It's a serious problem that needs to be addressed - street racing.

[White Comet]

I'm not really so concerned about what a couple of guys do out on the north 40, in the middle of the night.

really? correct me if im wrong but i thought some of your posts said otherwise. im not being an a$$ or whatever, but i just thought i read different. i'd search for the post, but im kinda busy

[rn79870]

really? correct me if im wrong but i thought some of your posts said otherwise. im not being an a$$ or whatever, but i just thought i read different. i'd search for the post, but im kinda busy

No Comet. I've always been against Street racing. As in endangering other people on the road. If you do that, and get caught, I'm still going to chuckle, however, I don't think it calls for capital punishment.

[White Comet]

ok , i just thought from this post;

No, street racing is deadly on busy streets. It's bad (dangerous) everywhere. Times are different. When I was young, I could fire a .22 in my backyard without a problem. If I tried that today, I'd have the swat team on my a$$. Times, they have changed.

Yes, the older generation is against many things being done by the younger generation. It's not hypocritical, it's called learning by your mistakes.

that you thought it was bad anywhere.

but then this post seemed to contradict it

I'm not really so concerned about what a couple of guys do out on the north 40, in the middle of the night.

i might be wrong, so correct me if i am. even if you do say its ok to do in deserted places, where do u draw the line? whats to stop someone from thinking that it could be safe somewhere else. even in areas that have "no people" its still not a legally sanctioned event. again, im not trying to come off like an a$$, im just wondering

[rn79870]

Well Comet there is a small distinction there. The question is whether "deadly" and "bad" are the same thing. Like the distinction between capital punishment vs. imprisonment, the distinction between deadly and bad is rather clear.

I'm saying it's a bad idea anywhere other than a sanctioned track event. It is a (potentially) deadly event when two morons take it to a city street and decide that they are sufficiently skilled to drive 80, in a 30 mph zone in the midst of other (potential) traffic. In my book, that is the sign of a severe mental defect. At least the people who take it to some remote isolated location appreciate the dangers involved, and try to remove the public from harm. But they still run the risk of injuring themselves and incurring the wrath of the law. I never said I liked it, I said I wasn't concerned with it. My family isn't at risk by their behavior.

[WDRacing]

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about WC. The REAL threat are those that drive recklessly, not this supposed street racing plague. Most street races do not take place on crowded streets, sorry but that's just fact right there. Idiots that I've previously talked about are the ones driving around suburbia care free as fast as they can, with or without someone racing them.

Since I'm a subject matter expert, not someone that simply quotes a statistic, I think I have a pretty good grasp on what MY kind of people like to do and where they like to do it. Bare in mind I've traveled the globe and raced in many many countries.

The real threat aren't the street racers, they are the stupid people. If we could inoculate for stupid at birth I'd be all for it.

You can't say that street racing is ok in the "back 40" then condemn it in suburbia without including ALL forms of reckless driving. I'm not referring to red light runners either. I mean people that are doubling the posted speed limit, drifting around anything with a curve and blowing donuts in parking lots.

WD

[White Comet]

You can't say that street racing is ok in the "back 40" then condemn it in suburbia without including ALL forms of reckless driving. I'm not referring to red light runners either. I mean people that are doubling the posted speed limit, drifting around anything with a curve and blowing donuts in parking lots.

WD

this is what i was getting at

[rn79870]

Brian, I've noticed that there is a tendency here at NICO to offer the "look, there are other bad things, why should my bad thing be singled out" defense to many things. There are many kind of drivers who deserve to have their license sent to the moon. I can't argue that.

Let me ask you this. If you had a track nearby, would you use it?

[brizanden]

changed again
Modified by brizanden at 11:31 AM 5/7/2008

[audtatious]

I'm not referring to red light runners either. WD

Brian, I've noticed that there is a tendency here at NICO to offer the "look, there are other bad things, why should my bad thing be singled out" defense to many things.

OK you two, don't make me break out custom titles. I was making a point.

[rn79870]

Hey. Brian and I have respect each others opinion. We just disagree on this one. Sometimes we agree too. (Can we choose the others title?)

