ITT: We talk about Unions (Right to Work law thread)

[Chaotic_Warlord]

So certain states have adopted a Right to Work law which allows companies to hire anyone they want irregardless of whether they have a union or not. These new employees don't have to join the union if they don't want to, this in turn has all the unions up in a fuss. What has them upset even more is that Congress is looking to passing this law nationwide giving all companies in every state (and their new hires) the option to use this. The unions don't like the law because, well it's obvious especially if you are familiar with unions. Personally I like the law for 2 reasons, first it allows all new hires to have the option to join the union if they want to or not, it's no longer a pre-requisite, secondly it pisses the unions off, which is always a good thing in my book. Unions are only good for keeping pay rates and benefits competitive, other than that they cost companies a fortune and their members are forced to pay due's which in these times, that's money that can be going towards bills.

I live in Philly, which is a notoriously pro union city, so much so that the unions have been known to bully non union companies off of job sites and in a lot of cases out of the area. The only unions I do like are the Order of Fraternal Police, Order of Fraternal Firefighters and the Teachers unions, the rest can F off. So how do you guys stand on the the whole Right to Work law and Unions.

I have already donned my flame suit, as I'm sure this is bound to get heated.

[themadscientist]

I believe unions are needed, but I do not believe they should have the right to close up a shop. I am all for right to work laws.

[dusred]

it pisses the unions off, which is always a good thing in my book.

100% agreed.

[themadscientist]

Let us not forget that unions arose to combat exploitative working conditions in the early industrialized world. If you think that the rapacious nature of business leaders has changed one iota, you would be wrong. In the total absence of unions business would.... I don't even have to engage in hypothetical, WalMart.

Now, that being said, unions in many industries have pushed the pendulum too far the other way. You can see that in a major aspect of the collapse of American car manufacture. Either extreme is detrimental. We need both advocacy forces to acheive any level of balance, but the closed Union shop is an unacceptable extreme. It was once suggested that non-union workers should not be afforded the benefits negotiated with the company by union pressure. I am not sure that is legal, and it sounds finky to me, but it is worth considering.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

I'd have an opinion on union workers, but while I've met union members, I've never actually met a union worker.

[PoorManQ45]

I'd have an opinion on union workers, but while I've met union members, I've never actually met a union worker.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I'd have an opinion on union workers, but while I've met union members, I've never actually met a union worker.

Yeah pretty much.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Speaking of unions, how many of you guys have seen these around... they're actually pretty common around here especially with the construction unions.

[LEMHEAD16]

Why does the rat have an ulcer on it's stomach?

As a business owner I would never hire someone who was part of a union. No third party has a right to affect (effect?) the way I treat my employees. No on is holding a gun to my employees forcing them to come in and work, if they don't like the conditions they can leave any time the choose.

I do understand there was a need for working conditions reform, during and shortly after the industrial revolution, but fighting for safety and health of workers is different than threatening a strike or closing up shop when they don't get every single concession in a contract negotiation. Unions have transformed from fighting for the worker, to just fighting the employer. They are no longer healthy for our economy.

Case in point UAW health benefits and pensions that total more $ per car than the metal used to fabricate a new vehicle.

[elwesso]

I can say in any MFG environment, unions are probably not needed. I don't really see how unions are needed at all, if people are getting shafted by the company they can leave and go somewhere else. I know its not always that easy, but still!

The company I work for has never had a union, and its been in business in the same place since 1912.. The company treats their factory employees fairly, and in return the guys in the factory work hard.. And, unlike many jobs where a monkey (or robot) could do their job, our machines are all customized and its all fabrication work (welding, grinding, machining, assembly, etc), so every person on the floor has very much a skill, and its very tough physical labor.. Most of the people that I have been around there can appreciate the job they do, and they work for it..

The people I do feel bad for that DID get these sweet benefits from a plush union job are those that got shafted, that got their insurance and pension taken away.. Should they have gotten it in the first place, probably not but when you depend on it and its taken away, there's not a lot you can do especially if you are retired and not able to work..

In a free market environment, you don't need unions to keep compensation competitive, that should take care of itself.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Like I said in my initial post the only unions I dont have a problem with are the FOP, FOFF, and the Teachers Union and that's only because they are government workers who work in hostile and potentially deadly work environments.

[infinitgkid]

Unions are parasites.

Like someone posted earlier, Unions force or "bully" non-unionized to close down because they don't conform to the union's rules or guidelines.

But the unions look out for the best interests of its members, right? Wrong!

If you apart of a union, you take a portion of your income to pay their membership fees and then they take that money to push their own agenda.

If you are in management or in a high position at an organization, a union is a all too common headache.

[Dattebayo]

If you apart of a union, you take a portion of your income to pay their membership fees and then they take that money to push their own agenda.

You act like it's a lot of money, tho. It's not at all, for unions that I know of...

As far as the agenda goes, you have about as much say as anyone does in America these days. So even tho I am with most of you guys on this, I say you need to look at another reason to complain about them.

[RobPaulson]

wasnt it the unions that caused the inefficient performance that lead to the collapse of GM, and cost the country millions in tax dollars? yeah.... i believe it was.

this isnt the 1920's, civil liberties and rights are observed much more strictly now than ever when unions were necessary. Unions are now just a way for employees to extort undeserved benefits and pay from companies. f*** Unions. Should be outlawed.

[Encryptshun]

Let us not forget that unions arose to combat exploitative working conditions in the early industrialized world. If you think that the rapacious nature of business leaders has changed one iota, you would be wrong. In the total absence of unions business would.... I don't even have to engage in hypothetical, WalMart.

