Lowering and Camber

[Haitian_King]

During one of my frequent periods of boredom at work, I decided to research camber and try to understand exactly what it is. During my reading, I came upon this little tidbit that I felt may be a little helpful. I always read about members lowering the cars with springs, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone add that they made other modifications to the suspension setup at the same time.

In older cars with double wishbone suspensions, camber angle was usually adjustable, but in newer models with McPherson strut suspensions, it is normally fixed. While this may reduce maintenance requirements, if the car is lowered by use of shortened springs, this changes the camber angle (as described in McPherson strut) and can lead to increased tire wear and impaired handling. For this reason, individuals who are serious about modifying their car for better handling will not only lower the body, but also modify the mounting point of the top of the struts to the body to allow some fore/aft movement for camber adjustment. Aftermarket plates with slots for strut mounts instead of just holes are available for most of the commonly modified models of cars.

I never realized the impact lowering springs made on the vehicle other than fendergap reduction and giving the vehicle a lower center of gravity. The lower center of gravity I thought was to improve handling, but from the reading, it seems that if the proper adjustments aren't made to the struts after the addition of lowering springs, performance will actually "decrease" and results in increased tire wear.

Just thought it was interesting and possibly helpful.

[burgy240]

Yes, but from what I've been told, the use of S14 adjustable rear Upper control arms will fix that on a Y33. Camber plates do the job up front as well.... Of course that depends on HOW low you go. Just an FYI

[Haitian_King]

What about G50's?

[96Qowner]

You can use SPL adjustable upper links for the G50. Even then, the front suspension geometry will still be screwed up. Lowering doesn't "improve" handling, unfortunately, only looks - although it will change ride feel, and some will prefer it.

[PANCAKES1]

CAMBER IS FUN!!!! AND LOOKS SICKKKK!!!!+ it confuses people cause they think something is wrong w/ your car! Hahahahaha!



BUT BEWARE!!!!!!!!!! IT WILL COST YOU TIRES!!!!

[maxnix]

CAMBER IS FUN!!!! AND LOOKS SICKKKK!!!!+ it confuses people cause they think something is wrong w/ your car! Hahahahaha!

BUT BEWARE!!!!!!!!!! IT WILL COST YOU TIRES!!!!

Very Impaired Performance decisions are usually not the best way to maximize vehicle performance.

That is why people are laughing.

[maxnix]

You can use SPL adjustable upper links for the G50.

Don't use cheap Chinese knock-offs as they will not last.

[superuber]

Very Impaired Performance decisions are usually not the best way to maximize vehicle performance.

That is why people are laughing.

[Q45tech]

The problem with fixing camber by extending the upper arm 1/8" per degree is that you only fix static camber. Lowering moves the static point down on the camber curve.

Research " camber curve"

Lowering moves the toe curve because the steering rack and tie road are no longer prallel to road [the rack is lower].

Research " bump steer"

All in all lowering even with corrective measures usually does more harm than good because you cannot change the height of attachment points on the body even with expensive pseudo arms and fixes.

Eibach was very careful to just drop 1.0-0.8" to find a somewhat happy medium stll they changed the camber by 0.83-0.664 degrees.

http://www.atomicperformance.c...D=547http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/tutorial02.htmhttp://www.bevenyoung.com.au/tutorials.htmhttp://www.7builder.com/Suspen....html

People that sell excessive lowering springs are primarily interested in your money. Not the fact that buy their $300 product can cost you a thousand to fix and return to anywhere near oem handling.

"The key point is that as a MacPherson strut suspension is lowered, the length of this lever arm increases. Just compare A1 to A2 in the figure above. Thus even though the car is lower, it will have a greater tendency towards roll. This is not what many people expect when they lower a car"http://e46m3performance.com/tech/transfer/pg-2.htm

[Haitian_King]

I'd like to go the VIP route, but stick to the more conservative "Executive" aspect. I want a President that looks fit for a Tokyo CEO or Yakuza boss. Elegant aero kit, nice wheels with a fair amount of lip, (zero camber preferred) and privacy glass are what I'm looking to add.

[PANCAKES1]

Very Impaired Performance decisions are usually not the best way to maximize vehicle performance.

That is why people are laughing.

Hahahahaha! Clever!

