KA turbo minus eccs?

[ftrs13]

I have been looking around and seen that people are removing the eccs system when they put in a turbo to the KA. Has anyone done this? whats involved, and does it decrease daily drivability? what are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

[TrunkMonkey]

i don't think you mean eccs. the eccs system includes the ecu and all of the sensors it reads. if this is the case, you would need a standalone to replace it.

without the eccs system, your car would just sit.

-demetrius

[TomsMR2]

i think he means the intake runner butterflies

yes, people remove them. they suck crap. people remove them on basically stock engines with a gain. yank them out, regardless of your goals/plans.

[240marcuSX]

intake runner butterflies??.....what?..

swhat are intake runner butterflies?:help

[gyfer]

those are the little inserts that hide within your intake manifold

seach will help, but here it goes.http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....erfly

[WDRacing]

LMAO....you guys are nutz. Butterflies where the intake meets the head, improves lowend torque. Or so I'm told.

He could be referring to HICAS...But I'm not sure.

WD

[TomsMR2]

^ supposibly.. i dont think nissan did a really great job with their butterfly design :P

check out cosworths butterfly setup :o its beastly, multi length runners etc etc... or even toyotas, at least they used 2 runners per cylinder :P

[sil80drifter]

No, these butteflies are there solely for warmup purposes, when the car is completely warm, they stay open at all times. you can notice when they open if the car is cold, and you gun it, after 2500rmp or so u get an extra kick, as they (reluctantly) open, and let you beat on your poor engine, while it's still cold. This effect is gone after the engine warms up.They are there for the every day driver who does not warm up his/her car and just starts driving after getting in (and not under 3k the first few minutes either).People say they are there for low end torque, and I don't see how that would be possible, since all they do is restrict airflow to some degree, and not really shorten or lengthen the length of the runners.Removing them gives u that great feeling of free horsepower (although the gains are very minimal), and most of all, letting your car breathe free-er. Just remember to warm up/drive under 3k when u start out (even if u dont' remove them).

sil80

[gyfer]

... People say they are there for low end torque, and I don't see how that would be possible, since all they do is restrict airflow to some degree, and not really shorten or lengthen the length of the runners.....

sil80

To get more power from your motor, you need to "burn more". You can either get more oxygen to burn more gas OR get the gas to burn more oxygen.

In the perfect world, you want 100% of you gas burned. In this case, you won't have any CO ( not CO2) polution, you get great gas mileage, and you never need to change your engine oil.

But, we don't live in perfect world. Most of the time, fuel don't get burn 100%. Automotive engineers tried very hard to make sure most of the fuel get burned. To make your fuel burn better, it comes to a very basic concept -> better fuel molecule atomized (into air, evenly spread into fuel vapor).

That's why Fuel Injection is introduce in 80s. It spray into air, instead of waiting fuel to vapor. Sceintist also found out few ways to get better "fuel atom-ization". Heating up your throttle body and fuel line, so fuel get vapor to the air easier, Variable intake and etc....

Ok.. back to your question. YES, butterfiles DOES increase (lengthen) low end torque. At low RPM, "swirling" the air is important. The better it swirl, the better the fuel blend into the air. Butterfiles help swirl the incoming air. The more it swirl, the longer in takes to flow into cylinder, give more time for fuel to vapor, thus somehow it work like longer intake runner -> give the fuel more time to "atom-ized". It works quite like VTEC or VVT-i , but VTEC or VVT-i is way much efficient and different, and less restrictive at high rpm.

[sil80drifter]

So if I understand you correctly, when the butterflies are in a completely open position (parallel to the intake floor/ceiling, if you know what I mean), they still swirl the air? I know what you mean with your explanation, I just don't think that OUR butterflies do the swirl thing. I have read that they are for warm-up purposes only on the KA. The reasoning being that they stay completely open at anytime after the engine has warmed up, so they would only "actively affect swirl" when the engine is cold, and not so much afterward. They also have little semi-circular cutouts on the edge (one per butterfly), so that air can get through, even if they are almost closed.

I may be wrong, and I will look in my FSM today, when I get back from work/school.

sil80

[gyfer]

The cutout edge is to create the swirl effect.According to the FSM ( and last time I read it ), the butterfiles will remain close, and graduately open until 2500rpm, and stay wide open after 2.5k. or maybe at lower rpm range before 2.5k.