[WDRacing]

There will never be additional tracks installed simply to combat street racing...ever. There has to be profit involved for anything to succeed. So who's going to pay..the GOV? No...In fact, since you enjoy statistics, look up how many tracks there used to be compared to how many tracks there are now. We're losing tracks annually...it's a sad fact for me since I've enjoyed watching and participating in all forms of racing since I was a wee pup watching dirt track with my Dad.

As far as racing on the street and not the track goes it's just something I enjoy doing with the locals. There's a track within 20 minutes of me, when I was in Tucson there were 3 tracks within 2 hours, one was 15 mins up the road.

We meet up, hang out at the local car hop places like Sonic etc and just generally have a god time. Sometimes we race for braggin rights or cash. But this is the same thing my uncle used to do in his 69 Camaro. He brought me out when I was young and he was driving a GN. The camaraderie was awesome...it made me a car guy from the word go. My boy will be going with me this year. Irresponsible? Some will say yes. But if my boy is involved with something like this and he enjoys it, he's not huffing glue or smoking meth. He'll also become a better driver by hanging out and listening to people that REALLY drive. I used to listen to everything my Dad and Uncle had to say from scanning mirrors to over and under steer Car people rock...real car people anyway.

Wanna blame somebody, blame parents that suck. Parents that toss keys to a child that went through drivers ed...give me a fvcking break. D E didn't teach me a damn thing. Knee jerk reactions that penalize the many because of the few are and always will be a BAD IDEA.

I'm not saying we don't need to enforce the current laws we have in place, what I'm saying is that we don't need any new ones. Also, street racing isn't this plague that is killing us off one by one. It's literally on the bottom of the barrel when it comes to vehicular related deaths. The reason we get so stirred up is because of the exaggerated statements that make street racing sound like it's this new thing that is destroying our youth and murdering our families at every turn. If you actually want to change things you need to communicate to people on a level they can understand. Not all this hell fire and brimstone crap. Quit tossing statistics around that only prove that street racing is one of the lesser worries we have when it comes to traffic violations we need to work at fixing.

Like I've said before, you can get people to do anything you want, you just have to figure how to talk to them.

Don't say you're not concerned about the kind of racing I do, I AM A STREET RACER. I speak for my group because someone has to. I don't represent stupid. I represent those of us that exercise risk management and have the judgment skills required to ride a bike without a damn helmet. If you have a problem with your state and the idiots that drive there, fine. But don't drag us into the mix, we are NOT the same group.

WD

[brizanden]

ok time for a semi constructive post (wD be happy). I actually 100% agree with you. when i was young my dad got me straight into cart racing he had a 68 mustang he fully restored from a chasis and i would sit around on the floor of our garage and he would show me stuff i didnt understand then, but it was still cool. he would hand me a socket wrench and let me tighten bolts (prolly to just tighten more when i wasnt looking lol). I would go with him to drag races and swap meets. the culture of cars, and racing is like in my blood. My dad has taught me so much about them and still does. I honestly think he has made me the semi good driver i am for how yound i am. He didnt let me get my license till i was 17 which i think ended up to be a good thing. I've never had a ticket and avoided my fair share of would be accidents. Car people raise smart car people. It's the kid's like you said with no guidance that are truely fing up and wreeking havok on the world.

[rn79870]

I was with you Brian... all the way up to the end.

Here is what NHRA has to say about it.

It’s a desire as old as the horse and chariot. At times it’s nearly impossible to predict. It can start with a glance at a red light, or the rev of an engine. Sometimes, they’re planned in advance with precise organization.

But no matter what, it kills.

As many other legitimate drag racers and NHRA fans have pointed out via online chatrooms and internet blogs, the deaths could have been prevented. There are 140 NHRA-member tracks around the country that offer NHRA Street Legal Drags presented by AAA. Recently, NHRA and some of the elite drivers of the NHRA POWERade Series produced a video that will bring the 'Race the Strip, Not the Street' message to the public at their races, and other outlets like YouTube.

I’ve never been a fan of street racing, now or even when I was a kid,” said Tommy Johnson Jr., whose Monster Energy/Lucas Oil Dodge Charger covers a quarter-mile at just over four seconds. “Not only are you putting yourself in danger, you are also putting innocent bystanders at risk with all the elements that are out of your control when racing on the streets. Racing at an NHRA-sanctioned track is not only safer, it’s legal and won’t cost you your license.”

