Kiss your injectors goodbye: Senator pushes for E20

[Jesda]

“Conditions are ripe for the next big step forward in bolstering America’s energy independence. After several years of success, it is time for the federal government to prepare for the production and use of a new blend of ethanol, E-20. I have requested that EPA begin preparing for certification of the E-20 ethanol blend for use in automobiles.

“With approval of gasoline with a higher percentage of ethanol that American consumers can safely use in all types of vehicles, we can expand and ensure the market for ethanol and further reduce America’s dependence on foreign sources of energy. I’m hopeful that the EPA will move forward on my request and begin preparing for this upgrade.”

http://thune.senate.gov/public...=2007

[maxnix]

Ah, the stench of federal subsidies.

The Senate spreads Federal Entitlements to the Entitled!

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'm going to be in a very bad mood when this eventually happens.I can't express how frustrating it is. I will get ZERO benefit from this, and it isn't exactly good for my car. Meanwhile, I have NO say in the matter.I thought we lived in America????

I dread the day when I have no alternative but a high-ethanol blend.

[heywier427]

althogh im not up on the subject, the more % of ethenol in the gas eats away the coil coating in the injectors, is that semi accurate?

so is this only going to hurt our cars, (G50 ect.) or will this include brand new 07 cars as well.

will there be a new way to protect the injectors using this new fuel?

or will auto manufacturers be redesigning injectors on newer cars?

whos going to be the first to try and make them work in Q?

i dont like changing injectors

[audtatious]

Injector manufacturers approve this approach

Time to invest in their stocks

[Jesda]

althogh im not up on the subject, the more % of ethenol in the gas eats away the coil coating in the injectors, is that semi accurate?

so is this only going to hurt our cars, (G50 ect.) or will this include brand new 07 cars as well.

Thats exactly it. New cars are unlikely to be harmed.

If its an option, then I support it. If its a mandate, then its time to sell the Q.

[AZhitman]

Crap.

How in the world can an otherwise intelligent guy, with a relatively reasonable record, screw the pooch like this?

Where's the education from the realists?

I especially love the part about "rejuvenation of the economy in the Midwest".

[audtatious]

Start extracting oil from shell in CO. They can do it for less than what a barrel of oil is now. Of course, the environmentalists will fight it tooth and nail.

[louiegz]

I don't see much E-20 here in Jersey. Believe it or not, I haven't had to change an injector in my Q yet. If this is a mandate all over, then it's a good reason to get rid of my 12 year old, 10 mpg junker. Time for a new car.

[Eikon]

I also read somewhere that Canada has some of the worlds largest oil deposits.. but it's all tied up in a sandy mix that makes it very costly to filter and extract. I'm sure as the cost of oil increases, Canada will become a bigger player in the oil market.

On a side note... we all know that Hydrogen is a very promising future fuel. The knock against it has always been that it's expensive to make and very dangerous to hold and transport. Well... a Swedish company has figured out how to downsize the manufacture of hydrogen fuel to small units somewhere between the size of a telephone booth and a garage. Imagine the gas stations actually manufacturing the gas. This fixes some of the bigger issues with hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

[viso]

This can only me one thing in the long run: Guys, we're going to have to go electric if we want to keep driving our Qs.

Electric conversion is an option. Basically, you dump the engine, exhaust, and gas tank. In their place, you install an electric motor, controller (to handle speed), a template to mate the motor to the transmission, a few bits and pieces, and a whole pile of batteries.

Unfortunately, the Q45 is not a particularly good donor vehicle, what with all the computer stuff, the automatic transmission, and power-hungry features. Still, this is a fairly resourceful board. I'm sure we can find a way.

For those of you who haven't already fainted, here are a few websites:http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/E...rsionh ... at...98657

[Q451990]

This can only me one thing in the long run: Guys, we're going to have to go electric if we want to keep driving our Qs.

Electric conversion is an option. Basically, you dump the engine, exhaust, and gas tank. In their place, you install an electric motor, controller (to handle speed), a template to mate the motor to the transmission, a few bits and pieces, and a whole pile of batteries.

Wouldn't it be easier to recreate the injectors in the aftermarket with upgraded plastic?

Heath

[Romeo5k]

aint this about a @&^$*...OKay.. seems like its time for me to get that 92 accord ive be procastinating on. That old accord can drink anything and saves gas. Bad thing is, i might only get to drive the Q once a year because maintenace will be tooo much to start the thing. This is insane.. Im really ticked off now.. I just damaged a Q thanks to the 10%.. ntw u want 20%... Well alll u mech and pros on here... get ready, Im going to be asking alot of noob questions wen probs arrive!.

[TXCumtrensh]

Yeah, and that ethanol really robs HP, which constitutes to worse gas mileage..

[Jesda]

Ethanol doesn't affect power at all. It does affect economy and puts stress on fuel system parts that aren't designed to handle it.

[maxnix]

Ethanol doesn't affect power at all. It does affect economy and puts stress on fuel system parts that aren't designed to handle it.

Actually it does and the reason there is lessened fuel economy is there is less BTU energy per unit of volume, hence less power also.

[Jesda]

Actually it does and the reason there is lessened fuel economy is there is less BTU energy per unit of volume, hence less power also.

That isn't an accurate statement. Ethanol is a higher-octane fuel, which means high-compression engines can achieve more power than with gasoline. Current flex-fuel E85 vehicles have a compression ratio low enough to handle gasoline, which fails to take advantage of the increased power available from ethanol.

