Intercooling: The Great Dilemma

[wewders]

The more I research intercooling, the more I think that conventional methods just aren't good enough. SMICs are small and hard to get good airflow to, and they have a fair amount of piping. TMICs suffer from heat soak. FMICs use a lot of piping (=more turbo lag) and block the radiator. VMICs are nice, but a V-mount setup traditionally requires you to angle your radiator - not worth it IMO.

So I found myself asking, "How do I choose the right intercooler for my application?" Well, lucky for me, someone came up with an interesting compromise. I saw a fabricated system on a how-to. It was designed by an amateur drifter/CA 240 enthusiast. The setup uses a barrel style liquid intercooler with a front-mounted heat exchanger to cool the intake charge with less than 5 ft of charge piping.

Links are to products I have found based on the descriptions provided by 240AM. The parts used include the following:- PWR barrel style liquid intercooler: http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm (bottom of page)

Part # Dimensions Overall Length *** HP CFM Retail 02406041 4" x 6" 11.75" 270 HP 390 CFM $505 02408041 4" x 8" 13.75" 290 HP 390 CFM $605 02410041 4" x 10" 15.75" 300 HP 390 CFM $705 02506062 6" x 6" 15" 500 HP 920 CFM $655 02508062 6" x 8" 17" 600 HP 920 CFM $755 02510062 6" x 10" 19" 650 HP 920 CFM $855 02610082 8" X 10" 22" 1250+ HP 1530 CFM $1,539

- Setrab heat exchanger: http://www.hrpworld.com/index....oduct

TOC Heat Exchanger - 9.75" OA Length SETTOC-150M22I $378.00 TOC Heat Exchanger - 11.75" OA Length SETTOC-200M22I $390.00 TOC Heat Exchanger - 15.75" OA Length SETTOC-300M22I $410.00

- Summit Racing 1 gallon fuel cell: http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

- An electric water pump from a liquid cooled Ford Lightning (local junkyard)

- 3/4" heater hose for water lines

- 2.25" custom made welded piping

The final setup works in this manner:

- The water reservior is filled with water and flows to the top of the heat exchanger - Water flows through the exchanger and is cooled by air. (just like a radiator) - Water exits the heat exchanger at the outlet and flows to the electric water pump - The electric water pump is placed at the lowest point in the system so as to always remain primed - The water pump pumps freshly cooled water into the intercooler’s inlet - Water in the intercooler absorbs heat and then exits the intercooler through its outlet - The water is then returned to the reservoir to begin its journey over

In order to facilitate a setup like this, you will obviously need to first replace your clutch fan with an electric one (if you haven't already).

I found this system fascinating and relatively practical, albeit expensive. If you buy all the primary components at retail, you're looking at about $1100. Add heater hose, piping, welding (unless you DIY) and the water pump, and you're looking at another $200-$300. It's still better than buying one of those horribly mismatched FMIC kits off eBay, and in the end I think the performance payoff and versatility of an air-and-water intercooler system is well worth the money.

Just wanted to share this with a knowledgeable community, and see if anyone knows of a better approach to effective intercooling for mid to high boost applications.

The original how-to by 240AM is located at Driftopia.com
Modified by wewders at 11:03 AM 5/11/2007

[mikesim]

my friend is running a similar kind of system in his 1G DSM. i don't think he paid anywhere near that for his setup though.

[wewders]

my friend is running a similar kind of system in his 1G DSM. i don't think he paid anywhere near that for his setup though.

I'm sure it's possible to do it for a lot less. You can buy used/refurbished parts, cheaper off-brand or junkyard parts, etc. The prices I threw around there were based on retail for these particular components.

[ragenasian]

I posted pics of a similar setup on a CA awhile ago

nice setup though that you posted

[wewders]

ahh! That motor is so pretty...I just wanna get out a rag and polish those charge pipes lol

Really nice setup though, very professional looking job. Did you DIY?

