Inventing Argument: Abortion

[krimsonviper]

Not sure whether I'm pro-life or pro-choice, but my thoughts are much in line with Staces paper.

If you're having unprotected sex, get pregnant, and view the child as an obstacle, then you shouldn't be having sex. At the same time for those who are having protected sex, and an accident happens(condom breaks or pill is no good, etc...) you knew of those possiblities, you shouldn't get an abortion either.

Sex = reproduction. If you can't get that through your thick skull, no penetration for you. When you get pregnant, you are no longer yourself. You're you, and another being. Don't take out your mistake on that new life. Who knows, that new child can grow up and get an awesome life saver for you, and everyone they will get to know. Get a positive outlook on it. It's not an easy job, but your parent(s) did it, you saying you're lower than your parents?

You family is there to help take care of you, or your children, if they aren't then they weren't your family to begin with. F**k them. There are many, MANY way's to help take care of yourself while with a child, male or female. Stop being lazy, get off your a**, and get a job. Two if you need it, or go to school. The world needs to stop being selfish and learn when to help out(not saying take my taxes and feed your face or anything else for that matter.)

No one said life was easy, but making better decisions does make it that way.

Rape, now THAT is completely up the victim...

Things I agree with that I don't have to repeat.

Abortion encourages irresponsible people to continue to be irresponsible.

I had to write a paper and speech on this for a class and I absolutely crushed my opposer...i'm pro choice and she was pro life and i guess mine was impactful (and got high scores on it, as well) because i'm a female who has been in an unfortunate situation and in sum, said: (and not all of you may agree with this approach--let me just say that there are circumstances in which abortion is appropriate and circumstances in which it is not):

"you're only pro life because it has never happened to you, your mother, your sister, your grandmother, your best friend, your daughter. i'm pro choice because i was raped when i was 12, and if i was impregnated at 12 (thank god i wasnt) with a complete stranger and sickos child and not being able to have a choice isnt the way i would like to live. had i had a child at 12, i wouldnt be here, i would probably be dead because the dimensions of my body would not be able to handle childbirth. had i had a child at 12 at the hands of a rapist, i wouldnt be in school. i wouldnt have a job. i wouldnt have money to take care of the child. i wouldnt have a father to help me. i would be rejected by all those around me and seen as "dirty", irresponsible, unintelligent, unfortunate, pitied. i would never be a doctor, a model, or whatever i wanted to grow up to be. my childhood would be snatched from me and i would never be able to get it back. you're a smart girl who wants to be a lawyer, right? what if one night you were walking to your car and you got raped and impregnated and abortions were no longer legal? would you be able to continue your life normally, pursue your career, your dream? Never."

im completely against people terminating pregnancies simply because it was an "accident" like you were drunk and didnt use protection, because if youre adult enough to have sex then you should be adult enough to deal with the consequences of unreasonable actions. you probably shouldnt terminate a life for selfish reasons. but if there are legitimate reasons such as you will probably die from complications from labor by having this child or you were raped by a sicko, then abortion may be appropriate.

p.s. i know people are not pro life just because it hasnt happened to them or someone close to them, but i know the girl was like this in this case because she was a complete snob who grew up sheltered and believed things like rape only happened to low class people, and she thought of herself as higher than that as if it could never happen to her.

phew sorry for the rant. i see you're trying to take a different approach but i just started ranting so I doubt this will help

I would be more inclined to accept your argument krash if they were to actually teach healthy sex habits in schools rather than just abstinence NATIONWIDE. I recognize that some districts have pretty good sex ed programs...but most are too conservative to teach proper protection use and statistics. I mean I know a lot of people that think there is a "safe" period in which to have unprotected sex...and that is total bulls***.

As it sits now... we absolutely need abortion rights to keep stupid people from breeding.

This, I don't though.

A back-alley abortion market would open up, causing the injury of countless women.

Outbreeding the idiots...

[Pieceofsand]

@ krash and krimsonviper

The baby sure can be grown up and have a major positive impact on the society, but it also have a 50/50 potential of just the opposite, it could be a criminal. Who am I to decide the chances, I don't know.

The argument wraps itself under religion,legal and philosophical issues.

