Max safe temp

[dhen]

I looked in the service manual and I didn't find this. I had a leak from the side of the block, I believe from the head gasket, and when I got home I was down 3/4 gallon on coolant and my temp gauge was at 230 F. I know this isn't enough to kill the engine, but I don't know if the coolant was below the gauge and the engine was actually hotter. (My gauge is at the outlet at the back of the block, passenger side, near the head.

It started to cool down pretty quickly when I stopped and sounds fine.

Thanks

[Izento]

Well, water boils at 212 and with the circulation motion, we can assume that the water isn't actually boiling at this point, but it's getting really damn close. So taking that into account, I would shut the engine off at boiling point, which would make the water boil because of lack of circular motion. Anything after that and you're really toasting it!

[dhen]

I'll find out when I pull the head...

[mdb4879]

It'd take quite a bit more than 212 to hurt a motor. When under pressure the coolant won't boil at it's normal temperature. But either way it'd probably take 300+ degrees to hurt a motor just from heat alone. What warps heads is uneven heating and cooling. If you get low on coolant and it overheats, let it cool down on it's own. If you pour cool water into the radiator it could warp or crack the head when it begins to circulate. When you get extremely low on coolant I could see the opposite effect of having the places where there are air bubbles heating faster and causing the same problem. But probably not as prominent. But 230 degrees shouldn't hurt anything on it's own.

[dhen]

I finally got the head off and I had a blown head gasket. Fortunately it blew to the outside, not the cylinders. I think the cylinders look great.





The blown gasket was near my temp gauge, so it's possible it was reading high.

On the downside I managed to bend two of my head studs and gouge the head. Don't ask. Nothing that can't be fixed, but it sucks to break stuff.

Thanks

[float_6969]

There's more to that picture than what you're seeing. The HG blew because it deformed from the cylinder pressure. It deformed because there wasn't enough clamping pressure to hold the gasket in place on that cylinder. That comes from either the head bolts being loose, or warpage. You need to check the head and block to make sure they're both perfectly flat. I have a bad feeling you have a warped head/block. Also, I found out the hard way too that you HAVE to remove the head studs to get the head off. Trying to pull it with them still in place is next to impossible.

[dhen]

Thanks, Ryan.
I'm going to get the head resurfaced. Do iron blocks ever deform on the top? I plan on checking the top of the block with a right angle, but I wasn't planning on pulling the engine.

It's a long story, but I think I might know what I did wring with the head gasket.

[float_6969]

Yes, it's possible for the block to deform.

[boost_boy]

Your block's deck is fine. Your head was not securely fastened to the block which caused your headgasket to get compromised. Get your head checked for flatness, a fresh headgasket and most importantly, please secure those head studs correctly. I bet you any kind of money the studs were loose which happens a lot when new head stud users fail to secure them properly. If the head needs resurfacing. so be it.

[dhen]

OK, thanks for letting me know. I think I might have bent the head slightly when I pulled the engine the last time (long story), but a bad install is certainly possible. It wasn't leaking the first time it was in, but there was a leak when it went back in. I sealed it with sodium silicate and it worked for a while then failed last weekend. At least it was nice enough to do it when I was home and not 200 miles away...

As luck would have it, I was able to get a set of head studs last night for $65. Just a heads up before someone else gets it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111502002994?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

BTW, does anyone have an opinion on using copper spray? I've never done it to a CA.

[float_6969]

I've done it on a stock HG, but I've also used a FelPro with nothing at least 3 times and never had an issue with it sealing.

[dhen]

Update:

OK, I apologize that this is long, but I honestly don't know what I did wrong and really want to know what to do to fix it.

I changed the head gasket. I have done this a couple of times before. Coolant is now coming into the #4 cylinder.

Here is what I know:

* This time I used a Beck Arnley head gasket. It was made in Japan. I haven't used this brand before.

* I used copper sealant and new ARP head studs. I tightened them per instructions on the box. I did not retorque after I ran the engine the first time. I have done this before and it worked.

* I've only driven the car about 10 miles. I was testing it out tonight and it seemed to lack power and was running bad. I got it home and noticed that there was a lot of steam coming out of the back. I pulled the spark plugs and #4 was wet. Put them back on, fired it up for 30 seconds, and pulled #4 again. It was wet and steam was coming out of the cylinder.

* I noticed steam the first time I fired up the engine but figured this was from coolant that spilled into the exhaust pipe.

* The engine fires up immediately. This tells me that the coolant is leaking only when the engine is running. Maybe it has to heat up to leak?

* There is some oil in the coolant. I got oil into the coolant passages on the block when I pulled the head. I figured this was where the oil came from. I was going to flush it this weekend.