NHRA STREET LEGAL WORLD’S FASTEST DRAG RACERS SPEAK OUT AGAINST ILLEGAL STREET RACING

“I’ve never been a fan of street racing, now or even when I was a kid,” said Tommy Johnson Jr., whose Monster Energy/Lucas Oil Dodge Charger covers a quarter-mile at just over four seconds. “Not only are you putting yourself in danger, you are also putting innocent bystanders at risk with all the elements that are out of your control when racing on the streets. Racing at an NHRA-sanctioned track is not only safer, it’s legal and won’t cost you your license.”

Organized auto racing as we know today probably began on the Bonneville Salt Flats, with the forming of the Southern California Timing Association. A short time later, Wally Parks, a central figure in SCTA’s creation, founded the National Hot Rod Association to take racing from the streets to sanctioned tracks certified for safety and equipped with the latest in timing technology.

Today NHRA is still dedicated to giving all aspiring drivers a place to race.

It’s impossible to predict who will race on the street – men and women of all ages put themselves and others in danger by choosing to pursue their desire for speed on public roadways instead of at the track.

NHRA and the thousands of legitimate drag racers who use their talent for speed wisely urge them to choose otherwise.

To find an NHRA track near you, or for more information about Street Legal Drags presented by AAA, visit NHRA Street Legal

WHAT THE WORLD’S FASTEST DRIVERS SAY ABOUT RACING ON THE STREET

“As a professional drag racer I think it is my responsibility to let people know that illegal street racing is dangerous and senseless. In almost every community there is a safe place to drag race in an organized environment. If the professional and sportsman level racers don't speak out about the dangers of illegal street racing then legitimate drag racers will continue to get lumped in with these people that are breaking the law. We spend too much time on making sure we do things safely and by the book to have our great sport dragged down by people who are risking their lives and the lives of innocent bystanders.” - Robert Hight, Funny Car

“I think racing at a sanctioned race track has to be the smartest, safest thing to do. Get rewarded for going fast, as opposed to going to jail…or worse!” - Larry Dixon, Top Fuel

“I grew up without a local drag strip and it’s scary to see kids and people illegal street racing. I grew up in a racing family and knew the dangers and it’s a big part of the reason that I want to bring a strip to Northwest Arkansas, because illegal street racing is one of the most dangerous, foolish acts that people can do.” – Rod Fuller, Top Fuel

“Along with our sponsors at Checker Schuck’s Kragen, we got involved in a program called ‘Race on the Track, Never on the Street’ and it has been one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. Over the years, we’ve met with thousands of high school-aged kids, who are all just starting to drive and thinking about doing stupid things like racing on the street, and we’ve always been right in their faces about it. We never sugar-coated it or tried to be slick with them. We just told them, ‘Look, you’re going to learn from some of the mistakes you make in your life, but you might not ever have the chance to learn from this one. You could end up in jail, you could end up dead, or even worse, you could carry the death of a friend of yours with you for the rest of your life.’ There are NHRA tracks all over the country, where people will help you go fast. Drag racing is a wonderful sport that will thrill you for the rest of your life. Illegal street racing is just plain stupid, and very deadly.” – Del Worsham, Funny Car.

See the whole story at;http://www.nhra.com/streetlegal/

[WDRacing]

Bob, I don't care what the GOV has to say about it, nor do I care what the guys that get to do it and be paid for it have to say.

Will the Drag Racers pay for new tracks and for us to race for free whenever we want? Will they lower the cost of a friggin coke and burger to under 8 bucks at the tracks? Will they cover ALL the admission fee's we have to pay just to watch, let alone race?

Will the track open up during off hours just so we can come and hang out? Cause if they don't, we're not going...

Car people are going to flock together and when we do we often race...

*EDIT*

When we race, we do so in a safe manner, which totally goes against your original post. The only thing we lack are standbye medics and a "real" tree. I have been using the GTECH to time street racing for friggin years now. If it's such a bad thing, how come they allow the sale of an instrument that will measure G forces, hp and 1/4 times without the need for a track?

