Is the KA24DE sensative to bolt ons?

[feint240]

off topic but what is "obd II". ive been reading this thread for a while..its funny to watch the boosters and "n/a..ers..." go at it.

[S13ChucKAT]

On Board Diagnostics.. Its basically a much more intense Emissions control computer in your car.. That way, it moniters all aspects of your emissions, and when you go to get your car inspected.. they just plug in the diagonistic port, and if you have no codes, you pass.. that illeminates the need for havening to do the butt-dyno-sniffer test..

Quote »in the long run huh?? who knew that cramming all that air and fuel was good for ur engine.. not to mention all that extra heat .. doesnt oil break down under extreme temperatures.. oh wait.. he probably uses castrol gtx.. hehe [/quote]... Depends on what you consider good for your engine.. people who waste THOSANDS on cams/headwork/intake/exhaust/manifolds/pulleys/flywheel, and a crapload of NA garbage, can easily dish out the same amount for a safe, self tuned, turbo kit, boosting a low 7psi, and still outpreform, and probably outrun a HEAVILY modded NA'd 240... Until i see otherwise, im sticking to using stock internals, stock head/valve train, stock everything except an exhaust, and a turbo kit, will totally own a fully NA car.. (Nitrous isnt considered NA BTW..)

For the NA heavy.. Face it.. theres no way to get around F-I, F-I will always be better than NA.. its a proven fact.. time and time again. until i find a motor that reacts better to NA than forced induction, Im afraid F-I is the way to go..

[feint240]

aww dammit..so what "codes" does the sr or other japanese engines put out...

[S13ChucKAT]

well.. see the funny thing is, the jap's dont care abuot there emissions, so they dont put any onboard diagonostics on there cars.. nothing emissions related.. they like to polute, anywho, there will be no diagnostic tool to scan your car.. so they would have to do the butt dyno.. and you would fail NOX levels.

[Chingon]

OFor the NA heavy.. Face it.. theres no way to get around F-I, F-I will always be better than NA.. its a proven fact.. time and time again. until i find a motor that reacts better to NA than forced induction, Im afraid F-I is the way to go..

i disagree...

aerodynamics is for those who don't know how to build engines..Enzo Ferrari

turbo is for those who don't know how to build engines..Billzilla.

[S13ChucKAT]

well im saying, per example..

like NA sr20 is worse/slower than a turbo'd

cant compare a turbo SR20 to like.. some big block chevy. that not fair. comparing apples to mig welders. in almost every given situation, More HP can be achieved through forced induction

[Chingon]

even then...





sure the turbo engine may produce more power, but how does that make it a better engine? Will you be able to modulate throttle and brake the same way as with the pictured na in a circuit course or downhill togue?

turbo may still take road and 1/4 mile, but that only makes it a "better" engine for that racing category and even then, it's not a sure thing.....

in other words, one thing is smooth, predictable, and usable power, and another is brute, i'm gonna **** my pants power.

[hotboy_intrigue]

PDM Racing has a dyno chart on their website. With stage1 cams, intake, exhaust, underdrive pulleys, and dyno tuning their ka made around 163 whp, so 170 whp shouldnt be that hard to achieve, but 190 whp is a different story.

MAYBE (emphasis on maybe) with a nice port/polish job, pdm racing's non streetable camshafts, an aftermarket intake manifold (which i dont think exists) dyno tuning, adequate fuel managment and delivery, header, high compression pistons, a three angle valve job, and a stand alone ecu the ka24de MIGHT see 190 whp. But that is a lot to hope for.

[InsanityInc]

Look at dynos for adding different cams to a KA24DE. The most significant gains are made after the horsepower starts to drop off. The KA24DE has a breathing problem. The intake manifold runners are way, WAY too long to support adequate breathing at ~7000rpm. Changing the intake manifold is the first step in making power with a N/A KA, since it will allow you to get your horsepower peak up near/past factory redline with aftermarket cams. Unfortunately, this seems to be a custom job for the time being. I talked with James from Wasabigarage.com, and he said he had an intake manifold in the works for the DE, but there wasn't any demand for it so he started working more on toyota projects.

The runners on the DE are over a foot long. The intake manifold should be a high-priority upgrade, but people instead choose to go with more "conventional" methods without examining the actual problem of lacking power productin.

