Loud lifters as temperature rises. Need explanation.

[Darius]

I just installed my Ferrea valves with Tomei springs and HKS cams on my stock hydraulic lifters. I have a Tomei oil orifice and have blocked the front oil supply orifice to the head. When I start the engine, it sounds smooth. But as I let it idle for a while and warm up, the lifters get increasingly loud. tickity-tickity...Does anybody have an explanation for this? I'm currently running dino-oil 10W-30 and haven't switched to synthetic yet. I'm afraid to drive it when it sounds like this.

Could my lifters need bleeding? They sound okay when I first start it up.Any ideas?

[Shocker]

very interesting.... normally you get the tick when you first start it up and it goes away as your drive it from increased oil pressure...

Id say drive it, and see if it goes away, also you have an n1 pump dont you? You have an oil pressure gauge too?

[krayton]

sounds really wierd that it comes on when it warms up....

i guess try running some thicker oil.

but if it is the lifters, narrow it down and change em out. pain in the butt, but they are only 11 a pop

[Shocker]

yeah its just removing the timing belt, valve covers, cams, cam gears... annoying eh?

[Darius]

$hit. It would only be the 50th time I've done it so no biggy as long as I don't have to pull the head. I am going to try to run some thicker oil to see what happens first since it's the cheapest and easiest route right now. What weight do you recommend?

Like you said Shocker, my lifters were loud initially then quieted down after the oil pressure built up in them. Took a few minutes, but eventually it ran smooth. Now it is the exact opposite. Weird.

Could a coolant problem or lack of flow in the head be causing this?

[themadscientist]

Are the valves perhaps just a hair shorter then stock? That would mean the lifter would have to expand a little more to make up the difference and possibly start to tick a bit. If all you changed was the valves then the problem showed up I would expect they were at least the initiating force behind the chain of events that are causing this noise.

[krayton]

well wierd thing, i had loud lifters, went to lighter oil and it went away.

either way for us, this is usually a bandaid. but if u wanna just try it, id say go for 20-50. i used that weight for my whole last track year and didnt have a problem

they also have lifter cleaning additive stuff. warm up your car, throw it in, and its suppose to clean em. didnt work for me, but you might have some luck. 7 bucks for a bottle at pepboys or somewhere

ps: did u narrow it down to a few? or are they all of em? i did a screw driver to valve covers to find it was just intake side number 6

[Darius]

I had the valves cut to the length specified in the FSM, so I'm assuming they were all the same length. I didn't measure all of them. If the valves were too short, then they would always make a ticking sound due to the slack between the lifter and cam, right?

It isn't all of the valves but it's pretty extensive. It is mostly concentrated towards the middle to rear of the block on both IN and EX sides. I did not bleed the lifters before installing them since I haven't really had a big issue with getting them to bleed before.

[Darius]

I talked to ISUJinX who has a ton of experience with domestic motor rebuilds and he said that assembly lube thins your oil out and that could be causing my problem. I'm going to change my oil tonight and let you know what happens.

[Darius]

Changed the oil to 10W-40 last night and it helped quite a bit, but not to my satisfaction to drive it. The ticking noise didn't come on as strong or until the temperature rose above 70C this time. My thermostat is an 84-degree Z32 Thermostat, so that kind of sucks when the noise occurs at temps above 70C.

Should I put 20W-50 oil in it?Should I install a cooler running thermostat?Should I pull it all apart to try to bleed the lifters better?? (seems like they are normal and quiet for the first few minutes)

[Shocker]

I feel bad for you and this problem I am honestly stumped.

I use 10w 30 in my 25 with no issues. Not sure if you wanted to try that. Talk to someone who is very familliar with hydro lifters, there has to be an explantation.

[krayton]

i think the oil is just a bandaid.

rip into it and change em. i say change em cause they are 11 a pop to bleed em you gotta crawl all the way in there. reading the fsm theres a special way u have to deal with them, so they might be plugged from the rebuild.

your call though, i vote either bleed or change em

[Bluefire]

How do you guys plan on bleeding them... As for as i know you can't hand bleed them like sr lifters. The hole on top is way to tiny to fit a strong enough rod in there to squeeze the lifter. Anyways... i would try and run a bottle of marvel mystery oil (detergent oil) this will help clean out possible dirty lifter. Then after you've run it for a while... refill and run with a lightweight like mobil1 10w30

[krayton]

the fsm says to try and solve the noise, u dig in there. then with your finger press down on it. should move some. slam it all back together, start it, and let it idle at 1000rpm no load for 10min.

so ive been assuming thats the bleeding method.

i hadnt had any luck with the noisy lifter detergents. didnt try marvel though.

