McCain maybe not so perfect

[smockers83]

telco, you're all over the place and avoiding what we're criticizing you for. None of that last post had anything to do with the economy or stock markets. You contradicted yourself because you say that the markets will go up when Bush is out and Obama is in. That would be current and present data. And if you were even right on this, then we could blame the stock market in its current situation that people think Obama will be president because he wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts which include taxes on capital gains & dividends, making stocks less appealing. So, if the stock market was a forecast of the future, Obama being in office would already be in the price of stocks. The presidency and Congress do have some effect on the market in terms of imposing regulation and various taxes, but other than that, its hardly any.

Since we're sort of talking about the economy here...I was on a road trip today by myself and lately I've taken to listening to talk radio instead of just music on these trips. One show I was listening was the Lou Dobbs radio show, but the host was some guy in Philly. He was saying that, according to a CNN poll (and there's nothing scientific about these polls any of the networks do), that 51% of the public think free trade is the biggest threat to our economy and that we need protection. Shall we look back into history? The Great Depression. When the Depression came about, the US jacked up its tariff rates on everything to protect itself. However, all of this made the Depression much worse for us and the rest of the world. But whenever the economy starts going bad, every time people call for protection and that's the last thing we need and would send us into a real depression and not this media-conceived one. There were some other things I wanted to mention but forget, there was another show called the Savage Nation that I've never heard of that made some points I wanted to mention but forget as well.

[AZhitman]

Yes Greg, it was the so called media inaccuracies that exposed how this Republican administration gave the American people a bunch of BS over weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.. It was the media that covered the local NJ women whose husbands were killed on 9/11 demanding a 9/11 commission to investigate our incompetent commander in chief. It was the media that exposed Karl Rove and Scooter Libby for outing Joe Wilson's wife Valerie Plame a CIA operative. Yes it was the media that exposed Larry Craig and his holier than thou anti homosexual rants in that mens room in the Minneapolis airport. Keep listening to that drug addict Rush and Bill Orelly for the latest news. They are sure to keep you well informed! Why not check out Hardball and Keith Olberman on MSNBC tonight and obtain some real factual news for a change?Telcoman

I hope and pray I don't get Alzheimer's as early in life as you have, friend.

WMD argument = old and tired. No one cares. It wasn't all about that, which you'd know if you'd quit relying on TV so much.

9/11 = People weren't killed by the Prez. Those widows need to STFU and realize they're not the only ones who lost loved ones, and blaming anyone but the terrorists is freakin' retarded.

I haven't listened to Rush since 1995.

I don't WATCH television, I'm far too busy doing productive things.

Shall I continue, or are you done digging?

[AZhitman]

smocky, you nailed it.

When ANY administration tries to "manipulate" the economy, bad things happen.

The beauty of it is, it's self-regulating.

NOW - listen closely:

Even though it IS self-regulating, the problem is some people don't like the natural consequences that come about as a result of poor choices. So, they look to the gov't to intervene and "bail" them out of things.

The problem is, this interrupts the natural evolution of supply / demand and interferes with people's natural responses to a difficult market. Anytime you artificially interfere with the economy, as with nature, stuff goes way wrong.

[skylndrftr]

AZ,

I agree that we shouldn't be manipulating, but obviously that would require you to define manipulate. Does that mean no more tax breaks and incentives for comporanies that bring jobs here? No penalties for companies that harm consumers or lie cheat and steal there way to the top?

Do you consider the SEC manipulation? An SEC investigation alone can destroy the reputation and value of a company. Is that manipulation?

[audtatious]

Does that mean no more tax breaks and incentives for comporanies that bring jobs here?

I think we would want to give companies an incentive to bring jobs here instead of imposing high corporate taxes on them. I see that as a viable way to get back some of the lower-level jobs we have lost to other countries.

No penalties for companies that harm consumers or lie cheat and steal there way to the top?

If they break the law then they should be punished. Nobody is saying that corporations should be above the law. They also should not be punished because they make a profit.

Do you consider the SEC manipulation? An SEC investigation alone can destroy the reputation and value of a company. Is that manipulation?

Depends on whether the SEC investigation was due to manipulation by utilizing fraudulent information. If that happens then those who initiated the investigation should be held responsible.

[audtatious]

If you think I am in a low income tax bracket you have another thing coming.

Since I missed this reply..... I made a generalized statement about the majority of those who do not care about tax increases. Your income tax bracket is irrelevant to my statement. Now, if you feel the need to pay more taxes then by all means nobody is stopping you. Just don't reach into my pocket without my permission.