The butterfiles design is somehow "defective". It doesn't do much help. Instead, it restricted air flowing and later rpm ( even at 3.5k.. I believe). The main purpose is there is because of emision reason.

I hate it, dislike it, so I got rid of it.

[U12 2NR]

What gyfer said is correct. Nissan doesn't refer to it as a secondary butterfly valve, it's actually called swirl control valve. This has NOTHING to do with warm or cold engine. It's soul purpose is to produce low end power. Restricting air flow at low rpm increases the velocity of the air.

It's basically controlled by the ecu, ecu activates solonoid, solonoid activates actuator, actuator opens or closes valves (butterflies).

Remove them and you'll give up the ka's trademark low end power for slightly increased higher end power.

Does any of this relate to the original question anyway? hehe. Who knows.

[WDRacing]

So I was right......Sil80 lol, just kiddin.

WD

[TomsMR2]

.. its still a crappy design :P i say remove it, regardless of wtf it does.

Quote »At low RPM, "swirling" the air is important. The better it swirl, the better the fuel blend into the air. [/quote]ive never owned a car with a built in "swirler". i think its adequately swirling air on its own. Quote »It works quite like VTEC or VVT-i [/quote]VTEC = variable blah blah something blah cams blah. (i hate honda, i refuse to learn their acronyms:P). it switches cam lobes.vvt-i = variable valve timing (with intelligence). alters cam timing based on throttle load/RPM. both vtec and vvt-i change something about the valvetrain. the 240's system is TOTALLY unrelated. if anything, its a halfassed T-VIS type system, directly affecting the intake tract.

ive got an extremely strong feeling that additional swirl is unnecessary, and the valve creates more turbulance and disturbes linear flow more than it helps.

[sil80drifter]

I still haven't checked the FSM... WD, my feelings remain... unhurt! I'll check tonight for sure, and only then will I admit defeat. And not because I don't agree with you guys, but because of my gut feeling, I think TomsMR2 may be very right about the interference these valves may cause. Also, maybe mine are not functioning properly, but the "kick" my car gets when it's cold after 2500 rpm, is NOT there at all after it's warm. This was the basis of my previously stated opinion, which referred to them as warmup valves.

sil80

[WDRacing]

The RB20DE has the same butterflies. We always remove those if your converting it over to turbo as well. But they are there for low end torque in NA form.

I see them as an obstruction....more air...more fuel...more boom.

WD

[sil80drifter]

Ok, here comes the bashing:FSM: "blah blah balh, swirl control, etc etc, etc... The SCV solenoid valve is operated by the ECU, when the car is idling, the Swirl Control Valve (SCV) closes, increasing air velocity, and promoting the vaporization of fuel in the combustion chamber... and opens (completely, there is no partial open or closed position) after 1400rpm (or when not idling), or when water temperature is above 95F..."

HENCE: It does absolutely nothing during normal driving, since most of use stay above 2000rpm during any time unless standing still. Ergo, the SCV is for idling/warm-up only, therefore low end remains un-affected (unless you count anything below 1400 as low end, which is only 700rpm away from idle), and you all can go home and take a nap.

My theory about cold engine "kick in" remains true, my gut feelings were right, and I am unashamedly (not a real word) putting your faces into the mud.

This would also mean a rougher/richer idle when the valves are gone (to be solved with SAFC or any other fuel management attachment), but a smoother flow when rpm's are high. Since the valves are in the way even when completely open, they mess up the airflow at higher speeds, their disappearing would solve this problem (and improve boosting conditions, as WD said).

sil80

[U12 2NR]

Ok, here comes the bashing:FSM: "blah blah balh, swirl control, etc etc, etc... The SCV solenoid valve is operated by the ECU, when the car is idling, the Swirl Control Valve (SCV) closes, increasing air velocity, and promoting the vaporization of fuel in the combustion chamber... and opens (completely, there is no partial open or closed position) after 1400rpm (or when not idling), or when water temperature is above 95F..."

Go to the following link and read.

http://www.hipershine.com/Stanza/SCV.jpg

That's from the Nissan factory service manual on cd's. If you also do a search on google for 'nissan swirl control valve' you will also learn that this is done for low end POWER.

you all can go home and take a nap.

My theory about cold engine "kick in" remains true, my gut feelings were right, and I am unashamedly (not a real word) putting your faces into the mud.

