Is Going Green a Fad?

[Reed19x]

Subject says it all. This is not meant to start arguments, just curious as to what the Nissan community thinks. Going "green" gets more and more expensive, for example...organic food costs more than "regular" food, hybrids cost more than normal gasoline cars, diesel costs more than gasoline (in some areas) etc. With the state of the economy, is going green even possible for people on a budget? Perhaps this is just a fad, perhaps green living is here to stay. What do you guys think?

[VersaMG08]

I wouldn't say it's a fad. There are people who take this sort of stuff serious, however I don't.

Going green is up to whoever chooses to do so. It's not forced upon, but recommended for the sake of nature. However, when the government and environmentalists bring their politics with them, create laws and restrictions that common folks have to conform, then it's a way of manipulation of choice which restricts freedom. I'd prefer not to bring politics nor offend anyone, but it's a popular ideology of the Democrat party and they reflect the opposite of my beliefs.

[Papercarz]

I think alot of the "green" fad is just being on the cutting edge of technology. Replacing bulbs with LED's or CCFL's. Hybrids/ electic cars are the cutting edge of automobile technology. Many computers company's are striving to create LCD's that draw absolutely no power when in standby mode and good things like that. Have you heard of OLED's?

[BBISHOPPCM]

I honestly believe this is a fad; not a particularly bad one, at that. The truth is, we all need to reconsider how we waste resources in our day to day lives. For instance, it's 75 degrees outside, and my windows are open; but I have my gas furnace cranked to 95 degrees, and my three air conditioners cranked. I regularly sleep with my lights on... all of them (and I use carbon-arc lights in my fixtures - nothing but the best). To save time lost by starting my car every morning, I never shut it off. I print all my emails on a 20 year old Laserjet, on pure virgin paper. I use a different computer for everything; one for email, one for web access, one for Nico, one for games, and another for word processing; and I leave them all on at the same time.

In all seriousness, I do not believe the answer to living "green" is to run out and buy a $50,000 Prius, or to install CCFLs in every light fixture, because we're trading one problem for a dozen others. Remember, the Prius uses far more harmful chemicals and non-renewable resources (metals used in the batteries, for instance), and will eventually need replacement batteries (to the tune of several thousand dollars). I never believed in hybrid technology because I know we are capable of much better. Hybrid is a band-aid, nothing else. CCFLs contain harmful levels of mercury, which is something I was led to believe we were going to move away from... it's far too easy for a child to break a CCFL bulb and wind up poisoned or severely cut from the glass tubing which is more rigid than the typical glass envelopes of incandescent bulbs. I actually see a future in low voltage LED lighting; if a fixture was designed right, the possibilities are endless! You could easily adjust the hue and color temperature in an LED bulb, thus eliminating the psychological effects caused by the cold, unnatural light provided by a CCFL.

[srellim234]

Around here it's more status-symbol than doing it for the seriously right reasons. But, in any increment, going green is better than not doing anything at all.

I replaced every light bulb in the house with CCFL bulbs and fixtures as the incandescent bulbs started burning out back in the mid '90s and we've never had a problem with a broken bulb.

Our wall-unit air conditioner is designed for a room the size of our house so the few times we actually do turn it on it doesn't have to run much and cools the area we hang out in; namely the living/family room and dining room. The thermostat is at 65 in the winter and 82 in the summer.

We installed drip sprinklers because I couldn't see watering the rocks around here. We have dwarf fruit trees and vegetable plants in half barrels mainly because it's easier on me not to deal with the ground here.

We don't really do any of these or the other "green" things we do for purely noble reasons. That it's the right thing to do helps but we do them more for economic reasons. As an example, even in months when we have those 100+ heat stretches our electric bills never go above $75. And that's with night lights, a tv and the computer running 24/7.

Interesting that they keep working on renewable lithium batteries. There is not enough lithium in the ground to build batteries for all the electric and hybrid cars they're talking of building and the methods used to get it out of the ground are incredibly polluting and damaging to the environment.

[Red Devil]

Right now it's a status thing. Hopefully with more vehicles like the Insight, it'll be more avilable to the general public.

[MinisterofDOOM]

It's a fad. There were, are, and always will be people who take it seriously and for whom it is more than a fad. But MOST people are just in it because it's the current fad. Most people who are "green" probably don't even understand what they're doing. They just sort of stumble along blindly after the mainstream ideas of the fad. They have no legitimate reason for being "green" aside from wanting to follow the fad. They don't actually care about the impact they have on things. They're doing it to LOOK like they care.