[Darius]

I just used a feeler gauge to measure the cam to lifter clearance and all are out of spec. Coincidentally, the largest gaps are where the loudest ticking comes from and the ones with almost no gap are quiet. The odd thing is that cylinders 1 & 2 are less than the factory spec of 0.035-0.065 mm on both intake and exhaust and the other cylinders are on the high side of the spec.

If I pull the lifters out and bleed them, will they "puff" up and fill in that gap because I am betting that is what is making the ticking noise.

Does the lifter height change from when it is bled vs. when it is not? I don't think I need new lifters because it ran fine before I got new valves and my lifters bled easily. I did take a little more time to soak them in oil and poke a paper clip into the top hole to coax the air bubbles out. This time around I skipped that step because I thought it would be pointless and I still don't know how much of a difference it will make.

[Bluefire]

The lifters essentially expand with oil pressure. If the lifters sit around for awhile they will tend to get air in them. This is why the fsm says to submerge them in oil if they going to be standing around awhile. When you start the motor they will squish the lifter, bleeding them. They will then expand and take up the slack.

Sometimes when there is too much air and or debris, it will impede the lifters from being bled properly. Or if the lifter are fine, then another problem could be clogged up oil passages in the head. Then the lifters won't get the proper oil pressure they need to expand.

This is why i say to try a detergent oil. This can help clean out the lifters and oil passages. A light weight oil will also be able to flow through the entire system easier than a heavier weight oil. Once everything is running good and there is no noise, switch to a heavier weight. This the method I use to start up fresh swaps. you can actually hear each lifter being bled and the clacking going away one by one until the motor just purrs...

Also what exactly are you doing when you bleed the lifters... are you just swishing the clip around or actually compressing the spring inside..

-Bluefire

[Darius]

Thanks for the insight on how they work because I wasn't exactly sure of it. So the body isn't rigid inside and their height above the valve varies with oil pressure, right?

The first time I bled them, I blew them out with an air compressor, submerged the lifter in oil, and proceeded to rattle the plastic container against the work bench to vibrate the air bubbles out. Swirling them also pulled some of the old oil out in a thin black streak into the fresh oil into the container. I poked a paper clip into the top and pulled it out to draw a tiny suction to get the bubbles toward the center and out the hole during vibration. Basically tried everything to get the little air bubbles out.

Detergent probably won't work since my head was just washed after the valve grind. I can try to blow some of the passages out, but don't know if it will help much.

Thanks for the quick responses guys! I'm getting really desperate to get this biatch running now that the weather is sunny.

[Bluefire]

Do you by chance have a stethoscope. This is a great tool to locate any funky noises your motor is making. With this you should be able to pinpoint the exact lifter that are ticking.

also for bleeding the lifters, you actually have to compress the springed valve thingy inside. The spring on the inside is what actually gives the initial expansion of the lifter. But obviously you need the oil pressure to hold the expansion once the cams are in and the motor is running. Anyways, on top of the spring is a sort of valve that pushes up on the housing which expands the lifter. Now to properly bleed the lifters you need a thin rod to compress the valve and spring on the inside of lifter. This essentially squishes out air trapped under the valve on compression and sucks oil into the lifter with extraction of the tool.

now if the lifter is actually bad, there is usually a problem with the spring or valve and it doesn't hold oil pressure properly.

Actually I just remembered I have a link of how to recondition z32 lifters which are similar to the rb25's. it should give you a much better description of how the lifter works...

http://twinturbo.net/net/viewm...rch=3

-Bluefire

[Darius]

Bluefire - That link was the best I've seen in a long time for a rebuild tutorial. I took my lifters apart last night and cleaned them up and made sure they were bled. I know that quite a few of the ones that were loud had a lot of air in them because the telescoping part with the ball check valve was squishy when it should have been hard. By the time the cams were installed, it was midnight so I just called it a day. I'll check the cam-to-lifter clearance again tonight to see if it has improved.

Thanks again for that link. You're a life-saver!

[krayton]

very nice link.

darius did u clean them like the link? let us know how it goes. going to be digging into mine in a day or 2

[Darius]

Yeah I didn't soak them in degreaser for a couple hours. Mine weren't hardly dirty at all, so I just soaked them for about 15 minutes each while I took the next pair apart. Worked great!

A couple things I wanted to add about that link is to: 1) use an air compressor to blow the lifter assembly out of the bucket instead of pliers. A small burst of air while holding your thumb over the side hole in the bucket popped it right out. Make sure you are aiming the lifter into a plastic container so you don't shoot it across the garage floor like I did my first one. 2) Of course, this is after smacking it against the concrete floor with a couple of plastic baggies down for some abrasion protection.