The national debt is completely out of control. Peopel want services, they want roads they want police etc. But they dont' want to pay for it. Everybody looks to other conutries like those in Europe with 'high' taxes but don't ever weigh the benefits of them. To quote McCain "there will be other wars" how are we going to pay for those and continue to cut taxes?

So, we need to turn into Europe because they don't complain about the high tax rates (they also have lower corporate tax rates than we do). Seems one of the reasons we have a United States of America was due to high taxation.

Lower Gov spending. That's the solution. Of course, the next comment will be "then we need to get out of the illegal war that is costing us money" which will be followed in a later thread with "we should not be involved with this illegal war but should instead be helping those in Dafur and other countries because their evil dictators are killing them".....Kinda hypocritacal to denounce getting rid of one evil dictator who was killing his own people in order to go to another continent to do the same thing.

[skylndrftr]

i just happened to refresh and see this before a meeting...

actually it was not being represented, not the taxation rate (that was the whole without representation part).

As for corporate taxes remember that some of the wrost offenders in this country are the coutnries that are more heavily regulated (or don't exist) in Europe.

[audtatious]

I don't care where the actual corporation is from as long as they bring jobs and economic growth to us by physically being here in the states.

[ishkabibble]

The ONLY difference is, you strongly believe in choice (on one hand) and government control (on the other).

They're both personal choices, both protected by the Constitution, whether you (or I) agree with them or not.

I strongly believe in choice for some issues, and government control for others.

[AZhitman]

Of course you do.

[ishkabibble]

Words like "fairly" and "pretty" lead me to believe you're not convinced yourself.

Short-term gains are irrelevant - You of all people know this. Dollar-cost averaging is your best friend in a market like this.

Well, I'm not entirely convinced. I've only been "very long term" investing for 3 years, and "normal" investing for 1.5. There is value in any market, but it's much easier to find in some markets than others. I have a feeling there is going to be a lot of value in the next few years as certain sectors bottom out. But right now, I'm still on the doom and gloom bandwagon. I'll buy back in when there are some indictments over the mortgage mess.

[skylndrftr]

I don't care where the actual corporation is from as long as they bring jobs and economic growth to us by physically being here in the states.

Like Halliburton?

2007 revenue: $15.3 Billion US2007 tax liability: $15 Million US(thats approximately .1% if yoru counting)

Number of soldiers killed in Iraq due to faulty wiring: 12contractor controlling/buildign/maintaining almost all military military housign in iraq: KBR a Halliburton subsidiary

[AZhitman]

Well, I'm not entirely convinced. I've only been "very long term" investing for 3 years, and "normal" investing for 1.5. There is value in any market, but it's much easier to find in some markets than others. I have a feeling there is going to be a lot of value in the next few years as certain sectors bottom out. But right now, I'm still on the doom and gloom bandwagon. I'll buy back in when there are some indictments over the mortgage mess.

I feel ya there. Don't steer TOO clear, though - there's still money to be made in this market... Even if it's in CD's or money market accounts.

However, let's not completely absolve the consumer of some of the blame. While no-doc loans, ARMs, and over-financing were certainly the tools used to create this mess, the mortgage holder is ultimately the one who signed the documents.

Too stupid to read? Don't buy a house.

This is no different than the "Rent-a-Wheel" places, title buyback, or "payday loan" places I see springing up like weeds....

"Can't afford balla wheels on your Tahoe? No fly crib to party in? We can help!"

The victims and the hucksters share equal blame.

[szh]

However, let's not completely absolve the consumer of some of the blame. While no-doc loans, ARMs, and over-financing were certainly the tools used to create this mess, the mortgage holder is ultimately the one who signed the documents.

Too stupid to read? Don't buy a house.

The victims and the hucksters share equal blame.

Entirely true!!

I bought my current house 9 years ago at a fixed rate that we could afford (30 year 7% fixed at the time) and have re-financed twice in that intervening period. Both times, I picked fixed rates and reduced the interest rates.

Right now, for a 15 year mortgage, I am paying a fixed 4.75% (found the right bottom some years back! ). However, we kept paying as if the interest were still the original 7% (if we could afford it then, we can afford it now, right?). So, our equity is now close to 75% ... would be higher, but the house value has dropped a bit - due to other idiots actions!

Anyway, these decisions were for my wife and I to carefully consider each time, and we made them ourselves. No deferring the responsibility to others in any way, shape or form. No blame for problems either - my last house had problems with negative equity for years till we got it paid down over time, and I did not blame others for it.