That's a real nice attitude you got there.. :rolleyes

[U12 2NR]

.. its still a crappy design :P i say remove it, regardless of wtf it does.

What makes it a crappy design?

[Dattebayo]

Im gonna jump in and say that I dont really see the point of you two arguing this anyway, seeing as you both could be correct and whatever. Im also gonna say that maybe someone here should try to redesign the valve or fab something to go in its place that would work more to swirl the air in all forms of driving. (or you could put in a turbo which swirls air anyway, dur) That valve with a notch out the side does not ACTIVELY swirl anything well except for my brain on why the engineers who thought that up didnt spend too much time on it at all. Jesus that swirl crap you see on TV would do more.

[TrunkMonkey]

boy did this thread blow up....

and we still don't know what the original poster was actually refering to.

-demetrius

[gyfer]

VTEC = Variable valve Timing and Electronic lift ControlVVT-i = Variable Valve Timing -(with) intelligent

I said it work quite like VTEC, but different !!When I said quite, I mean the butterflies give the intake air a different air flow characteristic at certain rpm point, which in this case, the butterflies help swirl the air for better fuel mix.

Toms, in term of you hate Honda, and you dont' learn thier acronyms, I assume that you don't learn anything about Honda. That's is cool. I use to hate Honda too, but as soon as I know more about honda, I found out their engineers put alot of incredible technology into thier n/a car. ( plus turbo too, if you count 80s F1 formula). There's a lot of stuff to learn from hondas..But I still dislike them.

2BN, the butterflies DOES swirl the air. And you don't want any swirl air at high rpm. The swirl crap in TV is real crap, and don't ever buy them. ( it hurt your hp ) And I think the valve is perfectly fine in design. Just need some port & polish :p

No, this thread is still good. We are still trying to find out about ECCS

[TomsMR2]

Toms, in term of you hate Honda, and you dont' learn thier acronyms, I assume that you don't learn anything about Honda. That's is cool. I use to hate Honda too, but as soon as I know more about honda, I found out their engineers put alot of incredible technology into thier n/a car.

i used to hate honda too.. then i learned more about them.. then the hate really started!

they're weak high strung torqueless wonders. imo, thats totally ghey. so the type R makes 180hp from a 1.8L? it also has no torque. the 3sgte makes 200hp from 2.0L with a ton of torque, and $15 in mods gives it about 40 more hp. [/end highjack]

[sil80drifter]

U12 -

1) I have the actual 1990 240SX FSM in front of me, and the paragraph about the SCV open, and don't trust any other FSM which is not THIS one. It may be that in the Stanza, the valves actually help low end, and so forth, but as I said, them being fully open after 1400rpm, or 95 degrees Fahrenheit, they do nothing for low end in the 1990 240SX. Internet FSMs and FSMs on CD in general (which can be bought on E-Bay, and can be very bootleg, I know cuz I've bought one) are rarely as good as the actual FSMs, unless they are photocopied/scanned. Which is not to say the info you gave is incorrect. But just think that the valves are fully open most of the time. How could they possibly improve low end when they are open?

Get a REAL FSM. There it says (and shows with a diagram) how the ECU controls the solEnoid based on inputs from Idle Switch(mhm, that's right idle), Ignition Switch (if the car is on or not), Crank Angle sensor (for RPM), and last but NOT least ENGINE TEMPERATURE SENSOR(you know where I'm going with this).

2) My attitude was one of sarcastically friendly fun making joy. Don't take it personal. It was never meant to be anything but a fun comment. You don't see WD freakin out on me.

sil80

[WDRacing]

I'm going to choke you out Sil80......

No really.....Sil80 isn't showing an attitude...you guys are basically arguing the same mute point...swirling increases air velocity, which increases torque. So does restricting the size of the intake runner at low idle. A larger opening cuts down on incoming air velocity which causes loss in power. This also happens if you port the hell out of your intake runners or head chambers. Unless you have a turbine designed to flow that much of an increase in volume and pressure.

For the record....for the 2 or 3 guys arguing about Honda's...lmao. Please, I figured you guys would know better then to even talk about a Honda in this forum. The head design is fantastic, but they totally lack any king of lowend torque, which is a by product of no stroke, which is also why you can rev the hell out of the engine without snapping rods. But 9000 rpm and 200 hp with 130 ftlbs of torque isn't going to win any races.

