewpoints.

Often, I ask a follow-on question: "Are you planning to vote in the next election?" If the answer is "No", then I warn them that I will not listen to their praise when things go right, or whines when things go wrong.

Makes for interesting discussions when I am at parties.

Z

[AZhitman]

How about too sick? How about people who have multiple bad things happen to them at once? And don't tell me they'll just be able to walk down to their local church and get fixed right up...

Like you say, it works both ways. No handouts for humans? Then no handouts to corporations, also. No corporate welfare, no no-bid contracts, no government-sponsored monopolies or oligopolies, no quasi-governmental agencies, no private industry involvement whatsoever in law or government policy, no bailouts, no "limited liability", no campaign contributions, and all corps get punished just like people do when they break the law.

For all of the people who rail against all entitlements: I sure hope you've never partaken in government-subsidized anything to get where you are today... and no whining when you are denied coverage for a serious medical issue and end up out on the street.

I see what you mean, and I don't disagree... I think there's a good middle ground somewhere in there.

Crap - wanted to go into more detail, gotta scoot. More later.

[stopcamping]

How about too sick? How about people who have multiple bad things happen to them at once? And don't tell me they'll just be able to walk down to their local church and get fixed right up...

Like you say, it works both ways. No handouts for humans? Then no handouts to corporations, also. No corporate welfare, no no-bid contracts, no government-sponsored monopolies or oligopolies, no quasi-governmental agencies, no private industry involvement whatsoever in law or government policy, no bailouts, no "limited liability", no campaign contributions, and all corps get punished just like people do when they break the law.

For all of the people who rail against all entitlements: I sure hope you've never partaken in government-subsidized anything to get where you are today... and no whining when you are denied coverage for a serious medical issue and end up out on the street.

I just read this post for the first time and I totally agree. It's a two way street. no more cherry picking like so many on the right do!

[stopcamping]

Crap - wanted to go into more detail, gotta scoot. More later.

So where's the follow up post to this, hitman?

[HashiriyaS14]

IT IS NOT A WASTED VOTE

Yes it is.

Every voter is responsible for choosing one alternative out of the available REALISTIC alternatives. Unless a given candidate has the potential to win, a vote for them is simply a vote for whichever major candidate's views run most contrary to theirs on the political spectrum.

A vote today CAN NOT be considered in the light of what it may produce tomorrow, it must be considered solely via it's impact on the election in which it's cast.

The act of voting is the act of choosing whatever alternative you deem to be the least of the available evils. This is often not an easy choice but it is a choice the voter is responsible for making. Approaching voting in any other way is irresponsible and does not provide due appreciation for the impacts of one's vote on society.

Functionally, the United States DOES have a two-party system, as only a party capable of fielding a winning candidate is worthy of consideration. If you want to get the ideals currently embodied by a "third party" into office, work at changing the character of one of the two existing parties. The character of the parties have changed CONSIDERABLY over time.

If you feel that whatever change you want to effect to one of the two major sitting parties is not something that might realistically ever happen, then you need to be willing to consider that your changes are too far outside the mainstream to be implemented in America as it exists today.

[srellim234]

That's exactly the attitude and beliefs that the major two parties want you to fall for. If that, in fact, were true, the Democratic Party and the Grand Old Party (Republican) would not exist today. They were not the original two parties of the United States and grew out of dissatisfaction with the choices available at the time.

The third party and independent voter rolls are growing. They are becoming a true force to be reckoned with, in some states ow representing nearly 30% of the electorate and less than 10% behind one major party or the other. Quite frankly, when I see the corruption associated with both major parties I will not give either one of them the right to claim they represent my beliefs and support for their corruption because I voted for their candidate.

Continue to vote for one of the two parties you are talking about and you will continue to get exactly the poor government we are receiving. They consider, after the election, that every vote for their candidate was a vote for them and their policies. Wrong, but that's the way they operate.

[HashiriyaS14]

Quite frankly, when I see the corruption associated with both major parties I will not give either one of them the right to claim they represent my beliefs and support for their corruption because I voted for their candidate.

Any and all political organizations that get large enough to put a candidate into an office like POTUS will develop corruption automatically. If any of the current third parties rose to dominance, they would be no different than the current majorities. The third parties currently appear to be more focused and "cleaner", but this is because they do not represent as many individuals. As a party takes on more members the viewpoints inherently dull and broaden to satisfy more people.

The only differences between the current parties and the third parties worthy of consideration are differences in policy, and only executable policy need be considered.

Ultimately, no matter what parties are in power, politicians will vote in such a way as to keep their seats, politics will be considered before policy, et cetera. These flaws are not unique to the Democrats and the GOP.

The sooner people recognize the inevitability of the flaws of our system, the sooner they will realize that there is no choice but to work within it.

A new party or two isn't going to fix anything. The solution is to drive the existing parties to the center and keep the extremists on either side from wielding too much influence (i.e. Evangelicals in the GOP or socialists in the Democrats).

[srellim234]

So your solution is stay within the two parties but continue to vote in support of their corruption and lies? If you continue to vote that behavior into office, you will continue to validate that behavior.

It has taken a long time for this country to get where it is, turning over corruption and moving on to new parties every so often. The current situation is a continuation of the cycle. Time to turn it over again.

As for moving to the center, a centrist party is exactly what's needed. Let the Democrats have the far left, the Republicans have the far right and a centrist party have the middle.

[Marenta]

So your solution is stay within the two parties but continue to vote in support of their corruption and lies? If you continue to vote that behavior into office, you will continue to validate that behavior.

It has taken a long time for this country to get where it is, turning over corruption and moving on to new parties every so often. The current situation is a continuation of the cycle. Time to turn it over again.

As for moving to the center, a centrist party is exactly what's needed. Let the Democrats have the far left, the Republicans have the far right and a centrist party have the middle.

Who's to say that the Independent party would stay with their wing? What if they got tired of being between the bread and wanted to be on the outside for once?

Remember, we're a Democratic Republic.. which, turns out I think contains both parties interests, as well as any other party. Just because the Ind party is going centrist doesn't mean they'll stay that way.

[ishkabibble]

The solution is to drive the existing parties to the center

Voting for a third party accomplishes this.