OH yea........ I forgot race cars lower there cars only for looks! Hahahahaha! But My performance seems to be 1000X better than stock!And I'm not tryna drift the damn thang! Just tryna have a nice whip I can cruise in......

But it's coo Y'all that want to hate keep it up cause that's what makes me want to do what I do harder!

[Q45tech]

As I keep pointing out I've had Eibach's on my Q since 1993.Eventually I fixed camber with shims and front toe/bump steer with tie rod end extensions. I've never fixed the rear bump steer as it gets complicated and is not very severe with just 0.8" rear lowering SINCE that would be the same as a SINGLE 200 pounder sitting in rear seat............something the factory considered in advance.

I'll bet they designed for 2 - 150 pounders plus briefcases in rear.

[the_sauce]

But it's coo Y'all that want to hate keep it up cause that's what makes me want to do what I do harder!

YESSIR!

I still cant figure out why DTM cars and F1 cars have negative camber...

[Haitian_King]

Sorry for asking, but what's DTM?

Yeah, the F1 cars have negative camber, but they do have quite a different body shape and suspension than your convential luxury sedan. And plus, they need the extra stability in cornering when they're doing 180.

[PANCAKES1]

DTM is the Euro tunning market

It may or may not increase performance but VIPstyle cars add camber to fit wider wheels, limiting the amount of fender mods..........

We're not tryna drag race, drift or go on a circuit!We jus want to roll in nice cars.................but the V8 doesn't make it bad when it comes to traffic!

[Qproject]

in case you haven't noticed, VIPCAR's are not meant to corner turns, drag race, or go off roading.

it's pure show, real low and real slow. and also, tire wear is the LEAST of our concern.

[TBrack]

tire wear is the LEAST of our concern.

gotta pay to play! which is why I can't play at this point in life

[Haitian_King]

I get what you're saying, but to the uninitiated, the rear negative camber on a sedan as big as a Q looks weird. Looking at your action shot in your sig, the wheels loook fantastic on the front. Very nice. But once the eye lands on the rear, it's like "Whoa, that looks quite unsafe and possibly damaged." You know?

[Haitian_King]

in case you haven't noticed, VIPCAR's are not meant to corner turns, drag race, or go off roading.

it's pure show, real low and real slow. and also, tire wear is the LEAST of our concern.

There's nothing like being underestimated at a light, and then outperforming the other car. I wonder what a cambered burnout looks like.

[PANCAKES1]

I get what you're saying, but to the uninitiated, the rear negative camber on a sedan as big as a Q looks weird. Looking at your action shot in your sig, the wheels loook fantastic on the front. Very nice. But once the eye lands on the rear, it's like "Whoa, that looks quite unsafe and possibly damaged." You know?

Nope I don't know!Camber to me looks down right sick! PERIOD!!!!!of course the fitment has to be there as well!

[PANCAKES1]

There's nothing like being underestimated at a light, and then outperforming the other car. I wonder what a cambered burnout looks like.

That's why we have V8sbut your ballin, cause gas aint cheap on these cars!

There's also nothing like intimidnating someone at a light being as low as you are, having everyones attention (especially dudes gurls who get wet over your ride! ) and still be able to run w/ the best of them!

Besides you don't prove **** by being faster than the next man!It don't get you more money and it won't get you any gurls!

I never got why you have to race to prove you top ****! I aint tryna F*** you so why would I care how fast you are, besides it aint my **** when it breaks!

[Haitian_King]

That's why we have V8sbut your ballin, cause gas aint cheap on these cars!

There's also nothing like intimidnating someone at a light being as low as you are, having everyones attention (especially dudes gurls who get wet over your ride! ) and still be able to run w/ the best of them!

Besides you don't prove **** by being faster than the next man!It don't get you more money and it won't get you any gurls!

I never got why you have to race to prove you top ****! I aint tryna F*** you so why would I care how fast you are, besides it aint my **** when it breaks!

Well, no one likes to lose.

I hate letting someone go with the feeling that they bested me. I have an ego problem. That, and I like to drive fast.

But doesn't being that low cause trouble? Potholes and speed bumps don't damage your underside?

My car was never really what I based my ability to "get girls" with. Ladies loved me when I was driving a '94 Grand Cherokee with a cracked rear bumper.