Without getting too many different believes of religion involve, and possibly turn this into a religion argument; the argument of religion on the abortion topic is almost invalid for those of us who doesn't practice any religion.

The philosophical aspect of the topic is how you define life. Obviously the organism inside of the mother's stomach is in the process of becoming a full grown life of itself. Without it being born and registered as a citizen, technically it doesn't have an identity. Do we consider and give right to life that doesn't have an identity?

The legal aspect- Who's body? Who's decision? How is someone going to physically and lawfully tell someone else whether they should or should not do? You're an individual just like everybody else, what makes someone more important enough to tell somebody else they can/can't do? If the mother decides not to have a baby because of financial issue, and in her situation it's best for her to not have a child, are you telling her she doesn't have the right to choose to not be a mother?

sex is made for reproduction. at least it is designed that way. but through civilization it had developed into a pleasurable activity between the opposite sex. so don't have sex if you don't want babies? i don't know about that one lol.

thanks on the input guys. good points.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

Sex = reproduction. If you can't get that through your thick skull, no penetration for you. When you get pregnant, you are no longer yourself. You're you, and another being. Don't take out your mistake on that new life. Who knows, that new child can grow up and get an awesome life saver for you, and everyone they will get to know. Get a positive outlook on it. It's not an easy job, but your parent(s) did it, you saying you're lower than your parents?

No one said life was easy, but making better decisions does make it that way.

.

I disagree..I think sex is more than just for making babies. Sure that is what the evolutionary use is...but it has evolved to something much more in our society. It is a social lubricant that permeates our everyday lives.It is an expression of love, it is a hobby, it is fun, it is a work-out, it is advertisement, it is a perversion, it is way to control people, it is...

Pigeonholing everyone else into what you think sex should be is extremely short-sighted.

You made the choice...how can it be taken away from you once something grows in your uterus? When is the exact moment when it becomes "us" eh? Until it pops out it is still your property.

My biggest problem about this whole debate over abortion is the fact that people are exerting their ideals and beliefs onto everyone else. It is YOUR prerogative to do what you will with you life. If you want to worship cheese and have sex with toasters that's your thing... But to impose your ideals onto me and everyone else is crossing a line.

[krimsonviper]

The baby sure can be grown up and have a major positive impact on the society, but it also have a 50/50 potential of just the opposite, it could be a criminal. Who am I to decide the chances, I don't know.

So, so true and I agree 100% but so many would look at their pregnancy as something bad, which most of society does. I'm simply tired of this aspect.

The argument wraps itself under religion,legal and philosophical issues.

Yup, I'm a believer, but I'm not a lemming.

The philosophical aspect of the topic is how you define life. Obviously the organism inside of the mother's stomach is in the process of becoming a full grown life of itself. Without it being born and registered as a citizen, technically it doesn't have an identity. Do we consider and give right to life that doesn't have an identity?

Well, yeah. Do you have a retirement fund, and you're not yet retired? People are going to poke holes into that, but that's kinda how I'm looking at it. I mean, it's growing, and if left alone, it could possibly be born or miscarriage.

The legal aspect- Who's body? Who's decision? How is someone going to physically and lawfully tell someone else whether they should or should not do? You're an individual just like everybody else, what makes someone more important enough to tell somebody else they can/can't do? If the mother decides not to have a baby because of financial issue, and in her situation it's best for her to not have a child, are you telling her she doesn't have the right to choose to not be a mother?

Yeah, I don't like the gov't telling me what to do either. For pete's sake I live in CA, I don't NEED anymore laws governing me! It really does come down to the actual person, and I'm not going to make her decision to abort, but if asked me(which is what a vote is), I don't want it happening. All in all, this subject shouldn't even be the gov'ts hands. What a person does to themselves is ultimately their decision. Some will like it, some will not. Get over it.

sex is made for reproduction. at least it is designed that way. but through civilization it had developed into a pleasurable activity between the opposite sex. so don't have sex if you don't want babies? i don't know about that one lol.

Pretty much yeah. Is it fun? HELL TO THE MOTHER F**KING NO! Can't change mother nature. I'm just saying don't do something if you're not up to dealing with all of it's consequence.