I make no pretenses either way. I don't care and don't act like I do.

[grogman]

my feeling about all this is.............this isn't politic play........it's capitalist play........any really good renewable energy idea like repetitive motion and self recharging ideas have been bought out by big oil, patented and hidden away. big oil has too much on the plate with all thought going towards fossil fuel research and drilling. when there is a permanent low production of fossil fuels, the oil companies will have the next great energy source ready for the switch. one good idea that is out there is making clean fuel out of coal. the coal supplies are vast and endless so refining it would be the only switch. natural gas and propane is intriguing for auto use but for some reason right now we don't use that technology. phoenix has buried fuel lines to supply gas stations, maybe that same idea will be implemented with natural gas. my feeling about all this is that the corporate world controls all of this and the feds just go after them for taxes.out.

[marlin29311]

It's half and half really...as mentioned above, most people are doing it so that they can look good to everyone else - you don't want to be the only one not going green, right? Conservation of resources and making things more efficent is beneficial for everone in the end - just look at your cars - engines put out more power and use less fuel than ever before - that saves you money, and allows you to do more. It's definately a good thing, but some people have turned the real purpose of going green around into something it really shouldn't be...

[fjwagner]

my feeling about all this is.............this isn't politic play........it's capitalist play........any really good renewable energy idea like repetitive motion and self recharging ideas have been bought out by big oil, patented and hidden away. big oil has too much on the plate with all thought going towards fossil fuel research and drilling. when there is a permanent low production of fossil fuels, the oil companies will have the next great energy source ready for the switch. one good idea that is out there is making clean fuel out of coal. the coal supplies are vast and endless so refining it would be the only switch. natural gas and propane is intriguing for auto use but for some reason right now we don't use that technology. phoenix has buried fuel lines to supply gas stations, maybe that same idea will be implemented with natural gas. my feeling about all this is that the corporate world controls all of this and the feds just go after them for taxes.out.

Please provide supporting documentation for your claims. Fact is, hydrocarbons are and will be for quite some time the most economic alternative. Any viable alternative will require extensive infrastructure which will take a generation or two to implement. However, I agree with you about coal but our illustrious president wants to kill off the coal industry.

[frankoV]

nope . . . not a fad . . . too much money to be made in it . . . starting with research grants and continuing with planned obsolescence.

The nations "becoming green", though, will not happen until it is economically worthwhile to do so.

[Rockhound]

However, I agree with you about coal but our illustrious president wants to kill off the coal industry.

I dunno, the coal industry has huge lobbying pull in Washington - and politicians are just eating up the whole idea of "clean coal", even though it's a farce. The technology for sequestration of CO2 from coal plants supposedly is still 20 years out - despite the ads running on TV, there currently are no "clean coal" facilities in operation in the US.

...one good idea that is out there is making clean fuel out of coal...

Using natural gas in electricity generation emits 50% less CO2 than coal, yet nearly 50% of the electricity in the US comes from coal-fired plants. Methane is a very clean burning fuel due to its purity. And of course there's the surface damage coal mining can bring about compared to the relatively minor surface obstruction of a producing natural gas well. Other sources include nuclear, which accounts for 21% (and we're deathly afraid of another Chernobyl) and hydropower 6% (oh no, the dams hurt the fish!). Only about 19% currently comes from natural gas-powered plants despite our surplus/reserves of CH4.

States like Pennsylvania and West Virginia have more political pull than many of the oil/gas producing states in the mid-continent and gulf region. So despite the fact that we have massive natural gas reserves with which we could be generating our electricity, we still use much more pollutant coal due to lobbying power. How's that for going green?

And while we're on the topic of going green...as much as I like Mr. T. Boone Pickens' contributions to my alma mater, there are some major drawbacks to his wind farm plan - one, that the primary "wind corridor" in the US is distant from major population centers, and second, that as of yet, there is no way to storehouse electricity - plants have to run within a few percent of the current power demand - and you can't just flip a switch and turn on the wind when you need it to turn your generators. Not windy one day with peak demand, but really windy with little demand? You're hosed. Also, transmitting electricity over long distances is still a challenge due to basic circuitry physics (think Ohm's law) and not all states have compatible power grids.

I think this all comes down to the question of how much are we willing to pay for environmental purity?