[240sxbobbis]

too much seeme deeme for me

[jt15833]

i think your giving fmic's less credit than they deserve. properly suited with the right core, right diamater piping and properly checked to ensure 0 leaks they work pretty well, especially for the dollar/effort : power ratio. Also I woulndt give your friend so much credit for this design, seen it bunches before and thats without even looking for it.

[Rookieca18det]

A front mount is a bit more practical and easier to come by, hence why you will see it 50x more than any type of liquid and air type cooler. Nothing wrong with that setup, but on a street car suited with the proper piping and intercooler (size) you wont suffer too much lag. Price is probably the biggest factor in most peoples decision though.

-richard

[wewders]

lol I wasn't trying to credit 240AM with inventing the air-and-water intercooler. I brought it here because I've never seen something like it before, and when I searched NicoClub I couldn't find anything, so I figured I could discuss a subject here that hasn't been discussed yet. =)

Anyway, even with proper piping diameter and core size, an FMIC blocks a lot of the air that should be going to your radiator. This setup might not be as cost and work effective, but it's definitely more efficient, and no FMIC is ever going to have 5ft of charge piping.

[wewders]

Price is probably the biggest factor in most peoples decision though.

Okay, I see that practical application and bang for the buck is most people's primary concern. I guess I was hoping the focus here would be on intercooling efficiency for engines running mid to high boost levels.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I wanted to run 22psi on a T3/T4 TC. That's a lot of pressure running through the intake charge. As we all know, pressure and heat have positive correlation, and the colder the air, the denser the charge. Colder intake = denser air by volume = more molecules to combust in the cylinder = more HP. In order to achieve high cooling efficiency for that kind of boost, I'm gonna need a pretty big FMIC.

At the same time, I have an engine that's running in the high end of it's RPM range and generating a lot of heat. This wouldn't be much of a problem if that big 'ole honkin' FMIC I needed to cool the charge for my high boost turbo wasn't blocking all the airflow to my radiator. Plus I gotta wait for this thing to spool up 22psi through 15ft of piping and the fairly oversized IC core before I can achieve balanced airflow and maximum turbo efficiency.

At this point, would I not have been much better off going with the smaller and more efficient liquid intercooler system? The piping's only a few feet long, the water's conducting heat better than air would, the radiator can breathe, and, if I feel like taking a walk over to the concession stand, I can buy some ice to put in my reservoire before the next race and run below ambient intake temps.

Feel free to poke holes in this theory. That's why I brought it here.

[r34 gtr]

just chemically intercool that bad boy and be done with it. dont mess around with any of this fmic/tmic/liquid to air crap, just cram tons of methanol into the intake charge and off you go.

[float_6969]

Plain water has a higher latent heat vaporization than methanol. The methanol is used as a fuel and octane booster. From a pure intercooling standpoint, pure water does the best job.

[r34 gtr]

fine then, put water in there! chemical intercooling offers the least possible pressure drop, and allows for the straightest intake path. i believe that was the problem to be addressed SIR. usually one does not run straight water, but an alcohol or alc/water setup. just cool the liquids down a whole ton before you dump them in there for some extra kick!!

[jt15833]

all the points you say are right, in every aspect other than price and simplicity the air-liquid IC placed right in front of the engine with fewest piping is definetly better. but how much? in the end it always comes down to how much someone wants to pay for power, and I think the ratio is the best at the fmic. anyone ever hear of air-liquid IC's leaking? id be nervous of getting liquid in the engine.

[rico05]

I would be concerned with the complexity and weight issues that kind of system has. If you really want to be different and ensure that every percentage of efficency is eeked out, then go for it.

You may find that after you have spent all that effort and $, you are little better off than going FMIC. I really think that for sanity's sake you should look into the afore mentioned alcohol/water injection systems.