[brizanden]

^agreeded, but anymore if you meet the cops can break you up as an unlawful assembly cause apparently in many states u need a permit to get together to hang out.

[MaximA32]

The NHRA can say all they want. Just because they throw together a couple events in some po-dunk towns to get their warm and fuzzies doesn't mean that they're making a dent in street racing. I'll start seeing it working when they stop closing tracks or the NHRA starts building ones gratis.

[WDRacing]

They can only break you up if you cause a disturbance in most places. BUT, the local shop and restaraunt owners love us becuase we don't just sit outside the Sonic, we buy stuff and bring more bussiness. When we miss a night I've been asked personally if there was something wrong because they missed us. The cops can't make you leave private property if the owner wants you there.

WD

[brizanden]

yeah that makes sense, but what about when people here had a nico get togther in cali at the beach and the dock police made em leave? they were all parked and taking pictures and just chilling

[rn79870]

The NHRA can say all they want. Just because they throw together a couple events in some po-dunk towns to get their warm and fuzzies doesn't mean that they're making a dent in street racing. I'll start seeing it working when they stop closing tracks or the NHRA starts building ones gratis.

I can name a bunch of cities that have sponsored events at places like stadium parking lots and old airports. Staffed by volunteers and safety oriented people.

The bottom line is that street racing is illegal. So is shooting a gun in the air. Both can earn you a conviction for murder or manslaughter if a tragedy ensues. Are you really willing to risk that?

[brizanden]

^every autox i've been to was in a stadium or park parking lot. and its by scca, but im sure everyone was a volunteer. I know racers have to be corner marshals.

[WDRacing]

The bottom line is that street racing is illegal. So is shooting a gun in the air. Both can earn you a conviction for murder or manslaughter if a tragedy ensues. Are you really willing to risk that?

The whole point is that we know and accept the consequences Bob. We have known it's illegal for a long time now, yet we choose to do it anyway. All kinds of things are illegal and we do them anyway...ALL the time. Again you've brought up that people can be charged for murder and manslaughter...well they can get charged for the same things for numerous traffic violations. Even if they didn't mean to do it Bob. Hit a guy in a crosswalk cause you didn't see him...bam, jail for you buddy even though it was an accident. Does it always happen like that? No, but it can...just like we don't usually go to jail for murder, just like we race ALL the time and no one is hurt.

When you say things like that you're only weakening your stance, not improving it.

[rn79870]

...just like we don't usually go to jail for murder,...

That comment confuses me.

The interesting thing here is that you agree it's illegal, and that it is wrong, yet you defend it becasue "we've done if for a long time." What you're saying Brian, is that you agree with me, but you're willing to take the chance anyway. Right?

[WDRacing]

What I meant by the murder comment was that when we get sited for racing, we don't get prosecuted for murder. Even when a death is involved we often don't get prosecuted for murder etc, can it happen? Yes...just like you can get charged for murder by hitting a guy in a crosswalk.

I'm not defending it because it's been done for a long time, I'm simply stating for the record that yes, it's a long tradition among many car enthusiasts. It helps others to see things from my point of view if things are explained in full, rather then them just reading about deaths. That's all...I defend it because it's something I enjoy doing.

Yes it's illegal and yes I don't care. Sad truth I know, but that's who I am.

[Sil40_Mayhem]

Actually, 'murder' carries with it the connotation of some amount of premeditation. The term you two are looking for is 'manslaughter'.

Sorry, you guys were engaged in such a serious (if not heated) debate, and I thought I would bust up the party a little with some good old-fashioned nitpicking.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

[rn79870]

Actually, 'murder' carries with it the connotation of some amount of premeditation.

Well, you're close. Murder the term you are looking for is malice aforethought. Or premeditation. Under the common law, Murder in the 1st. degree involved the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. Poison, torture, or laying in wait.

The Murder we referred to was murder in the 2nd. degree. That occurs where the act inquestion involves reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (abandoned and malignant heart). Shooting at a passing train without an intent to hit anyone. Or driving in a careless, reckless manner without regard to the consequenses of the act. Even intentionally driving while intoxicated has lead to murder 2 charges. In California M1 and M2 carry "to life" sentences. 25 and 15 respectivly.