[mcheddadi]

Subject says it all. This is not meant to start arguments, just curious as to what the Nissan community thinks. Going "green" gets more and more expensive, for example...organic food costs more than "regular" food, hybrids cost more than normal gasoline cars, diesel costs more than gasoline (in some areas) etc. With the state of the economy, is going green even possible for people on a budget? Perhaps this is just a fad, perhaps green living is here to stay. What do you guys think?

it's the cool responsible thing to do now, and I think its here to stay.Polution fails and hydrogen cars are soo much cooler anyhow

[mcheddadi]

I wouldn't say it's a fad. There are people who take this sort of stuff serious, however I don't.

Going green is up to whoever chooses to do so. It's not forced upon, but recommended for the sake of nature. However, when the government and environmentalists bring their politics with them, create laws and restrictions that common folks have to conform, then it's a way of manipulation of choice which restricts freedom. I'd prefer not to bring politics nor offend anyone, but it's a popular ideology of the Democrat party and they reflect the opposite of my beliefs.

oh and btw, living in society = conforming to its rules.only other option is to go to a place that isn't a country and that doesn't have a government. Now you'll be free to do whatever you want, lots and lots of freedom. strongest wins and weakest die. i'm weak so i'll just take my nice society, kthxbai.

[VersaMG08]

oh and btw, living in society = conforming to its rules.only other option is to go to a place that isn't a country and that doesn't have a government. Now you'll be free to do whatever you want, lots and lots of freedom. strongest wins and weakest die. i'm weak so i'll just take my nice society, kthxbai.

Whatever you say man...

[mcheddadi]

Whatever you say man...

[BlueMango]

it's the cool responsible thing to do now, and I think its here to stay.Polution fails and hydrogen cars are soo much cooler anyhow

I'm going to have to agree somewhat. I do think it's here to stay but I think the methods of going green (ie hybrid cars, ccfl bulbs, etc) are the fad and will ultimately give way to something that truly is green.

[fjwagner]

I dunno, the coal industry has huge lobbying pull in Washington - and politicians are just eating up the whole idea of "clean coal", even though it's a farce. The technology for sequestration of CO2 from coal plants supposedly is still 20 years out - despite the ads running on TV, there currently are no "clean coal" facilities in operation in the US.

Start with western US coal which is already cleaner burning than the eastern coal. If we don't use it, the Chinese will. Disagree with your 20 years out. Coal burning is already cleaner in modern plants than it used to be.

[frankoV]

Coal burning is already cleaner in modern plants than it used to be.

Doesn't matter -- the mouthpieces have deemed burning coal the greatest sin alive [next to not recycling]. WE NEED MORE WIND TURBINES!!! Except . . . it costs so darn much to produce them, they affect the people who live near them, and [shhhhhh] it takes so much energy to make them!

[Rockhound]

Start with western US coal which is already cleaner burning than the eastern coal. If we don't use it, the Chinese will. Disagree with your 20 years out. Coal burning is already cleaner in modern plants than it used to be.

Oh, I know what you mean. Some anthracite will burn pretty clean.

And it's certainly not my opinion that we should just up and quit using coal for electricity generation, either. My only point is that the advanced CO2 sequestration that is being touted as the future of coal plants to appeal to green-minded folks is still in development and as yet, not being implemented - at least this is what I've read about. I'm not really even arguing that it needs to be developed, as it's doubtful capturing incremental CO2 would have any noticeable effect on the climate now, or ever, really - the current techniques are so much better than the old that it's likely a minimal gain.

It does bug me that they are trying to give themselves green "cred" with the general public when the fact remains that methane burns much cleaner than the best anthracite. I just think that natural gas presents itself as a logical choice for a 'bridge' fuel in multiple facets until some reasonable alternatives come along. And those who are really 'green' should know that it is a clean burning fuel that can be extracted with minimal surface impact. I am biased, though, as I said, the company I work for is almost entirely a gas exploration company. But we do have pretty vast reserves here in the states and it's a shame that the stuff is so cheap right now that you can barely make an economic well.

[frankoV]

Fact is, RH, that the green team is so loud that no one can hear anyone else . . . and when anyone disagrees with their scientific postulations they yell even louder: "how dare you disagree with me -- I know better -- and don't you care about the earth?". Next it'll be anti-patriotic not to funnel money into the green movement [not green technologies]. Just wait until cap-and-trade takes over -- all it is is money for poorer countries. While I have no problem with international support, at least be honest: cap-and-trade is a tax on industrial/modern/wealthy countries that goes to non-industrial countries. We'll be told that it will help the people to modernize -- I fear the money will go straight into the leaders' bank accounts.

[MinisterofDOOM]

On the subject of coal:I was raised by a career geologist who works directly in the field of coal produced energy. I have some views on the matter and find the "facts" about horrible dirty coal held by most people to be irritatingly inaccurate. Coal is a HUGELY abundant resource in the US. It is cost-effective and can be clean. Ignoring it is foolhardy.