[wewders]

I looked into water injection as well, but there are two things I didn't like about it. (1) The use of methanol or isopropanol in water injection to increase the octane rating of the fuel in the combustion chamber and burn hotter (as well act as an antifreeze for the water in the mixture). Call me old fashioned, but it just seems a little risky to add those compounds to the fuel/air mix. They cause more rapid corrosion in cast iron and steel, especially when all the injected water is not vaporized during combustion or subsequently evaporated from the oil. If you're late on a 3m/3000mi oil change, you might find yourself in a lot of trouble. (2) In order for all the water to be burned up in the cylinders, you need to inject it only when the engine is running hot and you're at high RPM. This means that you effectively only have a cold charge in the high range, which would decrease low-end turbo efficiency due to the lower volumetric density of the air intake (high-pressure hot air = less density/pressure than high-pressure cold air). This also means that water injection, by its very nature, can't cool an idling engine.

Methanol-water injection was essentially designed to allow for high-compression engines to run more than moderate boost levels without experiencing engine knock. While the benefits for turbo-tuned engines is potentially much greater, I think that the performance limits of a liquid-to-air system essentially give the 1.8L CA18DET the ability to perform to its maximum capability (basically, it can only push such a big turbo to so much PSI in the first place).

To its credit, methanol-water injection has reportedly caused carbon deposits (which can cause engine knock, as we all know) to break down in some engines, and ultimately it is the most effective high-range cooling method. At the end of the day, I just think that maintaining the system itself (refilling the coolant reservoire) is a bit of a chore, and using this cooling method essentially makes your entire engine higher maintenance, requiring more frequent oil changes, fluid checks, and TLC.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Perhaps it would be possible to fab a liquid-air intercooling system with a piggy-backed methanol-water injection for high-range. Certainly not practical (money, labor and maintenance), but probably the most efficient thing you could do to intercool a TCed engine. Maybe I'll be the first person to make one.
Modified by wewders at 10:55 AM 5/2/2007

[dattodude]

A front mount requires no maintenance. And it does 80% of the job.Anything more will require more effort, more maintenance, more cost, and give a real small difference on top of the FMIC.

At the end of the day, having a reliable solution is more important.

On a deserted country road, a broken down Ferrari and a broken down Lada have the same functional value. Except you are more likely to get help from others if you are driving the Lada, thanks to others taking pity on you.

[jt15833]

datto that was a great saying. confucious style.

[ca20det]

on a high boost race car it could be significant to use such a system but on the streets or occasionnal drift/race, I think that a high pressure sprinkler system on the intercooler would me more cost effective and still make a significant difference while keeping the "money" factor relatively low... pretty interesting setup thought (the one with the TB even more) but I would be really surprised if with mandrel bent one part piping with a proper intercooler (more galleries than longer ones) .... I doubt that there is more than 20% efficiency difference between the two systems therefore on a street application, FMIC is IMO the way to go....

[wewders]

Reliable system, maintenance, cost effectivenes; I see your point. I guess I'm a little more eccentric than most when it comes to these things.

Well, anyway, I got bored and drew a concept of the liquid-air intercooled, water-injected system. This assumes that the water injection system is using an electronic controller to respond to boost pressure or throttle position and open the solenoid valves accordingly. I probably should have put the injection line closer to the intercooler, but oh well.

Edit: fixed the waterflow diagram to put the water injection where it belongs. Too lazy to do it twice.
Modified by wewders at 3:56 PM 5/3/2007

[float_6969]

Water by itself actually cleans the carbon from the combustion chambers and helps to reduce knock/detonation/pre-ignition because of it's cleaning abilities. Any carbon build up would be from additives in the water.

The alcohol is there to keep the water from freezing.

Keeping it full is easy as long as you use your stock wiper fluid reservoir. It has an internal switch that will illuminate a little light on your dash when you're getting low. Coincidentally, the cheap, blue, wiper fluid works great for liquid intercooling.

The nozzle should as far away from the motor as possible, but it must be after the intercooler.

Up to 7psi, you can actually run strictly liquid intercooling with out any sort of other intercooling.

Water/Alcohol injection is an intercooler. Don't mistake it for an octane booster. It allows you to make more power, because you can run more timing, because the charge temp is lower and less prone to auto-ignition.

