well, i shouldve put up this info as soon as i had the suspension stuff installed but i was waiting on a response from Bulletproof Automotive.
First off, i have a 93 s13 and i am currently running the 2001 sentra spec v rims. those rims carry a hefty 44 or 47mm offset. now most admins, if not all, would call this massacre, but i went against the law and did it since the rims sit so beautiful on the car and more importantly, since they are factory nissan rims. The rims do fit the car and they do not cause any camber issues at all. I took the car a week after putting on the rims to the alignment guy and everything checked out.
Now the real myth. I was o so fortunate to locate a nicely used suspension setup from a jdm s13 on the beloved ebay. The springs are kgmm dr racing (the gold ones) and the shocks are kyb special SR shocks. They were in amazing condition and practically looked new. So i installed the springs and shocks and the car was lowered approximately 2.2 inches in the front and 1.2 inches in the rear. Now i have heard that Eibach sportlines will lower the car around the same height but with some camber issues. I took the car to alignment guy and no camber issues could be found. Whether i got lucky or not could be the case, but the facts are in. The drop is definitely the best for any s13. its not tucking and there is no rubbing. you will scrape if you try to take a slope dead straight but if you go slow you can avoid the scraping.
The only issue with the suspension setup was how the coils compress currently. the coils differ on each side; by this i mean that the rear have the coils closer towards the top and the front have the coils closer near the bottom of the strut. The alignment guy pointed this out to me and unfortunately, you cant tell this until after you put the setup on the car. So i contacted Bulletproof Automotive since they are a distributor of Kgmm springs and it took them a while to get back to me due to them being over in Tokyo for the Auto Salon. They finally got back to me and they said that that was normal since they are dual rate springs. Nonetheless, i most likey wasnt going to change anything since their are no ride or camber issues.
Sorry for the long post but it had to be done. Ill post pics soon.
Kgmm Springs and The myth is now a fact
A couple things:
1. I'm not sure I get you when you say the wheel/tire didn't cause any camber issues.
2. A pal has the mythical Ohlins suspension on his s13, off of his 180. I would say the car sits about identical to what you described... perhaps the ideal drop for the s13.
Also... PICS PICS PICS!!!
and your sig line... so true.
1. I'm not sure I get you when you say the wheel/tire didn't cause any camber issues.
2. A pal has the mythical Ohlins suspension on his s13, off of his 180. I would say the car sits about identical to what you described... perhaps the ideal drop for the s13.
Also... PICS PICS PICS!!!
and your sig line... so true.
well there is no rubbing issues with the rims. i know they came off of a FWD and usually the high offset causes clearance issues, but i havent had any and i havent had any uneven or weird tire wear or camber issues. the rims have been on the car for about a year and a half now. transferring pics to comp as we speak
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240marcuSX
- Posts: 4005
- Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:00 am
- Car: E34 525i
E46 M3
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pierre.g/xnview/enxnview.html
found that link on one of the other pages somewhere.
found that link on one of the other pages somewhere.
"All this means is that the 240sx suspension isn't as good as we all think. Suspensions designed for superior handling are SUPPOSED to gain negative camber as they compress to keep the tire contact patch as flat as possible on the ground during hard cornering."
....a well-done suspension should GAIN negative camber when its compressed? thats a fuction of suspension design, and camber settings are a function of chasis engineering....
you honestly think some guy making a ferrari 575 maranello goes "oh man, I better set this up so it gains negative camber if someone lowers/compresses it, thats the sign of a great suspension" most guys, like lotus engineers design the suspesion so whatever settings you lock in stay that way...
I mean, honestly, when a race car enters a turn, the chasis wont flex much, thusly the springs dont compress, and the camber settings DONT CHANGE. you dont want them to! ideally, you'd set the camber to the conditions you want, and it would stay that way, because suspension settings changes cause the car to feel les-slinear, and if the car was properly setup in the first place, then the settings change, it will handle less aptly...
on a side note; jookmasta: nice setup, I would like lower offset wheels, but if you're cool with it, it looks nice...but you wont be clearing coilovers or Z brakes
-chet
....a well-done suspension should GAIN negative camber when its compressed? thats a fuction of suspension design, and camber settings are a function of chasis engineering....
you honestly think some guy making a ferrari 575 maranello goes "oh man, I better set this up so it gains negative camber if someone lowers/compresses it, thats the sign of a great suspension" most guys, like lotus engineers design the suspesion so whatever settings you lock in stay that way...
I mean, honestly, when a race car enters a turn, the chasis wont flex much, thusly the springs dont compress, and the camber settings DONT CHANGE. you dont want them to! ideally, you'd set the camber to the conditions you want, and it would stay that way, because suspension settings changes cause the car to feel les-slinear, and if the car was properly setup in the first place, then the settings change, it will handle less aptly...
on a side note; jookmasta: nice setup, I would like lower offset wheels, but if you're cool with it, it looks nice...but you wont be clearing coilovers or Z brakes
-chet
You should read into double a-arm suspension. It is the ideal suspension design for cornering because it gains negative camber on the outside wheel as the spring compresses. You want negative camber on the outside wheel because it keeps the tire contact patch as flat as possible to the ground for maximum traction on the tire that needs it most during hard cornering. Strut type suspension is probably the second best choice, but it is lacking in camber gain during compression. Do some research.
