'junkyard' CA20DET howto

[tyrannix]

this will be finished when I assemble the thing, but as i was raping the junkyard pulsar yesterday, i had a thought.

the valvetrain is identical between a pulsar FWD ca18DE and the s13 RWD CA18s (as far as i know, if different somebody call me on it)

head itself has some small differences ... immediatly visableis the plenum that goes over top of the valve covers and sparkplug cover, and is a pain in the *** to remove (had to leave, going back on monday to finish pulling the head)

that and the head has a breather part that sticks up and vents the whole head

but here is my idea: no parts from an imported CA being used on my build... for the simple fact that sure i can use exotic parts, but then when i blow it up, Where will i find relacements?

so this build is going to be either things you can find in an american junkyard, or new parts that are going to be in stock and you can order whenever you want to

sofar the instructions consist of

$150 rape a stanza for a CA20 bottom end (remains to be seen what wil be done for accessories... crank pulley, ALT, PS pump, AC pump.... because yes, this will include AC ... and brackets for everything .. might end up needing to get an imported RWD CA18DE for cheap to get brackets and stuff

(i paid $250 for mine tho, because i bought a whole CA20E and had it shipped to me)

~$100 rape a pulsar for a CA18DE head

$500 send 2 exhaust cams off to Dee's regrinders for the 'stage 2' regrind treatment

~ $250 tomei valve springs, or JWT z32 valve springs

then the stuff i havnt done yet:

pistons .. not ready to deal with that yet

rods: same deal as ca18 rods? just need to be shot peened and call it good?

oil squirters: will find some other american cat that has them, doesnt matter if theyre stock CA ones, because you have to tap threads for tehm on teh CA20 block anyway

crank girdle: not sure what to do about this one, want to have it but not sure what else will be compatible .... somebody suggested a KA one at some point..... maybe with machine work it will (just thinking out loud here... it may not even match up... but if its close, i will try)

then the machine work to add the idler pulley (getting stud from nissan parts dept)and change the head bolt threads

then a custom timing belt, have the info needed and a place that wil make it

and im seeing about getting a crank scraper made for a CA20

but thats about it, i will update this as progress is made, but i want to say total cost for a 'junkyard' race-ready brand new (after machine work) built CA20DET will still be less than the other buy and install 's13 swap engines'

and after its built, the goal will be to blow it up... see what it can do

CJ

[ca18datsun510]

head itself has some small differences ... immediatly visableis the plenum that goes over top of the valve covers and sparkplug cover, and is a pain in the *** to remove (had to leave, going back on monday to finish pulling the head)

thats the intake manifold, not the head.

[DeXteR]

suggestion: since you need to tap for oil squirters anyway, i'd say try dsm oil squirters. they come in 4g63 turbo engines. i have a set i'll sell you for cheap. then if you need replacements, go to the junkyard, find a turbo dsm, drop the oil pan and snatch them out. it'd be really easy.

[tyrannix]

suggestion: since you need to tap for oil squirters anyway, i'd say try dsm oil squirters. they come in 4g63 turbo engines. i have a set i'll sell you for cheap. then if you need replacements, go to the junkyard, find a turbo dsm, drop the oil pan and snatch them out. it'd be really easy.

awesomeim heading to the junkyard today after work, to finish pulling the pulsar head. if i dont see a DSM there, ill hit you up for those when i get home

CJ

[CaEric]

What kinda power are you looking for with this build ?

[DeXteR]

just make sure it's a turbo, otherwise you'll be wasting your time. hit me up on aim if you want them - tuner4g63. oil pan bolts are 10mm and i think there's about 16 of them or so. i believe the oil squirter bolts are 14mm and use a long extension. don't forget to grab the washers too. oh, and just as a heads up, there is a little "alignment pin" on them too so they don't spin around when you're torquing them down. so if you pull the bolt and they don't just fall out, wiggle it a little bit and they should drop out. you'll see what i mean once you get one out.

[tyrannix]

sounds very similar to the CA oil squirters, i *think* they were a 12mm bolt tho, not that it will make any difference.

and the power goal is around a 400+ powerband (as in almost the whole time the the turbo is spooled)

thats a kinda-sorta goal, its more for the learning experience/fun aspect of building the engine, and seeing what it can do before it blows up, and warps space/time, or just makes a mess in my engine bay, either one

and i am fully expecting to blow it up, only if it reaches that sorta goal will i stop trying to blow it up, and just drive it and be happy... probably needing much wider wheels in the process.... then beefier transmission ... then ARP bolts to connect the driveshaft to the diff..... then adamantium halfshafts

CJ

edit> hey... :ninja :ninja3 ninja icons

edit2> im almost planning to not use any beefy parts to start, just get the dual cam head on teh 20 block... and see what it does... then once its running, rebuild with forged goodies, balancings, and head (valve job + tomei springs and Dees stage 2 cam regrinds) the lightweight pullies, flywheel (maybe the twin plate, if i can get a 6 bolt flywheel for it, otherwise, i have a 6 bolt tomei flywheel) crank scraper....and the magnificent magnesium valve covers
Modified by tyrannix at 7:09 AM 8/29/2006

[tyrannix]

yeah, there were only 4 dsms there, and only one with an engine (not a turbo either) so yeah, i want them

tyrannix at gmail, i dont do AIM

also, it turns out that the pulsar is an 87, so i have been wroking on getting a CA16DE head, looking for stats now, anyone know off the top of your head cam specs and bore of the ca16de?

