Libya, Condemnation, Mitt Romney, and Diplomacy

[IBCoupe]

Discuss.

[stebo0728]

I thought I heard that the timing there was muddled, that the apologetic statement was issued BEFORE the attacks began? I don't really know that it matters, I don't think America owe's anyone an apology for something one of its citizens does. But then I don't know that I have a problem with it either. I don't thing the commander in chief needs to be running apology tours of Eurasrica. That job might be more in the SoS jurisdiction.

I know I found no solace in Obama's response to the attacks. Reminded me of a hippie mom's passive response to an unruly child, "now lets settle down dear or we'll have a timeout"

[IBCoupe]

It was, Stebo. The Embassy issued a Tweet as a crowd grew, saying, basically, "We don't like the video any more than you do."

[stebo0728]

Frankly, I find Obama's foreign policy toward Israel far more troubling than his or Romney's policy toward muslim states. I didn't understand the whole push to add "God" and "Jerusalem is the capital" points back into the DNC platform. I can't speak to Obama's stance on God, but he's on record as NOT clearly supporting either Israel or Palestine regarding Jerusalem.

[stebo0728]

And additionally, why is Obama skipping intelligence meetings?

[Bubba1]

Obama's statement was hours before the attack. There was actually nothing controversial if you read the full statement. In fact, once could argue they wisely tried to distance the US government from the indie film's message that sparked the hostility. In addition to rather inappropriate timing, Mr. Romney made a political mess by lying it was Obama's first response to the attack and the administration was being apologetic/weak willed. Mittie really needs to think more before speaking.

[bigbadberry3]

Ermahgawd!

[WDRacing]

"The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions,"

That came from a verified US Embassy account. First off, you don't apologize for a movie trailer that's been posted on the internet. When people gather in a hostile manner, you prepare for defense and you request orders of action. You don't take to the air with apologies...ever.

The White House should have condemned the statement, not by saying that it wasn't cleared, but by saying it was wrong and free speech will never be restricted.

It doesn't matter that there was no attack at that time. You don't apologize for our practice and or belief of free speech. Period.

It's rich that you guys will jump all over Romney for criticizing the Obama Administration. Did you forget what day this was happening on? 9/11. On this day of all days your stance needs to be strong and resolute. Not jumbled and confused.

We came across weak. If you don't feel that way...well great for you

[themadscientist]

It's self-serving and inappropriate to politicize this at this juncture. Romney has zero class. Obama is true to form, nothing to see here, but the same old BS.

They need to pull our embassies from both countries immediately. If they cannot control their people we should refuse to deal with them.

I don't care what day it is. In fact, on 9/11 watching my fellow Americans take fifteen minutes out of their useless, selfish, contrived existence, wave a flag around and repeat some tired mantra about "we will never forget" just pisses me off. They forget 364 days of every year and need to STFU.

Romney needs to STFU too. He isn't president right now and he doesn't help a damned thing by jumping up and down screaming what he would do.

[WDRacing]

I don't care what day it is. In fact, on 9/11 watching my fellow Americans take fifteen minutes out of their useless, selfish, contrived existence, wave a flag around and repeat some tired mantra about "we will never forget" just pisses me off. They forget 364 days of every year and need to STFU.

Well consider me one of those useless, selfish people pursuing a contrived existence. Those are some pretty arrogant and ignorant words Mike.

[stebo0728]

This is starting to form up to be an organized action, one which our intelligence seems to have had knowledge of? If Obama made it to intelligence meetings maybe the mouth to a** statements that "preceded" the attack would have been forgone?

[Bubba1]

"The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions,"

That came from a verified US Embassy account. First off, you don't apologize for a movie trailer that's been posted on the internet. When people gather in a hostile manner, you prepare for defense and you request orders of action. You don't take to the air with apologies...ever.

The White House should have condemned the statement, not by saying that it wasn't cleared, but by saying it was wrong and free speech will never be restricted.

It doesn't matter that there was no attack at that time. You don't apologize for our practice and or belief of free speech. Period.

It's rich that you guys will jump all over Romney for criticizing the Obama Administration. Did you forget what day this was happening on? 9/11. On this day of all days your stance needs to be strong and resolute. Not jumbled and confused.

We came across weak. If you don't feel that way...well great for you

Brian, I think the problem is the part of the quote you and Mr. Romney focused on is being taken out of context. Here's the full quote, and it is significant that this occurred before the attack.

'The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorlst attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.'

Sorry, man. They're actually saying the controversial fringe indie film the muslims were screaming about does not represent the official view of the US government. What's so weak or controversial about that? Romney is guilty of playing ill timed politics.

Obama's got plenty of dirty laundry. Romney does not need to manufacture it.