After the last refinance some years back, we were bombarded by the "come-hither" flyers for ultra-low "teaser" rates. They continually looked suspicious to us, so, we never bothered to follow up on them. Luckily.

The point of this long post is: Our choice, our decisions, our responsibility, our actions. Like I refuse to give credit to the mortgage companies for our current good fortune (in doing the right thing), if we had screwed up, I would not blame them for it either!

Where has the responsibility and accountability for our decisions and actions gone to?

Z

[AZhitman]

Where has the responsibility and accountability for our decisions and actions gone to?

Z

That alone may be the defining difference between the "left" and the "right".

Personal responsibility for one's continued well-being and accountability for one's actions.

[skylndrftr]

yeah exactly like giving yourself credit for passing a support the troops bill that you opposed and threatened to veto.

[audtatious]

Like Halliburton?

2007 revenue: $15.3 Billion US2007 tax liability: $15 Million US(thats approximately .1% if yoru counting)

Number of soldiers killed in Iraq due to faulty wiring: 12contractor controlling/buildign/maintaining almost all military military housign in iraq: KBR a Halliburton subsidiary

So, what is your point? The US gov should run all corporations out of the US and take over their factories and businesses because the way they run things is a shining example of excellence?

[skylndrftr]

thats a terrible example. the reason the government is terrible at these things is because the people in government who don't want the government in their business (republicans) willfully use the government to forward their own ideals as opposed to ehlping the people.

The government should not be running everything, however they should be running the things that are necessary for the country to function...like energy.

I don't know where you got that from though I was simply commenting on your statement that you wanted the companies 'here'. I don't thin kwe should be farming out out defense contracts to people who A) Kill american soldiers

and

B) make such obvious use of tax shelters that they pay .1% interest in the country most of their business comes from.

[AZhitman]

use the government to forward their own ideals as opposed to ehlping the people.

running the things that are necessary for the country to function...like energy.

make such obvious use of tax shelters that they pay .1% interest in the country most of their business comes from.

Ummm, news flash: The government doesn't exist to HELP PEOPLE. People need to help themselves. That's another key ideological difference.

You want the gov't to RUN a power plant? Hell, they can't even OVERSEE one! (Case in point: The NRC)

So, you'd prefer they make LESS obvious use of tax shelters? Like sneaking around? Like Enron?

And the tax laws are on the books for a reason. Nothing illegal about paying less taxes.

[audtatious]

thats a terrible example. the reason the government is terrible at these things is because the people in government who don't want the government in their business (republicans) willfully use the government to forward their own ideals as opposed to ehlping the people.

The government should not be running everything, however they should be running the things that are necessary for the country to function...like energy.

I don't know where you got that from though I was simply commenting on your statement that you wanted the companies 'here'. I don't thin kwe should be farming out out defense contracts to people who A) Kill american soldiers

and

B) make such obvious use of tax shelters that they pay .1% interest in the country most of their business comes from.

I prefer to have businesses here in the US instead of moving over seas where they have less taxes and less penalties. Corporations staying in the US with their factories or infrastructure help "the people" by providing jobs and more opportunity. Increasing taxes and penalizing corporations because they make a profit will simply cause them to shift into a decentralized market like we see now with IT/help desk support coming from India and factories moving to other countries instead of the US. Corporations and business is in place to make money for themselves and their shareholders so they will do what is necessary to keep their profit margins regardless of those who believe corporations are here to give people employment.

Now, you bring up Haliburton out of nowhere when I was talking in generalities. Haliburton has been in Iraq for 5 years and there has been 12 deaths based on faulty wiring they were responsible for I guess, is that what you were documenting? Why, that's not too bad of a record when you look at other industries as a whole. Let's look at some others for one year alone:

Fishers and Fishing Workers: Deaths per 100,000 workers: 142Pilots and Flight Engineers: Deaths per 100,000 workers: 88Loggers: Deaths per 100,000 workers: 82Iron and Steel Workers: Deaths per 100,000 workers: 61Refuse and Recyclable Material Collectors: Deaths per 100,000 workers: 42

Of the 5,703 fatal work injuries last year, 5,202 occurred in private industry.

So, 12 seems to be a small number. Again, other than them paying less taxes I have no idea where you are going with focusing on Haliburton when I was talking about corporations as a whole.

[skylndrftr]

I disagree AZ. The government does exist to help people. People need to help themselves, true, but the government needs to help them as well. Without government 'help' we wouldn't have a lot of things in this country. Private industry didnt build the interstate system, private industry didnt take us to the moon (they did help though).