In terms of pregnancy, try your best not to get pregnant if you don't want kids. Watch the cycles, use condoms, take pills, pull out, snip, these are all steps that can be taken in one, or in conjunction to prevent pregnancy. It's a hassle, but hey, don't want kids right?

[krimsonviper]

I disagree..I think sex is more than just for making babies. Sure that is what the evolutionary use is...but it has evolved to something much more in our society. It is a social lubricant that permeates our everyday lives.It is an expression of love, it is a hobby, it is fun, it is a work-out, it is advertisement, it is a perversion, it is way to control people, it is...

Pigeonholing everyone else into what you think sex should be is extremely short-sighted.

Yeah, it is extremely simplifying it, but you still can't argue, that the vagina and pen15 are reproductive organs, and meant for just that, and babies come from them.

In terms of humans, I agree with everything in that quote. I never said sex was used just for reproduction. I said having sex = reproduction.

[Pieceofsand]

no i wouldn't argument people looking at pregnancy as a negative aspect. But rather being aware. Being aware unnecessary problems and could of have been prevented but wasn't able to. Not everyone hates babies just because they had an abortion.

Your retirement fund is a weak attempt of comparison, didn't support your nor my claim.

And let me see. You're saying you live in CA - where I myself had live for about 9 years, and you don't think government should be involve in telling us what to do. But you're willing to act in a vote to abolish such right, is there even a difference? All in all, it's certainly not something the pro choice is trying to get over, they're just defending a right they're being threaten by the pro life activist, who are trying to abundant it. So wouldn't it make more sense that you should get over it? Who's complaining?

And sex is fun my friend. I don't care what you say.

Keep it coming, keep the language clean too. It's a sin to say teh bad words.

[PoorManQ45]

Well, religion has a lot to do with it. Christianity teaches to not commit murder.

Do you always listen to people that hear voices in their head...

[PoorManQ45]

Killing an unborn child means you also kill all the things that child could have grown up to accomplish and become. Many aborted babies could very well have grown up to be major contributors to society.

So you're saying when she swallows she is committing genocide!

[krimsonviper]

Your retirement fund is a weak attempt of comparison, didn't support your nor my claim.

Eh, I don't know how to word it any better. It's still a life/retirement fund and should be treated as such. It grows, and will live on it's own/outside of the bank. Simply because it's still inside of someone/bank, doesn't mean any difference.

And let me see. You're saying you live in CA - where I myself had live for about 9 years, and you don't think government should be involve in telling us what to do. But you're willing to act in a vote to abolish such right, is there even a difference? All in all, it's certainly not something the pro choice is trying to get over, they're just defending a right they're being threaten by the pro life activist, who are trying to abundant it. So wouldn't it make more sense that you should get over it? Who's complaining?

I'm not participating in any votes. What I'm saying is, if a person were to come up to me, and tell me their story of how their pregnancy happened, and it wasn't rape or the like, ask me whether they should abort or not? My answer is "No."

The "get over it," wasn't a shot at any body in particular, I'm just saying that this subject shouldn't be in the gov't's hands. Whether you, or I agree or disagree shouldn't be of any value to another persons decisions so long as it's not affecting anyone's life but the decisions maker's and the gov't shouldn't get involved.

And sex is fun my friend. I don't care what you say.

I never said it wasn't! It's damn good when I get it.

And I'm going to step out of this conversation for awhile. It's just gonna look like it's me against everyone else. I wan't more input from others! I like these conversations!

[Bmore-coupe]

or

[dusred]

Don't kill babies. They are people too.

My .02.

[PoorManQ45]

Don't kill babies. They are people too.

My .02.

If you kill the babies you're putting pedobear out of business!

[sentrastace]

The philosophical aspect of the topic is how you define life. Obviously the organism inside of the mother's stomach is in the process of becoming a full grown life of itself. Without it being born and registered as a citizen, technically it doesn't have an identity. Do we consider and give right to life that doesn't have an identity?

i had to do a lot of research on this for the same argument i was making above, and you should probably do the same because i dont remember the exact number but some pro choice people argue that the human conceived is not "alive" a "person" or has an identity until i think 6 weeks (definitely research that, im not sure) when the brain and heart develops, its still a little miniscule dot inside of you and technically doesn't "exist" or even knows it exists or something like that. not sure how much I buy it, but its a perspective you should look at. so some people argue that abortion is fine before 6 weeks, anything after is murder? i dunno man.