[cory2081]

Ok, after reading this, I didn't hear a darn thing about torque. Torque is where it is at, horsepower is just a number....

"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."Carrol Shelby

Try taking what the KA already has and make it better. You're only going to get so much HP out of a long stroke engine with a major breathing problem. No sense in trying to make it rev like a Honda on crack...lol. If you like high revs, thats fine, but a high revving engine doesnt necessarily make a good all around street car. Set the KA up to make maximum power at about 6,500 and keep that torque band good and low. I'm sure everyone on here has eaten a Honda for lunch with a mostly stock KA even though Hondas make more HP. The reason the KA wins is b/c it makes more torque than the Honda. I'm not trying to bash Hondas, I respect all cars. I just cant stand the fact that you have to keep them at 6,000rpm to get up a hill......when the KA can maintain speed on that same hill in 5th gear at 2,000.....lol.

[240sxHitman]

not to high jack but i wanna say reading what u guys wrote is givin me a better insight on what i can do to my car. i wanted to get a SR but i also hear good things bout the KA-t and N/a KA. i guess it would go to begin wat u prefer and the use of the power. out of the three what pushes out more Torque?

[hotboy_intrigue]

a ka-t will always push more torque than sr-t with the same horsepower numbers because of the higher displacement. BUT the sr has more potential for power. the ka's weakness is in its stroke (too long). you could always get an sr20 and buy the 2.4L stroker kit for it and you would be pushing close to the same amount of torque as a ka.

[keepingthe240]

You mean the 2.2 liter stroker kit. Also(listed above)..you can get 190whp might easily. Open your mind and it'll come to you how to make it

[jmauld]

Just as a another data point, I've dyno'd 150whp, 157 torque.

That is with:pullies, aluminum flywheel, ebay intake, 3" cat-back and tuning ignition timing.

I agree with the above thoughts that there is a lot of power to be found in the intake manifold.

[feint240]

hows your idle with the pully and flywheel? any problems? or other mods u HAD to do cuz of them? thanks

[feint240]

double post sorry.

[jmauld]

It idles fine. Occassionally, the idle will drop a little lower then normal, but not close to stalling the car.

I didn't have to do any other mods to use those parts, and I haven't ran into any problems yet.

The only issue was that I couldn't get the alternator pulley installed. My impact wrench wasn't strong enough to break the bolt loose.

[feint240]

so you got the whole set? where how much? ]

back on topic...NA's fun, turbos fast blah blah blah

[jmauld]

I got them straight from unorthodox when they were closing out the sets. I think they were around $280, but I don't remember for sure.

[frapjap]

If you cut out the intake runners, the car loses a good amount of its torque. Sure, you can make more hp, but you need something to push you through. Why not try the overlapping cam swap like the v8s do?

[feint240]

can u embellish on this overlapping cam setup? i dont know much about v8s....

[InsanityInc]

You'll lose some torque, but not all that much. Plus, your powerband is going to be much, much, MUCH better. Over in the intake manifold thread they posted a SR that went to a short runner manifold. lost 9 peak torque (out of 330 or something), but it made within 5% of the peak all the way to redline, and gained 38 horsepower.

[InsanityInc]

Quote »

Try taking what the KA already has and make it better. You're only going to get so much HP out of a long stroke engine with a major breathing problem. No sense in trying to make it rev like a Honda on crack...lol. If you like high revs, thats fine, but a high revving engine doesnt necessarily make a good all around street car. Set the KA up to make maximum power at about 6,500 and keep that torque band good and low. I'm sure everyone on here has eaten a Honda for lunch with a mostly stock KA even though Hondas make more HP. The reason the KA wins is b/c it makes more torque than the Honda. I'm not trying to bash Hondas, I respect all cars. I just cant stand the fact that you have to keep them at 6,000rpm to get up a hill......when the KA can maintain speed on that same hill in 5th gear at 2,000.....lol. [/quote]

Horsepower does matter. Torque matters too, but losing a few torque to gain a bunch of horsepower and make the car overall much more responsive to mods is a good tradeoff in my book.

[Chingon]

An sr is in no ways similar to a ka. It's a forced induced, lower displacement, higher revving engine than a ka. That's why it benefitted from shorter runners.