[Darius]

I measured the cam-to-lifter clearance tonight and some have improved and some have stayed the same or gotten worse.

When the lifter is pressurized by the oil, is it supposed to expand to close the gap between the lifter and cam by allowing oil past the ball check valve in the lifter? I'm still a little fuzzy about why these things are so damn complicated when they should be solid lifters with shims from the factory...

My fear is that since some lifters have the same clearance or slightly more, that I'm going to put it all back together and it will still tick. I wouldn't be surprised at this point since everything else that could go wrong with this build has gone wrong. At least I haven't spun a rod, right?! heh

Found this definition of a hydraulic lifter, but it still doesn't make me feel comfortable that they are going to expand about 0.25mm when I start it up..."A valve lifter that, using simple valving and the engine's oil pressure, can adjust its length slightly: thereby maintaining zero clearance in the valve train. Hydraulic lifters reduce valve train noise and are maintenance-free."
Modified by Darius at 8:47 PM 4/11/2007

[kouki-gymkhana]

Damn, Darius...It seems as though both of our builds have been plagued by the same kinds of valvetrain problems. I've read both your posts and the link to the lifter cleaning procedure and my gut intuition leads me to believe that the lifters won't exhibit zero clearance until the whole top end is buttoned up and they are pressurized. I may be mistaken but it would seem to me that since you've taken them apart, cleaned them, and reassembled them, they will all be slightly out of spec. That's the point of hydraulic lifters, right? They expand when pressurized to fill the gap between the cam lobe and the top of the lifter, hence they are "self-adjusting" and don't need to be shimmed.

I think I've traced my compression problem to 1-2 dead lifters on the intake side. I'm just going to buy some new ones and bleed them properly and hope for the best. I'd rather eat donkey dung than take the head off my motor again. Yes, I'm that fed up...

PS: Sorry about not replying to your e-mail re: the valves and springs. Work has been killing me and this is the first time I'm getting back to the forum in a number of weeks. I don't think I'll be able to take them off your hands at this point. Good luck with the sale!

[Sil240]

Bro just buy new ones that are not to correct spec.So you won't have to take the head off again.Do you still have the Altima for a DD or was that your girls?

[Darius]

The lifters are in spec with regard to the diameter and bore of lifter bucket, and if they properly bleed, they should expand. I will fire it up tonight to see if things work out. Even if I thought I needed new ones, I wouldn't have to pull the head to get them out. Just the cams.

kouki - They are all packed up and waiting for you if you change your mind.

I've got a Civic as a daily driver, so no biggy. The girlfriend still has her Alti, but it is definitely starting to fall apart.

[MOB240]

sry to thread jack, but when you gona post up some more vids of your car darius? vids of the RB never get old!!!

[Darius]

heh no vids unless you want to hear an RB idle like a f*cking diesel truck.

I fired it up last night as a last ditch effort to get the lifters to prime. No luck. So tired of taking it apart and putting it together. I don't even give a **** if I blow it up anymore. I'd just have to take it apart like usual...

My only theories as to why the lifters are not expanding to their full height is that the internal spring has lost its strength and doesn't return the check valve body to its full height after it is bottomed out. OR I'm not getting enough oil pressure to prime them up after installation, but how could that happen with a new N1 pump?

So sick of this motor that am seriously considering selling it and just buying a new motorset. This one came with "The Grudge"

[Sil240]

1- Hook up a Oil Pressure gauge.Your going to need one anyway.

2- Someone said that Lifters were $11 each.I know it's like $265 but maybe if you change only the bad ones or ones you think might be a problem you could save some $$.

3- If you still have the problem. Pull the head and sit and clean out the oil passages.

Don't Give up!!!!Us non-running RB owners gotta support each other. lolNRRBA- Non Running RB Anonymous

[Darius]

LMAO

NRRBA - "Not only am I the president, but I am also a client."

I think we need to change the "A" to stand for association because you're right, we need to stick together.

I e-mailed nismoparts.com about a week ago and haven't gotten a quote or availability back. I think I can get away with changing out 14 lifters so that's just another $150 to add to the heap. Bad timing with the house purchase and future diamond purchase. Needless to say, money is tight.

[Sil240]

Ok, I'm with you on the "A" change.

But I might have to disagree.I might be the President and CEO. hahaI have NEVER driven my car lol.Going on about 2.5-3 or so years

Whatever you do, don't go to CourtesyParts to buy those Lifters.There $32.00 each.I was trying to find a cheaper set of Nissan ones, but I couldn't find any.