Oh, and the springs definatly compress on all turns in any race car. Just because the chassis doesn't flex much doesn't mean the springs don't compress.
I don't know about Ferraris, but most likely they come this way from the factory. You don't have to setup your suspension to gain negative camber during jounce, that is the suspension designers job.
Oh, and the springs definatly compress on all turns in any race car. Just because the chassis doesn't flex much doesn't mean the springs don't compress.
I don't know about Ferraris, but most likely they come this way from the factory. You don't have to setup your suspension to gain negative camber during jounce, that is the suspension designers job.
*sigh* compression of a spring would be done according to the spring rate, the lower the rate, the more easily compressed it is. When you run a track car, you dont want the ride highet changing, or the CG unless it is in a very specific manner, thusly, you choose a higher spring rate, so it doesnt compress(to the point of nearly not at all) sure they compress a bit, but thats not the point of my argument.
Yes, you want negative camber for cornering, but the ammount you need would vary depending on the track, tires, chassis and other items(driver preference even) and desired handling atributes(undertseer, oversteer, etc)
negative camber only keeps the contact patch more even if the chasis rolls onto it, otherwise it just scrubs the inner edge of the tire....
"Do some research"I dont like being talked to as if I am a child, either.
oh well, to each their own.
also, the 240's do gain more camber when lowered...its more noticable in the rear than the front.-chet
Yes, you want negative camber for cornering, but the ammount you need would vary depending on the track, tires, chassis and other items(driver preference even) and desired handling atributes(undertseer, oversteer, etc)
negative camber only keeps the contact patch more even if the chasis rolls onto it, otherwise it just scrubs the inner edge of the tire....
"Do some research"I dont like being talked to as if I am a child, either.
oh well, to each their own.
also, the 240's do gain more camber when lowered...its more noticable in the rear than the front.-chet
Exar-Kun wrote:*sigh*
Who's talking to whom like a child?
When F1 cars corner at 3Gs, you better believe their very stiff springs compress.Anti-roll bars are the prefered way to control body roll. Softer springs ("soft" in respect to what the application is) can follow the road easier. F1 cars need very high rates because in addition to weighing 2000 or so lbs, they create extremely high downforces. Also, rates must be high to prevent binding on 3G turns.
"negative camber only keeps the contact patch more even if the chasis rolls onto it, otherwise it just scrubs the inner edge of the tire...."
That's why you design your suspension to gain camber as in jounce. You can have zero camber at ride height and then more as the chassis rolls.
Open your mind, man.
Ride height would change during cornering because of body roll and cornering forces...hence my comment about stiff versus soft springs, etc"That's why you design your suspension to gain camber as in jounce. You can have zero camber at ride height and then more as the chassis rolls."
Ideally, you'd only want the camber to change as much as the chasis would roll onto the tire... IE a shift of weight would result in a camber change so the tires surface area had an equal distribution of the load...
(I do appologise for comming across as rash earlier, I'm a bit more calm now.)
I know why F1 cars run high rates
I also know static grip is better under a soft spring if the camber does change because the casis rolls onto the tire, but as the tires grip increases and the stiffness of the chasis and suspension increases the less you'd want the camber to change under compressions, since it would be closer to ideal from the get-go, thats all I am getting at.-chetagain, appologies for acting like an idiot.
Ideally, you'd only want the camber to change as much as the chasis would roll onto the tire... IE a shift of weight would result in a camber change so the tires surface area had an equal distribution of the load...
(I do appologise for comming across as rash earlier, I'm a bit more calm now.)
I know why F1 cars run high rates
I also know static grip is better under a soft spring if the camber does change because the casis rolls onto the tire, but as the tires grip increases and the stiffness of the chasis and suspension increases the less you'd want the camber to change under compressions, since it would be closer to ideal from the get-go, thats all I am getting at.-chetagain, appologies for acting like an idiot.well thats all nice and dandy but remember guys, no camber issues = more money to spend on other stuff. lol. as for the whole negative camber thing, that may prove useful on a track or what not but how many 240s are really track only cars here in the US????? most peeps on this board use the lovely 240sx to commute daily so i think we all love our tires and hate to replace them as they are an added expense. but by all means, please continue "threading" exar and spitz. didnt really know about these camber and CG things till i read yall posts.
Jookmasta wrote:so i think we all love our tires and hate to replace them as they are an added expense.
You've got the wrong idea. The ideal suspension design allows ZERO camber at ride height (=no uneven tire wear due to camber) and gains negative camber with jounce as the body rolls, this keeps the tire even with the ground. The idea is to keep the biggest tire contact patch on the ground at all times, especially when cornering hard. When you corner hard, you are actually riding the outer edge of the tire more.
And yes, this problem can be hidden with stickier tires and sway bars on a street car.