Yes there are laws on the book and they should be followed, Enron is an example of a company not following those laws. Unfortunately lots of people who broke no law paid the price and the people who did paid very little.

True nothign illegal about paying taxes, but a company that is making $15 billion dolalrs a year on government contracts should be paying taxes here. Kinda like the tanker deal

audtatious,

Those people dies doing their jobs. I think this is slightly different. 12 US soldiers killed by the same thing would make news if it was a bomb. Why not when they are killed by a defense contractor? These guys didnt work in the defense contracting industry they didnt work for halliburton. They were killed by negligence of a defense contractor who has been given no incentive to fix the problem and continues to be awarded government contracts while paying little or no taxes here. If this happens in the US the families can at least sue them...but not when it happens in Iraq.

[smockers83]

The interstate system wasn't built to help people, it was built to create an infrastructure for better, faster interstate commerce and national defense. Almost all roads are determined by some level of government.

The more a government moves to a role of helping people, the more it becomes a socialist government.

[audtatious]

audtatious,

Those people dies doing their jobs. I think this is slightly different. 12 US soldiers killed by the same thing would make news if it was a bomb. Why not when they are killed by a defense contractor? These guys didnt work in the defense contracting industry they didnt work for halliburton. They were killed by negligence of a defense contractor who has been given no incentive to fix the problem and continues to be awarded government contracts while paying little or no taxes here. If this happens in the US the families can at least sue them...but not when it happens in Iraq.

Why not air out when someone in the military makes a mistake that takes lives? Do you think that number would be higher than 12?

You are trying to make a point about Haliburton as a slap against the current Administration. 12 accidental deaths is horrible but that is a low number based on the number of years in Iraq and how delicate the situation is over there. There is no guarantee accidents of this nature would not have happened should another company be over there.

Now as far as contracts, what other companies are capable of handling the situation like Haliburton? Not many if any others at all. Sure, the Gov could contract out to 20-50 individual companies to do parts of the operation but the administrative requirements to manage that many companies and individually assigned tasks would be huge and cost more money as a whole. I do admint that I have not looked into Haliburtons Iraq duties nor the tax issue you are touting so other than opinion there is not going to be much debate as I don't have time nor the initiative to look up counters to your claims.

[AZhitman]

The interstate system wasn't built to help people, it was built to create an infrastructure for better, faster interstate commerce and national defense. Almost all roads are determined by some level of government.

The more a government moves to a role of helping people, the more it becomes a socialist government.

Stealing my thoughts again?

Telco, I need to borrow your tinfoil hat. Smocky's in my head.

[smockers83]

Scary isn't it? If one of us runs for president or something, running mates...we'd always be on the same page, same ideas for the most part. Although it is true, look at Europe. Why do we call it socialized welfare, health care, medicine, social security?

[smockers83]

AZ,

I agree that we shouldn't be manipulating, but obviously that would require you to define manipulate. Does that mean no more tax breaks and incentives for comporanies that bring jobs here? No penalties for companies that harm consumers or lie cheat and steal there way to the top?

Do you consider the SEC manipulation? An SEC investigation alone can destroy the reputation and value of a company. Is that manipulation?

Giving tax breaks to those who keep jobs here or bring jobs back, under explicit definition of manipulation, is manipulating the economy. This is because those jobs were lost due to free trade and capital movement. But these tax breaks are used as a short run "fix" to keep people's jobs, however these jobs will disappear later on so what good do they do? These people who lost jobs would be better served getting training for jobs that will stay here, will benefit our economy, trade, and those overseas as well.

Is SEC investigating a company manipulation? Far from it. If a company is doing something illegal, then yes they need to be reprimanded for it by all means. Same goes for those who lie and cheat to get to the top.

Manipulation comes in the forms of certain tax breaks, tariffs, quotas, trade preferences, etc etc.

[audtatious]

Giving tax breaks to those who keep jobs here or bring jobs back, under explicit definition of manipulation, is manipulating the economy. This is because those jobs were lost due to free trade and capital movement. But these tax breaks are used as a short run "fix" to keep people's jobs, however these jobs will disappear later on so what good do they do? These people who lost jobs would be better served getting training for jobs that will stay here, will benefit our economy, trade, and those overseas as well..

One problem we have here is that people who get these factory jobs simply settle for the lifestyle. These are jobs that are really non-tech in nature so when the factories close down then people are screwed because they never invested more into furthering their education. Of course, educational programs can only go so far in small-town USA due to lack of those jobs. We need to have more than just additional avenues of education to help stimulate the US as a whole. Education programs is definitly a great step forward.