Whereas, an unlawful killing without mailce or intent is typically a manslaughter conviction. Most common is heat of passion type homicides.

We were correct in our use of Murder as a consequence of street racing.

[WDRacing]

Yeah, what he ^^^^^ said...thanks for playing though

[Sil40_Mayhem]

Well, you're close. Murder the term you are looking for is malice aforethought. Or premeditation. Under the common law, Murder in the 1st. degree involved the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. Poison, torture, or laying in wait.

The Murder we referred to was murder in the 2nd. degree. That occurs where the act inquestion involves reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (abandoned and malignant heart). Shooting at a passing train without an intent to hit anyone. Or driving in a careless, reckless manner without regard to the consequenses of the act. Even intentionally driving while intoxicated has lead to murder 2 charges. In California M1 and M2 carry "to life" sentences. 25 and 15 respectivly.

Whereas, an unlawful killing without mailce or intent is typically a manslaughter conviction. Most common is heat of passion type homicides.

We were correct in our use of Murder as a consequence of street racing.

Must vary by state. Around here, causing someone's death while driving drunk brings up charges of vehicular manslaughter, not murder 2. Getting in a car drunk, of itself, is not proof of malice. Not that I'm a student of the law in any way, but there are different statutes for involuntary manslaughter and murder 2 or 3.

Regardless, the game is still on, and I still interrupted your discussion. WIN!

[MaximA32]

I can name a bunch of cities that have sponsored events at places like stadium parking lots and old airports. Staffed by volunteers and safety oriented people.

The bottom line is that street racing is illegal. So is shooting a gun in the air. Both can earn you a conviction for murder or manslaughter if a tragedy ensues. Are you really willing to risk that?

Bob, your definition of murder is slightly skewed in this instance. Murder, by definition, is to knowingly and willfully take someone's life. Manslaughter, by definition, is the unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury. Granted that both can be considered homicide but murder includes pre-meditation as manslaughter does not. So, if you wish to continue using anyword to describe it. Use homicide or manslaughter, as murder, in this case, is the incorrect word to describe the situation.

[Sil40_Mayhem]

Bob, your definition of murder is slightly skewed in this instance. Murder, by definition, is to knowingly and willfully take someone's life. Manslaughter, by definition, is the unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury. Granted that both can be considered homicide but murder includes pre-meditation as manslaughter does not. So, if you wish to continue using anyword to describe it. Use homicide or manslaughter, as murder, in this case, is the incorrect word to describe the situation.

Merriam-Webster (dictionary) agrees with you, as do I.

Okay guys, go back to the debate. It was just getting good.

[rn79870]

I've given the classic common law definition of M1, M2 and Manslaughter. All involve an unlawful homicide, M1 adds malice aforethought, and M2 typically involves the abandoned and malignant heart. One is intended, the other is the result of an intentional act resulting in an intentional act.

Murder does not require either spite or premeditation. Mercy killing can be murder, so can a killing where the intent is conceived on the instant. Malice Aforethought involves the thoughts and intentions behind a wrongful act, including knowledge that the act is illegal. Abandoned and malignant heart means you cared not what the results of the action might be.

M1 requires premeditation. - Malice aforethought.M2 requires Malice, but does not require premeditation. Malice can be inferred from the circumstances of the crime, even if the actor lacked intent to kill - abandoned and malignant heart. Malice is inferred where the acts involved are basically anti-social in nature, and such that a normal person would see the activity as involving a high risk of danger.

Voluntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice, as in the heat of passion or upon sudden quarrel. Typically, these acts occur when there is no time to reflect on the act that caused the homicide.

M2, and Vol Manslaughter are lesser included offenses in M1. Vol Mans is a lesser included offense in M2. Invol Manslaughter is a lesser included offense in VM. That's why a defendant can be charged with M1 and convicted of Vol Manslaughter.

This is a very common law application of the principles, however, it is one that California follows. And yes, you can get charged with M2 in CA of you drive intoxicated and kill another, especially if it is seen as involving an abandoned and malignant heart. (IE, you knew you were too drunk to walk, so you drove).

Merriam-Webster is hardly a source here. Look at Black's Law dictionary, or better yet, your state's penal code.