CJ

edit> yeah, ooks like teh 16 head isnt exactly going to do what i want... so ill just plan on using one of my extra ca18det heads until i can find an 18DE head

[rexhunta]

hmm 16de cam is good upgrade for anyone looking for an easy 5rwhp

My friends doing the same sorta setup.. but he's doing it this way...

CA20 Block.RB26 Pistons/rodsCA20Crank.CA18 headCA18 Tomei cams.

and 2 turbos...

should be good.. he's already 1/2 way there, as he has just pulled the pistons from his gtr to change them, aqnd he had good one ( the other 2 were cactus). He has knowledge, and he has a lot of machining ability.

ATM he has a 33 gtr, twin modified gt28s, 529rwhp. His new project is this silvia, which should be good.

Pete

[dash]

nissansilvia.com had a detailed ca20 thread by a long time member. Verdict ? said the exercise was a waste of time/money. He has crossed over to the darkside since... apparently waving sr20 pom poms.Yeah, its only one mans' opinion, but he's been there, done....

[float_6969]

I think the biggest problem you are going to run into is trying to find a rod and piston combo that is going to work well enough to hold up to boost and not order custom forgies.

[DeXteR]

i'll email you pictures next time i get out to pull the squirters for you - should be within the next couple days or so. then i guess make an offer and i'll get them ready to ship. we'll be in touch.

[tyrannix]

received teh tomei valve springs today, i dont even remember how long ago i ordered them ( RHDJAPAN.COM )

tried to order the idler pulley stud today, apparently they dont exist in anyones stock anymore, so i either have to find a way to extract one from that junkyard ca16, or use a different stud (i could probably order one from ARP with whatever thread i want, with the right diameter, as i have to tap threads for it anyway)

CJ

[float_6969]

I'd pull it from the CA16. Also, have you looked at a CA20 crank compared to a CA18 crank? Is the CA20 counterbalanced as well as the CA18 crank is?

[tyrannix]

I havnt disassembled the ca20e yet, its still on a pallat in the back of my truck, thats one of teh projects for this weekend (4 day weekend) is get the head off and oil pan at least, and look at it

im not going to disassemble it, as i want to just stick on the idler pulley, slap a DOHC head on it (both via the machine shop tapping threads for me) , and a turbo, and see how it likes to rev, what it does with the same turbo i had on teh ca18, etc

that will be the baseline. as im sailing in almost uncharted waters here, i want to have the engine, and have it run before i start upgrading it (getting the valve springs and 'stage 2' cam regrinds in, forgies and then the crank... my financial situation, and wether Fraz lives will decide on if i get teh nismo fully counterbalanced ca20 crank, or the $1400 (!) tomei one ... or if just some good machine work on the stocker will happen

supposedly a stock ca20 bottom end with a ca18 head will have a CR of 8.7, and as far as my engine theory tells me it could be ok with that if it had shorter rods (?)

so, that being teh case, i will try and lower the compression a bit (not too much, as the final engine will have huge cheater devices... ala water/methanol injection, and evans NPG+ coolant, along with the huge oil cooler, to help quell detonation at high boost

and without fully researching, the 3 options for rods sofar are 1. machined stockers 2. 4g63 3. rb26

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok so what are the options for making a biger CA? We should makea list of the different combos.

There's the way scorpile at nissanexa.com did his.He used a CA18(sohc) block and bored it out, and a CA16de headthat was shaved 1mm. for internals he used CA20 pistons withCA18 crank and rods.

CA16DE: 78mm/83.6mmCA18DE: 83mm/83.6mmCA20E: 84.5mm/88mmca20 block/CA20 crank = 2055ccCA20 block/CA18 crank = 2019ccCA20 Block/CA16 Crank = 1897cc

Option #1:I think if you used all the CA20 compents, you would need to useshorter rods so you can shave the block to get the timing beltto fit right. youd have the same bore and stroke so the cc'sshouldn't change.

Option #2:Use the CA20 block with the CA18 crank and rods with CA20pistons. You'd lose a little bit of the stroke but you'd stillhave a pretty big motor.

Any idea's about these setups?

I wish I had more detailed information about these motors, likehow long the rods are, the distance from the top of the crank tothe head, and just how much needs to come off of the CA20 blockfor the head to fit right. Dose anyone have this info?