But hey, it's your car, and everyon'e entitled to their opinion.

[Haitian_King]

Nope I don't know!Camber to me looks down right sick! PERIOD!!!!!of course the fitment has to be there as well!

And that's my cue. Obstinacy irritates me. I'm done.

Guess it's a Cali thing. FR cars have a hard enough time driving in wet conditions and snow. Excessive camber would be a death sentence out here during the winter. Not to mention, it would seriously hinder the ability to pass the bi-annual NJ state inspection.

[Qproject]

again, VIPCAR's don't do burn outs at the light, we don't race.

VIPCAR's strike a pose on the street, low and slow. do u understand that concept ?

as for damaging out bodykits, we have thing thing called a "AIR SUSPENSION", at the flick of a switch we can go over any obstacle your cherokee can.

Well, no one likes to lose.

I hate letting someone go with the feeling that they bested me. I have an ego problem. That, and I like to drive fast.

But doesn't being that low cause trouble? Potholes and speed bumps don't damage your underside?

My car was never really what I based my ability to "get girls" with. Ladies loved me when I was driving a '94 Grand Cherokee with a cracked rear bumper.

But hey, it's your car, and everyon'e entitled to their opinion.

[Haitian_King]

again, VIPCAR's don't do burn outs at the light, we don't race.

VIPCAR's strike a pose on the street, low and slow. do u understand that concept ?

as for damaging out bodykits, we have thing thing called a "AIR SUSPENSION", at the flick of a switch we can go over any obstacle your cherokee can.

The point of having a powerful V8 engine capable of delivering tire-shredding torque factors how? Low and slow? How is this any different to the "low-rider" culture?

Guess it's one of those things the East Coast part of me just can't understand.

[PANCAKES1]

Well, no one likes to lose.

I hate letting someone go with the feeling that they bested me. I have an ego problem. That, and I like to drive fast.

But doesn't being that low cause trouble? Potholes and speed bumps don't damage your underside?

My car was never really what I based my ability to "get girls" with. Ladies loved me when I was driving a '94 Grand Cherokee with a cracked rear bumper.

But hey, it's your car, and everyon'e entitled to their opinion.

I can't help you there.......

Being low actually makes you a more aware driver! Because you have to pay more attention to the road conditions for potholes, dips, and etc.You also have to pay more attention to the car infront of you to see the cars reaction to the road.......

I've been w/ my chick before I even had a car and license, using a car to get chicks was never a goal for me ither, I jus used that example because most guys fix up cars to get gurls! I do it jus for the artistic side of turning something plain and ordinar into beauty and art!

[PANCAKES1]

And that's my cue. Obstinacy irritates me. I'm done.

Guess it's a Cali thing. FR cars have a hard enough time driving in wet conditions and snow. Excessive camber would be a death sentence out here during the winter. Not to mention, it would seriously hinder the ability to pass the bi-annual NJ state inspection.

It never snows here so that's never a problem! And when it does rain, my car actually rides better! I heard about you guys having some tough driving laws!SUX!!!!

[TBrack]

I think it's best if we leave our VIP stuff at VSC, there is no convincing anyone here of anything, they are too hard headed when it comes to something out of the ordinary.

[PANCAKES1]

The point of having a powerful V8 engine capable of delivering tire-shredding torque factors how? Low and slow? How is this any different to the "low-rider" culture?

Guess it's one of those things the East Coast part of me just can't understand.

Airbags don't let you get over everything but they do help!

It's not that much different than low-riders, fitment is jus better and cars look more sophisticated.........

Because you have a V8 doesn't me you should always be on the gas!It jus makes it better when you need to go! I could have swore speeding is illegal!!!!!

Besides these cars weigh a ton so in the end you burning alot of gas and not really going as fast as you could......

BTW-SRTs will kill a Q45!

[PANCAKES1]

I think it's best if we leave our VIP stuff at VSC, there is no convincing anyone here of anything, they are too hard headed when it comes to something out of the ordinary.

Yea I figured that when I first posted!I jus wanted to humor the reaction of my car while VSC was down!Also thought a little that I would get respect from fellow Q45 owners!Didn't know VIP was so tabo! hahahahaha! I LIKE IT EVEN MORE!