Now, that being said, unions in many industries have pushed the pendulum too far the other way. You can see that in a major aspect of the collapse of American car manufacture. Either extreme is detrimental. We need both advocacy forces to acheive any level of balance, but the closed Union shop is an unacceptable extreme.

^ THIS

Mad, please move back to the U.S. and become a part of the political process.

Regarding the other comment about how unions aren't necessary because you can just go find a job somewhere else -- while of course that is technically true, the "pendulum" effect Mad talks about makes that a non-option, leaving workers with choices only between multiple companies all equally bad to work for.

In the current state, though, unions have forgotten the faces of their fathers.

[Jesda]

Wal-Mart treats its employees better than most in the retail sector. There's the store here or there thats an exception, but in general, its reasonably generous and they promote from within.

[Encryptshun]

I worked for Wal-Mart retail 15 years ago or so. I was paid fairly well (above minimum wage) and treated with respect from managers. Unless you were salaried you pretty much didn't get benefits, though, as they kept all their "full time" hourly employees to 39 hours worked because you needed 40 in order to qualify for insurance. Their employment values were first to comply with the law and second to offer a competitive local wage versus other non-commission retail positions.

[_b.jaye_]

im a union employee. here, some take advantage of it. most dont. its been nice, that when work slows, i dont sweat gettin laid off too much, which might seem like a crutch, but work loads pretty seasonal here, and really outside my control.

i dont feel like the salaried guys work any harder than i do, and its really rough to watch the company take advantage of the position they have over them when things slow just a bit, knowing an up-swings usually just around the corner.

sure, i agree the largest unions could definitely stand to have less influence than they do and lots of the people in them are probably given way more than their fair share. id think most unions do operate within reasonable expectations though.

as for the few public service unions being the only once needed, there are plenty of union workers out there riskin life & limb daily. my ol man & grandpa were both miners. one union, one not. safety's better than it ever has been for those guys sure, but if your non-union, refusing to do something thats a clear violation of a saftey practice doesnt mean you wont lose your job. i know, i know. theres legal recourse you could take, im sure. but that it comes to that just shows how badly companys, even today, still need to be kept in check.

[DamonDread]

Im on the fence with this one. There are things I like and dont like about unions. I have worked with a few union boys and most seem lazy, and feel everything is owed to them.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

My GF works for the school district of Philadelphia as a NTA which is not a teaching or administrative position, she belongs to a union, pays the union dues, and her and her position (and many others ) don't get anything from it. They don't get any real semblance of medical coverage, their pay sucks, the amount of hours worked suck, and really the don't do anything except suck in the dues.

Mining unions are an exception to the rule, of all the non governmental unions they are the only ones who actually really need to exist. The construction unions are a sham and cost business' twice what a non union construction company would charge. The UAW has a leg to stand on only because they have only semi preventing the domestic car companies from outsourcing. But they have stabbed themselves in the face by allowing the whole pension and medical debacle that damn near killed GM and brought Chrysler to its knees. Where as the Japanese car companies that have factories here in the states refuse to play the games the UAW like to play.

[numbnuts240]

The construction unions are a sham and cost business' twice what a non union construction company would charge.

how do you figure?

[bigbadberry3]

For unions. Yes sometimes they are too greedy but that is what arbitrations are for. Even then sometimes entire unions are let go. Earlier this year, an entire teachers union was let go in New Jersey.

[PoorManQ45]

This is a touchy subject.

Companies are currently too greedy and will very rarely, if at all, give out raises.

Unions are too greedy and demand raises for everyone.

Neither of these is a good situation.

[DamonDread]

This is a touchy subject.

Companies are currently too greedy and will very rarely, if at all, give out raises.

Unions are too greedy and demand raises for everyone.

Neither of these is a good situation.

[Bmore-coupe]

Damnit!! I thought we were discussing UNICORNS...

[Dattebayo]

The construction unions are a sham and cost business' twice what a non union construction company would charge.

how do you figure?

Yeah, the safety problems that miners have also exist in construction, derp. I can say, tho, for sure that the IBEW is a PITA and is expensive. But I'm not sure you'd want a non-union guy assembling a switchgear for a large building, either.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Yeah, the safety problems that miners have also exist in construction, derp. I can say, tho, for sure that the IBEW is a PITA and is expensive. But I'm not sure you'd want a non-union guy assembling a switchgear for a large building, either.

Seriously? I worked as a non-union low voltage electrician for a little over 3 years and have been on job sites where there were both union and non union guys The non union guys can and will do all the same work a union guy can and will do for 1/4 to 1/2 the price. The difference is that the union guys will always make it a hostile work environment for the non union guys especially if it's a government contract.

If you have a non union construction contractor build the same thing as a union contractor it'll get done for cheaper and in about 1/2 the time. I'm speaking from experience here... Just sayin'.

[numbnuts240]

you DO know why it is that non-union people are cheaper than their union counterparts, right? (i'm only talking about the construction aspect).

[Chaotic_Warlord]

you DO know why it is that non-union people are cheaper than their union counterparts, right? (i'm only talking about the construction aspect).

No please fill me in? You can't say it's because they're better trained, because that's not really the case.

[numbnuts240]

No please fill me in? You can't say it's because they're better trained, because that's not really the case.

some money does go to the union, some to medical insurance, pension, and depending on the union, some may also go to an annuity. i'm a member of the carpenter's union and my pay goes into all of that. non-union guys are responsible for their own benefits (for the most part) which is why they can bid work much lower than union shops.

as far as the money paid to the union out of the checks, some goes to the offices and their people, and some goes to union provided training. every so often, apprentices are sent to a training center to learn theory and hand skills that they need to do work in the field.

again, i can only speak for construction unions.