[alms24sebring]

ok interesting points. I agree with some and disagree with others.

Sex = feel good fun.I agree that it is commercialized for a reason. It's fun, messy mmmm, and everybody has a sex drive. I mean I jerk it twice a day atleast because damn it feels good, and putting it in warm, wet, gushy things is even better. It's like my drug and I will not walk away from it because its against a religion that im only doing it for feeling and not reproduction. Thats stupid.

But people do need to be responsible about it. You can't just say f*ck it.. then f*ck it with no protection. It only takes 1 time to mess up. I refuse to have (vaginal) sex without a condom or birth control. I always make sure everything is straight before I get straight. I do understand that its not 100% safe, but thats also a thought that crosses my time. Its always a risk.

Thats the other thing. Why the F*CK does it feel so good but with the biggest consequences. Its like smokin weed. Its the most bulls**t drug but stays in ur system for the longest time out of anything, 30+ days depending on body fat. I hate that.

Theres more but ill post more later if I think of it.

Its called being RESPONSIBLE!If you are responible, have fun and pound it out till it bleeds

[s14_girl]

Well, religion has a lot to do with it. Christianity teaches to not commit murder. Doing so would violate one of the 10 commandments, meaning that it is a sin. Although I'm a bit more liberal, you will find many super-conservative christians that are pro-life for that sole reason and none other. Not only does abortion violate religious laws, but it also violates laws laid by the country. Now, the government can kill convicted murderers with no problem, but those bastards deserve it. Preforming an abortion kills the most innocent form of life.

Thats another reason that I'm more on the pro-life side. Killing an unborn child means you also kill all the things that child could have grown up to accomplish and become. Many aborted babies could very well have grown up to be major contributors to society. My friend's mom was told to have an abortion when pregnant with her because they said she would have birth defects. But her mom didn't get the abortion (obviously) and well, shes a perfectly normal healthy person, and a great influence on my life as well as many others.

But like I said, there are exceptions for things. Stace gave a perfect example with the rape scenario. Even though the above two statements are not invalidated by a rape scenario, the wellbeing of the child that results can suffer depending on the the victim's financial and mental status, like stace also mentioned.

This is a pretty good summary of how I feel as well. When it's been discussed at church, being pro-life has been more or less defined as not believing in abortion unless in cases of rape or preserving life of the mother. I used to know a couple who were careless with birth control, and the girl had two abortions within a year. That sickened me. I believe a child has a legitimate right to life from the time it is created. Again, certain times are different, and that's a difficult choice.

[alms24sebring]

Thats another good point. Maybe there should be limits to how many times you are allowed to abort. Its a privaledge and should not be abused.

The main problem with this is its all or nothing.

[PoorManQ45]

[Pieceofsand]

My rough draft done.

Who's body? Who's right?