* Oil pressure is excellent. I haven't noticed any water in the oil.

* The #4 cylinder is where the leak was before.

* I had the head resurfaced, but not the block.

* I tore out the butterflies in the intake and added a couple of vacuum ports when the intake was off. I don't know why this would matter, but I thought I should mention it.

Here is a video from when I got home. I think the whining sound is a brand new timing belt I installed too tight. It is 65 degrees outside, so the steam isn't from the cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bjxCzL ... e=youtu.be

If you were me, what would you do? Should I just retorque the head, use some sodium silicate, and hope for the best? Or would it be smarter to do yet another tear down since this appears to be leaking from the same place as last time?

[mdb4879]

I would doubt it, but what's everyone's opinion that his head is cracked?

When you pull the radiator cap does the coolant bubble like crazy, especially if you rev the motor?

Also, try checking the torque just to be sure, but I wouldn't think it would've come this loose this fast. You said you didn't have loosening issues before from a single torque and neither did I after 11,000 miles.

[dhen]

I'd be very surprised if the head was cracked. Anything is possible, but I had it resurfaced.

I torqued it to 80 PSI, which is what ARP says. I've been trying to figure out all day what I did wrong and I found this old thread where Dee said to torque it to 86 PSI. I'm going to try that out and see what happens:

to-all-you-arp-head-stud-users-t171021.html

I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks

[mdb4879]

The only reason you'd have to torque them more is if you're having a problem with them loosening because they weren't achieving the proper stretch. Since most people don't have that problem at 80ft/lbs I wouldn't risk snapping a stud. Check your torque first, then if you feel you're having a loosening issue try overtorqueing to Dee's 86ft/lbs. Be very careful and try to feel if the studs are stretching and not holding the torque. If they are, go ahead and back off the nut.

[float_6969]

I would start with re-torquing them. I've had mine loosen up on me. If it still leaks, you're probably going to have to have the block deck re-surfaced.

[dhen]

Well, I torqued it down to 86 PSI. It fixed it - for a while. Idled great and ran great. After a couple of minutes on the highway it was running rough. No steam because when I pulled the spark plugs there was so much water in there it wasn't firing anymore. (I soaked it up by shoving pieces of shop towels in there.)

Sooo, the head is definitely coming off. Again. I need to find out what's going on with this thing. I think that the block was slightly off before, and got worse when I overheated it a little. It's at the point now where I have to take it to the machinist and see what happens there.

I'll post an update when I get it open if anyone is curious.

The ghost of my MGA strikes again. I'm going to do a 50/50 water/meth injection system with holy water mixed in to try to perform a mechanical exorcism.

[silvios]

Any update on this issue?

[dhen]

Yes, there is a hairline somewhere in either the block or the head. It's blown two head gaskets in the same place. It only leaks when hot, so a couple of experienced people I talked to said I should get a new block and head. I bought a used natural aspirated core. I will eventually transfer over the turbo internal parts to this engine, but so far it's been OK.

[float_6969]

You got the block deck resurfaced to make sure it wasn't warped?

[dhen]

I didn't get the block decked. It's a very small leak and a very knowledgeable friend of mine said it would be better to start from scratch. I plan on taking all the internals from one and putting them into the other.

[float_6969]

Hmm, just seems kinda wasteful to me. I would be very surprised if anything is actually cracked. In the 15 years I've been on NICO and CA's, I've never heard of a cracked head/block. Even with consecutive, abusive over-heating. One guy I'm thinking of overheated it like 3 times. It finally wouldn't start anymore because the compression was so low because the HG was just completely blown out. He decked the head and block and it was fine. Any competent machine shop should have no issues pressure testing the block and head. Or are you trying to avoid the machine shop for some reason? Even swapping parts over, you're going to have to have all of your clearances checked again, so unless you have the tools for it, it's still going to have to go to the shop. The money you're going to spend on another engine will likely cover getting the block deck resurfaced.

[dhen]

I'm not throwing anything away, so I may have the original block decked at some point. I didn't want to deck it, pay to have it reassembled, only to find out the leak was still there. I got this engine very cheap, so this way I have spares.

[float_6969]

That's my point though, any competent machine shop should be able to pressure test and magnaflux the block and head to ensure there are no cracks.

[dhen]

What I was told was that if the crack is very small and only viable when hot, it can be hard to find. It's also possible that decking it would have solved the problem. I forgot to mention that the cylinder got water in it and needs a hone.

One day I may go back and see, but for now I'm happy I found a good spare.

[float_6969]

Yea, I was mostly mentioning it for future reference for others searching the forums later.