Now, if we could import more sugar and sweet potato ethanol from South America, we'd be set.

Corn-based ethanol is good for the midwest and compatible with modern cars, but bad for people on the coasts (transport/storage costs) and bad for people with old vehicles. What can be good for society could be bad for the few, thus the reason I favor choice. I want to see pumps with 85.5-93 without MTBE/ethanol/oxygenates, as well as E10, E20, and E85 -- diesel too.

[audtatious]

More ethanol means more farms which means more crops which means more vegitative decay which means more methane and CO2.

Way to do something to increase man made "Global Warming".

<Note: Man made is BS IMO, so take the above with a cap of Scope>

[maxnix]

That isn't an accurate statement. Ethanol is a higher-octane fuel, which means high-compression engines can achieve more power than with gasoline.

Yes it is accurate. While ethanol will boost octane and allow higher compression ratios, it still has less BTU per unit volume than gasoline.

Methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Maybe we can run hoses form the back end of cows to a compressor plant?

[maxnix]

"But a vehicle using ethanol gets fewer miles per gallon than one using gasoline, because its fuel has a lower energy density."

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18304/page2/

[Jesda]

Yes it is accurate. While ethanol will boost octane and allow higher compression ratios, it still has less BTU per unit volume than gasoline.

Ethanol allows an engine, designed to fully take advantage of it, to produce more power from the same volume of fuel. Decreased mileage, but more power per gallon if the vehicle is designed to use it.

Brazil has an excess of sugar-based ethanol waiting to be exported, at the objection of US farmers.

[maxnix]

Ethanol allows an engine, designed to fully take advantage of it, to produce more power from the same volume of fuel.

Quite impossible if the BTU aren't there.

As one of my good attorney friends says, "At no time in law school did I ever hear the words, 'Now ladies and gentlemen, take your calculators and...'"

[Jesda]

Quite impossible if the BTU aren't there.

As one of my good attorney friends says, "At no time in law school did I ever hear the words, 'Now ladies and gentlemen, take your calculators and...'"

You start to see gains when a vehicle is properly designed to use ethanol to its full potential.http://www.popsci.com/popsci/a....html"Running straight gasoline, the engine produces 148 horsepower, but E85 jacks it up to 184, with no penalty in fuel economy."

Gasoline and dinosaur oil is so... 1910.

[Falkdesigns]

I can't wait to retro-fit my Q for it. I also wish we were getting the ethanol from South America. In Brazil, over 85% of cars run it, and they're not all new, most of them are old cars.

[96Qowner]

Heheh, ethanol is an environmental nightmare. You take perfectly good carbon that would otherwise go back into storage in the ground, and you convert it to something that emits CO2 into the atmosphere. On top of that, the process of converting corn or sugar cane requires burning fossil fuels, emitting even more CO2.

When every ethanol plant gets its energy from the Sun or the wind, and all the farmers run their equipment on ethanol or biodiesel, I'll get onboard.

Until then, it's just making global warming worse.

It's a nice farm support program, though.

[Falkdesigns]

But the idea that BILLIONS of humans have an impact on the environment is liberal hogwash!!

Actually, the idea that BILLIONS of humans DON'T have an impact is conservative idiocracy, pure "ignorance is bliss".

[Jesda]

Ahh crap, global warming debate. What have I done?

[Q45tech]

HOWEVER, using ethanol in a 90-96 Q will decrease the MPG.

Nothing can be done via the only adjustable parameters [reprogramming ecu] A/F and ignition advance to offset the lower BTU.

If all the gasoline you buy has 10% ethanol you could tweek the O2 control portion to offset the extra oxygen and reset the 14.7 AF point to 15.2 AF indicated not real] and gain 3% back at cruise...............might not pass emissions............lean mixture by 0.03----0.05 millisecs at cruise.

Increasing highway by 0.5 mpg might save 23 gallons per year [blended 18 average] not really worth the effort and the experimental cost.

[ScottJackson]

Crap. My car just started idling noticeably worse in the last week. I ohmed my injectors and have #5 and #6 that are completely dead and #4 is at 18ohms. I hate pulling the plenum. Next time it comes off (soon) it's getting all 8 remanned injectors (cuz I'm too poor and can't justify 8 brand spankin' new ones). Guys running turbos and superchargers love ethanol because it's cheaper than race fuel and they can pump up the boost and timing on the stuff to make big power. It takes a lot of the fuel to do it, but adding fuel volume is easy... it's adding the air that is more difficult. So Jesda is right that you can generally make more power on E85 than pump gas, but it takes a lot of it to do that because it has less energy by volume. If we go to E20, I may just be compelled to try fabbing up my own intake with cheap bosch style injectors (except then it won't be smog legal, but there's no emissions laws here in Iowa, where this great ethanol comes from). Our 1966 John Deere tractor gets straight gasoline, just like all of our other tractors. The farmers don't use ethanol but a lot of them like the $$$ it brings them. Then there's the meat producers that must pay more money for livestock feed because they're competing with the ethanol plants for the same corn. Our buffalo are 100% grass fed so it helps us in that beef prices are a little higher and we don't buy corn. But if I have to keep replacing injectors, it kinda negates that.

[Romeo5k]

im so paranoid now..... im about ready to sell my Q now... Just wen i got everything going on right.!!!