I've always been a person that enjoy animals. I appreciate animals, I appreciate life in general. I couldn't tell you all the animals I've had in the past: ducks, chicks, frogs, hermit crabs; I love them all equally. However, the biggest passion I've had in animals is home aquarium keeping. I've many tanks, different sizes and different shapes, and of course different types of fish. I had an African Cichilid, her name was Freddie. I gave her that name when she was only half inch long, obviously I didn't know it was a “she.” Over the two years I kept her she grew big, she became smart as well. Freddie can recognize me when I walk in the room, she can recognize a stranger that walks in the room as well. Freddie was a fish of character, unfortunately I had to give her away when I had to move. I still wonder til this day what happened to her. Just a few days ago I was just thinking to myself: If a fish is born in your aquarium and you call her Freddie, write out a birth certificate, tell her about her family history, and two years later she gets eaten by another fish – that is tragic. But it's only tragic because you projected a separate self where there was none. You got a hold of a fraction of a dynamic process, a molecular dance, and made a separate entity out of it. Abortion had always been one of the most argued topics out there. Whether you believe killing a baby is wrong, or you stand for it's up to the mother to decide, disagreement will be always among those believes. The argument usually narrow down to the category of religion, philosophy and economic view. I think it should be up to the mother to decide what she wants to do. I believe if she have the ability to give life, then I think it's only fair for her to have the ability to take a life. What if I was to tell you that a 15 years old girl was raped by a rapist one night, are you saying she have to carry a baby of a rapist for 9 months? What if her dream is to become a model some day, and the baby will stretch and ruined her body dynamic forever? What if the doctor tells her she might die from labor complication reasons because of her age? Not to mention being a pregnant teenager in high school is tough, it could effect her ability to do well in school, it might not, but who knows. But if it comes down to it, are you saying that if she doesn't have the right to choose not to have a baby? Is it really fair for her to follow something that is based on your believe? What makes you any more important than her that she must follow your believes? We are equaled individual and our opinions should be validated equally. If you believe something is wrong, you have the right to choose not to do it. But can you stop somebody else from doing something because you believe it's wrong? The philosophical aspect of the issue is how you define life. Your perspective on what is life will change your approach to the topic. The fetus inside the mother's stomach is in a 9 months process of becoming a life, a life of itself. It's survival fully depends on its mother, the fetus is a part of the mother and cannot survive without its mother. Although the fetus have developing body parts of its own, I wouldn't consider it have the life of its own. Without it being born and registered as a citizen, technically it doesn't have a legal identity or legal document of any kind. I know this sounds cruel, but do we consider and give right to life that have no identity or documentation? I know that we don't with illegal immigrants in the country. So what is life? Life is a characteristic that distinguishes object that have self sustaining biological processes from those who do not. If you consider the developing baby inside of a mother's stomach life – which I don't argue, but you should consider a shell of a living turtle life too, because it grows; and consider a grain of a seed a life because it too have the potential of becoming a full grown tree of life some day; and would you say that of a teenager sitting in front of a computer watching adult rated videos with a bottle of lotion and a sock while his parents aren't home, that he is killing potential babies? I'm not here to argue religion, nor do I practice any religion. So without bringing the different types of religion out there that are already in existence, instead of arguing on the legitimacy of a certain religion, I'll just use the most popular religion Christianity as example. From what I've understand, abortion was never brought up in the bible(correct me if I'm wrong). The reason why I believe it was never bought up it's because perhaps there wasn't any technology back in their time, so they can't possibility mention it. But the Christian believes that reason why abortion was not mentioned in the bible is because abortion was so unthinkable to an Israelite women that there was no need to even mention it in the criminal code. I respect all religion, I would not invade someone's right to practice what they believe, and I will not do anything to offend them. But I want to take a step back and ask the question: how do you know God is real? Because you believe in something it does it mean it's real? How can people believe in a God that can listen to everyone murmuring at the same time and answer them all, but not A beard man rides sleigh and goes to every house dropping off presents? There is no proof that God is real, no evidence, hence why we say “do you believe?” Some people may answer my question “I don't know if it's real, but I have faith, that's why I believe in faith and faith is a beautiful thing.” But why? Why is faith good? Why is believing something without evidence is beautiful? You can ask me “How do you know God is not real?” I never said God is not real, I've never doubt any religion in my past. I'm simply preaching how I fell, I feel like there is a possibility that god is real, but the image of Jesus on a piece of burn toast just won't convince me. I think it's only logical for me to gather more evidence before I consider believing. Christianity teaches not to commit murder, doing so would violate one of the 10 commandments , meaning it's a sin. Would you consider killing a cow a sin? Why not? It's an animal just like we are. We're far more intelligent but that doesn't mean we're superior because they're not like us. If abortion is a sin, then the government executing convicted murderers would be a sin too. I don't believe abortion kills most innocent form of life, because who is to argue that the child wouldn't someday be a convicted felon?

[PoorManQ45]

Are you black?

The grammer used is consistent with current english speaking. This is incorrect.

*edit* @ the teenager beating it in to a sock!
Modified by PoorManQ45 at 3:06 PM 2/9/2010

[krimsonviper]

Are you black?

The grammer used is consistent with current english speaking. This is incorrect.

[Pieceofsand]

no i'm not black. i'm just bad at writing