Fact is, RH, that the green team is so loud that no one can hear anyone else . . . and when anyone disagrees with their scientific postulations they yell even louder: "how dare you disagree with me -- I know better -- and don't you care about the earth?".

Very much agreed. And the sad part is they don't realize the severe negative impact this has on their cause. Making people feel guilty by attacking their values is not the way to win their support.

I love the earth, but I'm what you might call an expansionist. I also only value the earth so far as it is of value to me. That is to say that the earth is meaningless if there are alternatives. There are NOT right now, but by the time the earth is in such a sorry state as to not be able to support humanity, the epitome of intelligent-adapatation, there WILL be alternatives. So I see it this way: I will enjoy myself while I am here and I will count on those who follow me to do their part to make their way out of their dependency on this planet. We cannot hold back progress for the sake of this planet forever. We should certainly not ruin it, but we are not beholden to it unless we allow ourselves to be. And we are certainly doing that right now by shunning space exploration.

Anyone concerned with environmental science from an intelligent point of view and not a fanatical greenpeace point of view should look into the works of genius and earth scientist Freeman Dyson. His name should be on the forefront of everything right now but he disagrees with the fanatical environmentalists (gee, whodathunk, a real intelligent educated scientist disagreeing with fanatics and the mainstream media ) so he's ignored by those who look no further than the pages of their favorite biased newspaper. He also disagrees that there is imminent environmental peril hanging inches over our very heads and waiting to come crashing down the next time I start my V8. He explains how the now-cliché popular descriptions of how climate change is hurting things are such drastic oversimplifications as to be irrelevant to reality. He also shares my opinion that the fanatical over-focusing on being green is irresponsible as it is taking focus (and funds and efforts) away from vastly more important issues like poverty and disease.

In my opinion men like Al Gore who aggressively push their green agendas on the world inciting changes they don't understand are the purest evil. Not only do they meddle in issues beyond their comprehension without fear of consequence, but they effect the lives of others in ways those others never desired. Stupid people have begun to control the world (and by stupid I mean the mindless fanatics who do not think but merely follow) and the green fad is a terrifying sign of it. It's SO widespread and SO aggressively anti-everything else that it's a horrifying example of what propaganda can do in the wrong hands. Good works by evil men are no longer good works. Intention defines an action, and the intentions of most of these greenies are not good but selfish and evil.

Note that as I said above, there's a big difference between those who really love the earth and those who simply hopped on the wagon. It is NOT the genuine environmentally concerned that I take issue with. It is the bandwagoners.

[fjwagner]

Very well said MOD. Global warming/climate change is such a big business that there is no way those profiting will listen to reason and change their minds. They shut off all counter arguments which I find extremely frustrating. At some point they will take credit for changing warming/cooling trends (data suggests we may be cooling) and their minions will all bow down. One just has to look at the geologic record to see evidence of rising and falling sea levels in the pre-historic past to realize that the earth has always been in a dynamic process.

Fred

[grogman]

hey wagner.........you seem to have sensibility about all this.........you live in houston i did also for 3 years.............texas has no state income tax and big oil subsidizes about everything down there..........it's capitalism that has a stranglehold on the feds not the other way. sure the feds get taxes from them but big oil controls the situation...............the earth will always be changing ........like you said.........al gore is dopey yes....most unemployed politicians are.....but certain countries are causing great harm to the world...........we did and are still but not so much......we need to find alternative everything to get through this economic burp, so we all agree on encouraging and enlightening ideas no duh.....it's all about practicality.....i wonder if big oil is involved in coal mining. out.

[fjwagner]

.i wonder if big oil is involved in coal mining. out.

Used to be, but no longer. I have worked for ExxonMobil for almost 30 years and will say that I am proud to be part of an industry that plays such a crucial role in our economic security. The people I work with are great, are concerned about the environment and recognize the need to conserve and are looking ahead towards new technology; including alternative energy. However, conventional hydrocarbons will be with us for the foreseeable future. Given that, we are spending great sums of money to extract more oil and gas from existing fields and explore for new resources in areas such as deeper and deeper water. We are also a leader in technology that is extending the life of lithium batteries such as those that can power electric cars. Private industry will lead the way forward, not the federal government. We are much more efficient than the feds and it concerns the heck out of me the way the current administration feels that government can solve our problems.