Modified by tyrannix at 3:45 PM 9/2/2006

[ca18datsun510]

just a little help...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

[tyrannix]

just a little help...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

yeah, thats cool. its the same one i have (new 6 bolt tomei). in fact, i think i got it from the same guy... always bashing JWT and sme other importer on ebay... the guy sounds familiar.

i think ive bought a few things from him. He's rude, but gets teh job done

CJ

[Arther3]

I think the dsm oil squirters are ****...the guys i know with built dsm's deleted there's. I definitely wouldnt go with used ones because the spring in the ball and spring system inside can get stuck open from trash, and/or weakness due to fatigue, and drop your oil pressure. im not a big fan of oil squirters for most sporting events but drifting, i think they are necessary, so for my ca rebuild i think i will clean, check, and reinstall mine. on my ma70 supra though, i deleted them.

just MO, for what its worth.

[tyrannix]

the DSM ones have springs? id have to see one or a pic or something. (should be getting pics today of the ones in question) the CA ones are just a banjo type fitting and a tube that points at the piston, unless i was smoking crack when i reassembled my ca18 (?) it happens sometimes

CJ

edit> also, update. next week (probably monday) i drop off the block and head to the machine shop to get decked, head bolt threads tapped, and the idler stud installed. then just for fun, ill see about getting an sr turbo on there and dyno it with stock cams, intake plenum, and manifold, just to finally answer the question about the difference between a CA and SR having the same displacement and same turbo. see how it runs, then rebuild with all the fun parts
Modified by tyrannix at 9:13 AM 9/8/2006

[float_6969]

Definatly no check valve in the CA oil squirters. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind needing one?

[tyrannix]

just unloaded the CA20 and KA24E from the back of my truck (getting it ready for a trade in)

first time ive seen teh CA20, it was tied down to a mini pallat and covered with celophane and cardboard until now

the ignition system rocks teh house on it... 2 sparkplugs per cylinder (and the valve cover is nice)the distributer sticks out teh back of teh head and looks like an 8cyl dizzy... with 4 plug wires going on each side of the head...

so yeah, with the unfortunate incident with the crank on my ca18, i can spend the time getting the ca20 shortblock ready for the machine shop (just retapping head bolt holes and adding the idler pulley stud... with plastic over the pistons and anything we dont want metal bits in, so i can just bolt teh new head on and see how it flies)

[float_6969]

Check your other thread about the stripped crank bolt. It's not a big deal, I promise.

[tyrannix]

yeah, it happens, if that guy in san diego answers, im still going to pick up an extra crank (going to helicoil the current one, its got all the clerances right already)

just one more thing to drop off at the machine shop

[float_6969]

How close together are the cylnders on the CA20 that they can have a 84.5mm bore. I hope you don't plan on running crazy amounts of boost on that setup....

[tyrannix]

it should be the same as teh ca18 block

but for the first iteration, it will see no more than 1 bar of boost... if i can get the belt quick, i might just drop it in instead of the 18, now that the crank needs some work

Im not really planning on this being the be all end all or anything, im going to try to blow it up with 'moderate' ca18det settings, and see if it survives

CJ

[Nunook]

can the ca18det crank pulley bolt onto the ca20 crank?

[tyrannix]

the crank pullies look *really* close, except the 20 one only has 2 belts

sometime in the next few days, ill check it out, while prepping the 20 block to go to the machine shop

and to start with, on teh stock 20 block, 10-15 psi max, but when i build it (forgies crank girdle, oil squirters) then my goal is 2 bar. just have to figure out, no ****, the difference between ca20 rods vs ca18det rods

*or* theres a few people searching out tomei bits in japan for me

CJ

edit> and ill see if i can grab some pics when i take the head off the 20 block, and measure the total distance between cylinders vs an 18 block (83 vs 84.5 bore)

[datsunboy]

ca20 rods are piss tiny and weakdont expect to get much out of them

[tyrannix]

ca20 rods are piss tiny and weakdont expect to get much out of them

that being the case, then the evo rods and honda pistons will do for the rebuild (barring tomei stuff becoming spontaneously available to me) like fraz said

CJ

edit> just have to do some math and figure out the compression ratio on the stock swap, and what pistons to get to get the CR where i want it
Modified by tyrannix at 7:26 PM 9/12/2006

[tyrannix]

so, it turns out, No, the crank pullies are not the same

ca18det crank pulley ID 29.94mmca20 crank pulley 22.94mm

so, that means any of the following are solutions to the problem1 running the CA20 crank pulley (no PS, no problem)2 running the ca20 alt+PS pump3 machining a ca18det crank pulley to fit the ca20 crank4 machining a custom one-off new crank pulley5 running a CA18DET crank, and losing the extra stroke6 getting one of the stroker cranks (nismo, tomei, norris, what other one dont i know about?)

given the junkyard nature of this project (the slap it together version... before the build it up version)it will be safe to just use the ca20 pulley. it has the same ribs as teh ca18det one, its just a bit smaller in diameter 152mm ca18det vs 140.7mm for teh ca20