[InsanityInc]

What about that ITB SR up there? That one's N/A. Forced induction doesn't matter, I already went over this. Your manifold still controls wether or not you can get a maximum cylinder fill at higher rpms, thus why the original graph died out pretty bad up high. The SR also doesn't rev that much higher than a KA. Only goes to 7500 in that graph that was posted.

[Chingon]

You said it yourself. that's an itb setup, not a mani w/a single tb. And that up there is an sr race engine manufactured by toda. I'd bet it spins at 12k rpm easily. That's why the short "runners" (thrumpets) work.

[InsanityInc]

That's why it needs something less restrictive, not why it "works". I bet that if you put it on a dyno that it makes it's peak torque starting from about 5000 or so.

[S13ChucKAT]

...... Forced induction doesn't matter, I already went over this. Your manifold still controls wether or not you can get a maximum cylinder fill at higher rpms,.....

actually you are incorrect.. its not the manifold that matters, its your valvetrain.. when (turbo app) you build boost, it holds a pressure in your intake manifold.. lets say you boost 10psi.. that means in your intake manifold/charge piping, there is 10psi stuffed in there.. its up to your valve train to be able to suck it all in.. its not the manifolds fault.. its the valves.. Now in NA, theres a theory..

TORQUE ----------------------- HPLONG RUNNERS --------Short runners

look at hondas.. they have what.. 3" runners.. while our nissans have runners anywhere from 12" - 18" long... im willing to bet if someone made a long runner manifold for there honda, it would gain torque.. now for an NA application, drag race/auto-x etc etc.. short runner's would be the choice of the hardcore guys, because you are usually hanging around 4-5k anyways.. so you wont "actually" need torque. but for daily drivers, and turbo guys.. our long runners would be just fine..

[InsanityInc]

Quote »actually you are incorrect.. its not the manifold that matters, its your valvetrain.. when (turbo app) you build boost, it holds a pressure in your intake manifold.. lets say you boost 10psi.. that means in your intake manifold/charge piping, there is 10psi stuffed in there.. its up to your valve train to be able to suck it all in..[/quote]That's not correct actually. If it was, then changing the intake manifold wouldn't have helped his car breathe higher on the top end (the turbo SR graph that was posted). There's generally pressurized air in the plenum, but the air in the runners is almost always bouncing back and forth, and not at a constant pressure, so when your valves open, the air has to travel up the runners, unless you're at an RPM that catches the reversion wave correctly. An engine that makes 140 torque is burning X amount of fuel and air. If the same engine makes less than 140 torque somewhere else in the powerband, then you're burning less than X fuel and air. It can be due to the cams, but when we're talking about an engine with 264 degree cams dying off at 5000 rpms, there's a pretty good chance that's not the problem.

Quote »TORQUE ----------------------- HPLONG RUNNERS --------Short runners[/quote]Not quite correct. Long runners make more torque, due to the incoming air being able to build more velocity and create a forced induction effect, but cannot breathe properly at higher RPMs, so the shorter runner manifold makes less torque at low RPMs (though not all that much), but maintains that torque number much better through high rpms, and thusly makes more torque and more power at high rpms. If you have an engine that has long runners and breathes properly already, then shortening the runners isn't going to help. However, that's not the case with the KA, as it does not breathe properly above 4200 rpms or so, when the torque starts to fall.

Quote » look at hondas.. they have what.. 3" runners..[/quote]not all of them, but the higher revving ones do. Quote »while our nissans have runners anywhere from 12" - 18" long... im willing to bet if someone made a long runner manifold for there honda, it would gain torque..[/quote]Yes, it would gain low-end torque, but if it was something high-revving like a type-R, or an s2000, then you would lose high end horsepower, because your torque would start to die much earlier.

Quote »now for an NA application, drag race/auto-x etc etc.. short runner's would be the choice of the hardcore guys, because you are usually hanging around 4-5k anyways.. so you wont "actually" need torque. but for daily drivers, and turbo guys.. our long runners would be just fine..[/quote]No, see, this is what you're not getting. It's not like you're going to have half your normal torque if you have shorter runners and just magically gain hp. You still have low-end torque, just not as much. You breathe better at the high-end, so you make more torque on the high end, which translates to more power.