From experience, shorter intercooler piping does greatly increase throttle response. A good system with maximum efficiency would use liquid-to-air/air-to-air, water injection, and some sort of water sprayer on the heat exchanger/intecooler. I would venture to guess that combination would yield you near 100% efficiency. The potential for over 100% efficiency offered by the liquid-to-air system (at least short term) does increase it's potential IMHO.

[rico05]

I just want to know one thing: Are you thinking through all this for a 250rwhp daily toy or a 500hp+ track attack monster?

If it's the former, there are really better things to over engineer.

[240sxbobbis]

i mean its an neat invention but at the same time im thinking about weight and stuff like that . i like it but too much antics for me jed , i like the space in my engine bay and my fmic . if your all about air cooling efficency and hp rating and all out high horse power module horse then ill say go for it . what ever is your preference shoot for the stars is what ill say .

[wewders]

float you are very wise. Thanks for saying everything I said, only in a smarter, more cohesive and decisive manner.

I just want to know one thing: Are you thinking through all this for a 250rwhp daily toy or a 500hp+ track attack monster?

If it's the former, there are really better things to over engineer.

It's definitely the latter, rico. Emphasis on the +. Btw, I checked out your website. That oil cooler setup: very nice.

Think there's room in front of the rad for it + a heat exchanger? Say, if I used the 11x11"

[Masterdebater]

front mount will block a fmic no doubt.but just put an electric fan on there and itll just pull the air through it hahaeither way will need fans

[mikesim]

i've seen JDM cars and a local S14 w/SR here with the rad moved back, and the FMIC directly in front of the rad, under the rad cradle. piping was very short, since it didn't have to travel under and around, and everything was ducted up very nicely.

Float's setup is similar, with the FMIC pipes running just behind the headlights.

I don't know if you guys get the same washer fluid, but there's a Walmart brand that's called "Turbo Power". My friend always buys it for his water meth setup.

[float_6969]

I was going to suprise people with this but I'll go ahead and talk about this idea I had.

What about using a thick, aluminum, 3 core radiator from a Del Sol? You know, the one that's only half as wide as the car? Then where they would have put the A/C condenser in the Del Sol, put a custom double pass intercooler.

That setup would get you the full air flow like a FMIC would, but doesn't block the radiator either.

[Sil40sK]

I was going to suprise people with this but I'll go ahead and talk about this idea I had.

What about using a thick, aluminum, 3 core radiator from a Del Sol? You know, the one that's only half as wide as the car? Then where they would have put the A/C condenser in the Del Sol, put a custom double pass intercooler.

That setup would get you the full air flow like a FMIC would, but doesn't block the radiator either.

I had that same idea! One of my buddy's with a turbo Civic is running that setup; he just took out his AC condensor and we made a custom intercooler and just mounted it right in there, it works fine, hasn't overheated yet, and that was also running 15 minute sessions at our local roadcourse. If you're really concerned with the whole boost lag, short piping, not wanting to block the radiator thing, just do a V-mount, it's not as hard as it seems. Just a few custom brackets and hose bends.

[Bwana]

Call me old fashioned, but it just seems a little risky to add those compounds to the fuel/air mix.

Just FYI, water injection has been around since at least the 30's. My Grandpa has told me how they used to use it on their old Case tractor. Whenever they were pulling hard and it started to knock, they'd just turn a little valve and let some water into the intake system. Pretty primitive, but he says it worked great. They used it in cars as well.

[wewders]

float that is pretty brilliant. I think I will still go all-out liquid intercooling just for the coolness of it, but if I ever do want an FMIC I might try your idea.

Just FYI, water injection has been around since at least the 30's. My Grandpa has told me how they used to use it on their old Case tractor. Whenever they were pulling hard and it started to knock, they'd just turn a little valve and let some water into the intake system. Pretty primitive, but he says it worked great. They used it in cars as well.

I knew water cooling has been around for a while, but I had no idea it was that old. That's pretty neato. Anyway, I'm warming up to the idea of a hybrid system like the one I drew. I think it could be very beneficial to add water injection to an already intercooled vehicle.