[themadscientist]

I don't care what day it is. In fact, on 9/11 watching my fellow Americans take fifteen minutes out of their useless, selfish, contrived existence, wave a flag around and repeat some tired mantra about "we will never forget" just pisses me off. They forget 364 days of every year and need to STFU.

Well consider me one of those useless, selfish people pursuing a contrived existence. Those are some pretty arrogant and ignorant words Mike.

You know I don't include you in that. I'd spank you, but I know you would enjoy it.

[themadscientist]

I'm encouraged to see the quick pushback from Libyans. It's important to scream louder than the goofs so they are not all judged by the bahavior of the worst of their society. I think we would want to same opportunity.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/libyans-de ... 54864.html

[WDRacing]

Brian, I think the problem is the part of the quote you and Mr. Romney focused on is being taken out of context. Here's the full quote, and it is significant that this occurred before the attack.

'The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorlst attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.'

Sorry, man. They're actually saying the controversial fringe indie film the Muslims were screaming about does not represent the official view of the US government. What's so weak or controversial about that? Romney is guilty of playing ill timed politics.

Obama's got plenty of dirty laundry. Romney does not need to manufacture it.

First off, I'm not in bed with Romney. I never said he was correct in making any statements. I said he shouldn't have made any statement at all. I'm fully aware of the entire tweet that was made. I stand by my position of not apologizing for a trailer that was posted on the friggin internet. WE SHOULD NEVER APOLOGIZE for something as trivial as a video. If the statement they made wasn't a bad one, why was it pulled down?

The Embassy should have made no statement at all unless it was directed to by the Administration. The statement didn't do anything to diffuse the situation did it? So what we ended up with is an apologetically toned statement made hours before a full assault on our sovereign soil. A timed attack to coincide with 9/11.

The trailer didn't just come out, it's BEEN out. This attack was premeditated and it resulted in the death of American citizens. When you display weakness to these people, they own you. Extremists don't want our democracy, they don't want our apologies they want our death.

Say what you will about Romney and his ill timed statements, but FFS realize that our foreign policy of being nice to everyone doesn't garner you any respect and is failing world wide. If they feared repercussion they wouldn't be climbing the walls of our Embassies as we speak. We shouldn't be questioning what statements were made when, but rather asking do we have an effective foreign policy to protect our citizens and embassies abroad. That answer is obviously a no.

If you don't see these statements as being weak, then you don't understand what we're up against.

[Bubba1]

Oh, I fully undestand what we're up against, we just seem to disagree on two points.

1. My feeling is being respectful is not a sign of weakness, especially if you're a diplomat. Given the timing of that original statement, which was before the attack, I'm sure I'm not the only one to view that statement as a simple clarification, instead of a weak apology.

2. I think both you and Mr. Romney viewed the original statement based on the events that happened later, with the benefit of hindsight. This is why I said the timing was so important here. Many folks beside me, including many Republicans, felt it was rather inappropriate for Romney to make a political attack like that plus the timing of it.

Bottom line is it appears the attack was pre-planned, so whether or not any of the above diplomatic statements were made had little bearing on the attack itself. The primary reason the diplomatic statements became more of an issue than they should have was because of Romney's decision to politicize it.

[szh]

As a Muslim, I am disgusted by this movie, having seen some bits of it - even the actors and actresses in it were duped by the producer, apparently. But I am also far more upset by the violent reaction to it.

Most importantly though, separate from the responses from Romney or Obama, let's not forget a most important fact.

Regardless of any provocation from this stupid movie, attacking and killing people as an outcome is SIMPLY NOT ACCEPTABLE. There is simply no possible justification for this.

My deepest condolences to Ambassador Steven's family.

Z

[WDRacing]

Oh, I fully undestand what we're up against, we just seem to disagree on two points.

1. My feeling is being respectful is not a sign of weakness, especially if you're a diplomat. Given the timing of that original statement, which was before the attack, I'm sure I'm not the only one to view that statement as a simple clarification, instead of a weak apology.

That's the main difference, I see it as weak. I also see Clintons most recent address as weak as well. You're entitled to your opinion though, as I am mine. No real issue here. I'm definitely a shoot first and ask questions later type of guy. I'd open fire on the crowd that tore down the flag without remorse.

2. I think both you and Mr. Romney viewed the original statement based on the events that happened later, with the benefit of hindsight. This is why I said the timing was so important here. Many folks beside me, including many Republicans, felt it was rather inappropriate for Romney to make a political attack like that plus the timing of it.

Bottom line is it appears the attack was pre-planned, so whether or not any of the above diplomatic statements were made had little bearing on the attack itself. The primary reason the diplomatic statements became more of an issue than they should have was because of Romney's decision to politicize it.

We agree here. As I've stated twice now, make it 3 times...Romney shouldn't have said anything. Unless it was to object to the riots etc, nothing about the current Admins weak stance. All that did was make us look stupid.

[szh]

As I've stated twice now, make it 3 times...Romney shouldn't have said anything.