You mentioned that big oil subsidizes Texas. Not really true anymore. Independent producers have purchased many of the producing properties once owned by big oil as we have moved our investments and efforts to significantly larger capital intensive efforts such as deep water, frontier areas, etc. The US has been rather unfriendly to the oil and gas industry which is unfortunate as our profitability is rather middle of the road versus other industries such as finance, computing and others. Our absolute numbers are big, but our ratios are middling. Texas is also much more diversified with fairly high property tax to help offset the lack of income tax.

Cheers and an extended hand of friendship. Fred

[frankoV]

living in society = conforming to its rules.

Not really . . . which is why our prisons are full.

Or, if you want a different direction. Roe v Wade . . . or Halpern v. Canada.

In the first case, society deemed abortion wrong . . . the norm was fought, and society's rules changed.

In the second case, society deemed ****sexual marriage [and the practice] wrong . . . the norm was fought . . . and society's rules changed.

Changed because people did not like the rules and fought for them to be changed.

This whold green thing is a shift from one set of societal norms to another -- and of changing the rules.

[MinisterofDOOM]

oh and btw, living in society = conforming to its rules.

Many of the greatest men in history have been men who bucked common convention with the intention of improving things for everyone. Many evil men have been anticonformists as well. But anyone who simply conforms because they exist is a part of the problem. Nothing can ever change if no one makes change. Many of the great culturally revolutionary moments in history are due to people being fed up with society's rules. Society is stupid anyhow. Society is, by it's nature, governed by the foolish since the foolish are the majority. Society has no idea what is best for it. Society simply does what it thinks sounds best, which is usually whatever is explained in the most appealing way by the most effective wordsmith. Society has no powers of reason or reflection. Individuals do. And individuals need to use their power as individuals to keep society from making mistakes.

If everyone went around subserviently believing what you say, we'd still have black slaves and women solely in the kitchen. Society's rules sucks. I am NOT society and I will make my own decisions. Those of us in this world with genuine powerful minds are disgusted at the very idea of surrendering to the idiocy of the masses.

[grogman]

changes in events in cultural habits isn't the same as free enterprise give the people what they want. the most inexpensive way for energy companies to supply for all is gasoline right now. driving cars in our part of the world is a priviledge..........someday it will be a luxury. abortion and sexual expression are a sociotal thing not a business thing..............

[the djay]

It may not be a "Fad" but it does seem over-priced. I personally have made changes to my daily routine not so much to "Go Green" as to try and save cash. I changed all my home lights to CF lights to cut down my electrical bill (about $15) per month savings. Bought the V and took my old car off the road to continue the restoration. (The savings in gas per month pay for the car) We purchased a new home and have the more efficient furnace and the upgraded windows. (Not too sure how this really works but the Wife is happier for now) For my business I bought more energy efficient amps and speakers as they draw less power and I may upgrade my light show to led instead of regular but that will cost way more than what I have at the moment.

Personally I believe if the act of going "Green" is to be taken seriously, the action of doing so should be beneficial financially to people and so-called green products should cost less than non green products. Right now going green is overly priced and according to the media hype, is a "Feel Good" thing so we, the general public can be screwed over while we feel good.

A good example is that home power generation either by solar panels or wind generation (both roof top mountable) can be configured to power a home and the excess power not used can be added to the main grid via 2 way metering. You should be able to get credit for what you put into the grid and be charged for only what you use. However it seems there is too much bureaucratic tape and "Administrative Charges" as well as the initial set-up cost to make this beneficial to the average home owner. Cut the costs and the bureaucratic BS and the environment and people would equally benefit. Just my opinion.

As far as the Auto Industry is involved, if car makers would make vehicles of better quality and engines more efficient (Which they could if they wanted to right now) and make them last a lot longer, the cost of ownership and travel would drop. If more people could travel and see just what beauty the planet has it would encourage more of us to give a damn about it. But unfortunately this does not generate the huge profits these companies crave. Get rid of the greedy nature of companies and maybe we all could go green and actually improve our lives at the same time.

[fjwagner]

Get rid of the greedy nature of companies and maybe we all could go green and actually improve our lives at the same time.

I was doing well with everything you said until you got to your last sentence. Companies make products that the marketplace wants, then sells them at a price where people will want those products and still make a profit for their shareholders, their employees and to reinvest in making new products. You standard of living would diminish significantly if you decided to put controls on the so called greedy companies as any incentive to be in business starts to go away. So, if you feel that something is overpriced then do not buy it. If others do the same, the product goes away or becomes priced at a point where you will buy. Simple economics 101. Capitalism is what makes the USA stand out over other countries that are more socialist. Fred