I built a high CR Honda during my hiatus from Skylines over here. The topend was fairly nice, but I had to remove my interior to even feel comfortable hanging out late night with my friends. With 13/1 CR running 104 octane mixed with alcohol, I was running 14.5s in the 1320. You can keep your Honda's.

WD

[TomsMR2]

oh.. about restricting intake for velocity... doesnt the throttle body do that?

without a proper dual runner setup, an additional valve for velocity will, at best, marginally help.

[gyfer]

WD,let me cut and paste a paragraph.

Quote »

An engine's crank torque is directly related to how much fuel/air is combusted per engine cycle. For normally aspirated engines, this means that increasing the displacement size will usually result in increased crank torque. For forced induction engines, the effective displacement is larger than the numerical displacement since the air is pre-compressed before it is forced into the engine. Unlike increased displacement or forced induction, the VTEC system optimizes engine breathing at high RPMs to increase power. Therefore, a VTEC engine's displacement is the smallest of the three methods of increasing power output. And since crank torque is limited by displacement, a VTEC engine's crank torque output is smaller compared to non-VTEC engines of similar power output level.

But this doesn't mean that a VTEC engine's HP is somehow worth less. In fact, Honda automobiles equipped with VTEC engines have performance numbers that agrees with the tried and true power-to-weight-ratio method of estimating acceleration performance. People hold this misconception because they have a fundamental lack of understanding of the relationship between crank torque, horse power, and acceleration. Crank torque by itself is meaningless in determining the engine's ability to accelerate the car. This is because the crank torque is multiplied by the gearing and final drive ratio before it is converted to forward thrust. And physics dictates that an engine putting out 160HP absolutely will provide more forward thrust than a 150HP engine, regardless of what crank torque the two engines have, assuming similar transmission efficiency and optimal gearing for both cars. This is plain high school physics. Unless someone can prove that the laws of thermodynamics and Newtonian physics are false, there is no way around this fact.

There is some significance to the shape of the crank torque curve, however. When drag racing a car, it is desired to have a bit of initial wheel spin, and then have the tire hook up with the ground. A torque curve with a peak early in the RPM range and then tapers off as RPMs rise is well suited to this purpose. This is why big displacement American muscle cars are so good at drag racing. VTEC engines, on the other hand, have very smooth gradually rising torque curves. The initial wheel spin, therefore, is harder to achive. And after the initial wheel spin gets going, the level torque curve means that very precise clutch and gas pedal control is needed to allow the drive wheels to regain traction while maintaining maximum acceleration. This is why VTEC engines are more difficult to launch off the line than large displacement muscle car engines.

[/quote]

Although low end torque is great in terms of driveability, and fuel economy, if you going to put a full forward thrust, which you will likely rev it high up, with high end power in very high RPM ( and you can take benefit of better gearing ) .... why you want so much torque in low end anyway ?

You know engine design, good low end torque -> hurt hign end hoursepower output , vice versa. So, why don't keep moderate torque and good high rpm hourspower ?

[gyfer]

oh.. about restricting intake for velocity... doesnt the throttle body do that?

without a proper dual runner setup, an additional valve for velocity will, at best, marginally help.

You want swirl air during fuel injected into air...You don't want swirl air before this.. this is not swirl air. It is call friction , or turbulence = lost of power.

[U12 2NR]

U12 -

1) I have the actual 1990 240SX FSM in front of me, and the paragraph about the SCV open, and don't trust any other FSM which is not THIS one. It may be that in the Stanza, the valves actually help low end, and so forth, but as I said, them being fully open after 1400rpm, or 95 degrees Fahrenheit, they do nothing for low end in the 1990 240SX. Internet FSMs and FSMs on CD in general (which can be bought on E-Bay, and can be very bootleg, I know cuz I've bought one) are rarely as good as the actual FSMs, unless they are photocopied/scanned. Which is not to say the info you gave is incorrect. But just think that the valves are fully open most of the time. How could they possibly improve low end when they are open? Get a REAL FSM.

Mine is scanned onto cd's from the book.

[WDRacing]

oh.. about restricting intake for velocity... doesnt the throttle body do that?

without a proper dual runner setup, an additional valve for velocity will, at best, marginally help.

Hey, I said the design sucked A$$...

WD