I agree with you on this.

Problem might be that he was catering to the "little to no mention of foreign policy at Republican National Convention" critics.

Z

[WDRacing]

There will always be critics, I think he was just aching to slander Obamalamadingdong.

[szh]

There will always be critics, I think he was just aching to slander Obamalamadingdong.

Could be.

Z

[stebo0728]

Anyone else catch the open mic team up the reporters had going before the Romney thing? I think they sorta goaded him into it, though it probably didn't take much LOL

[WDRacing]

Yeah I caught that, but I don't place any weight in those mainstream media outlets anyway. They've proven themselves to be nothing short of Liberal mouth pieces.

[WDRacing]

This is turning into a real goat f***.

[Marenta]

The Virginia national guard is doing training this weekend and their topic just so happens to be riot suppression. I think there is a reason for that, it's not just a coincidence.

[themadscientist]

Justin Bieber in town?

[carloslebaron]

Lets do the following, and lets imagine a different scenario.

Muslims video game makers made a game where the Pilgrims appear as a bunch of savages that eat mice and roaches. They travel to the new continent and kill without mercy to every aborigine they see on their way. The pilgrims of the game worship Satan secretly and curse everything that moves. From them, the descendants inherit hypocrisy, vandalism, and every negative aspect of a society. The game will be about a group of Muslims killing and destroying the descendants and military bases of the pilgrims descendants all around the world...this is to say, killing directly or indirectly several Americans.

The video game becomes a success. Even a movie is made and is watched worldwide.

Will you fell offended somehow with this freedom of speech made by Muslims? Would you like to see American historical roots treated that way by others?

Won't you feel just a little discomfort watching your own children buying and playing that video game and enjoying killing Americans in the game?

I'm just asking...

[WDRacing]

Lets do the following, and lets imagine a different scenario.

Muslims video game makers made a game where the Pilgrims appear as a bunch of savages that eat mice and roaches. They travel to the new continent and kill without mercy to every aborigine they see on their way. The pilgrims of the game worship Satan secretly and curse everything that moves. From them, the descendants inherit hypocrisy, vandalism, and every negative aspect of a society. The game will be about a group of Muslims killing and destroying the descendants and military bases of the pilgrims descendants all around the world...this is to say, killing directly or indirectly several Americans.

The video game becomes a success. Even a movie is made and is watched worldwide.

Will you fell offended somehow with this freedom of speech made by Muslims? Would you like to see American historical roots treated that way by others?

Won't you feel just a little discomfort watching your own children buying and playing that video game and enjoying killing Americans in the game?

I'm just asking...

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's the right up there with the dumbest "assumptive" posts I've ever read.

First, the current scenario is supposedly touched off by a youtube video clip, not even a whole movie, let alone anything "successful". Second, the video clip has already been internationally condemned, including by the US of f*** A. If you want to have a devils advocate type of discussion, it has to be similar in circumstance. Not something as extreme as your above situation.

Jesus and the Christian religion as a whole have been portrayed in all sorts of unfavorable to humorous positions hundreds of times. You don't see Christians rioting, burning s*** and murdering people.

"Death to America" they chant...well f*** them is what I have to say. And that goes for anyone that sympathizes with them as well. These people are going to be a problem with our way of life forever.

[Bubba1]

Lets do the following, and lets imagine a different scenario.

Muslims video game makers made a game where the Pilgrims appear as a bunch of savages that eat mice and roaches. They travel to the new continent and kill without mercy to every aborigine they see on their way. The pilgrims of the game worship Satan secretly and curse everything that moves. From them, the descendants inherit hypocrisy, vandalism, and every negative aspect of a society. The game will be about a group of Muslims killing and destroying the descendants and military bases of the pilgrims descendants all around the world...this is to say, killing directly or indirectly several Americans.

The video game becomes a success. Even a movie is made and is watched worldwide.

Will you fell offended somehow with this freedom of speech made by Muslims? Would you like to see American historical roots treated that way by others?

Won't you feel just a little discomfort watching your own children buying and playing that video game and enjoying killing Americans in the game?

I'm just asking...

Carlos, I hope you're not asking if we Americans viewed a popular product and found it offensive that we'd react as over-the-top violently as an extremist radical type of muslim.

American stores are already filled with games/products that would make many American parents of young children cringe. For example, ever hear of Grand Theft Auto? Of course we'd dislike it. But as parents, its obviously up to us to teach our children right from wrong, fact from fiction.

[stebo0728]

What they both said. The outrage isn't the problem, the actions in result of the outrage is the problem. And its looking more and more each day like that video was just a cover excuse, and this is really a more planned, collaborative protest that's been in the works, that Obama's administration had knowledge and warning of (not Obama himself since he doesn't bother to make intelligence meetings). It seems the "kiss *ss" tour may not have worked.