If CARB has their way, we'll be walking in California.

[rn79870]

Many of you may not know the California Air Resource Board. They are the watchdog for all items car/emission related in California. They are not enthusiast friendly. The problem is that they often become the example followed by many other states, so what starts in California, may well become part of your state's position on the issues in the future.CARB has proposed stricter CAFE standards for 2020. The proposed 35 MPG isn't enough, they want 44MPG. Can you imagine what Ifiniti is going to do to meet these standards? Averages of 44 MPG, when you are selling SUV's and relatively inefficient (fuel economy wise) G35s, is going to make for a tough row to hoe. I'm afraid the forecast G79 may become a G18 by then.

http://www.autospies.com/news/...26909/

[WDRacing]

If educated people that weren't corrupt evaluated everything that makes CARB exist we could come up with a perfectly reasonable solution to CA's emissions problem. Not only that but we could solve many many problems that plague the US as a whole that deal with everything from sounds issues to tint legalities.

The problem is simple, CA gets a boat load of money from CARB. Like the oil crisis, there will never be a solution so long as money mongering poopyhead dictate policy to the public.

What we used to call democracy has dissolved into a sham.

[AZhitman]

CA sucks.

/thread

[W661335PF]

Americans angrily grit their teeth as they pump $>3-per-gallon gas. They think $2.50- is about right. In Britain, $3 sounds fanciful and nearly hypothetical, people there pay about $>$6 per gallon and think $5 would be fair and reasonable, and long for the day of the <$5 per gallon fare. In Venezuela, where prices are <.20 per gallon, the picture is different. When traveling in France, Italy, Germany and South Korea, I've found prices at about $5-6 per gallon.

Overall, the US can spin it's wheels asking for 44mpg or simply do as other countries have done.... charge a price that would compel Americans to slow down, buy gas saving cars and stop being excessively wasteful. Forcing manufactureres to design gas saving cars is more swollowable to Americans than raising prices and thereby raising the ire of the masses, which will not get you relected.

Responsible citezenry will reduce oil consumption much faster and more effectively than legislting every aspect of their lives. Interstingly, when i lived in MX, the more you consumed, the higher the price of certain products got (e.g., natural gas); whereas, in the US, the more you consume, ther greater your discount.

[W661335PF]

[QUOTE What we used to call democracy has dissolved into a sham. [/QUOTE]

Try living in a dictatorship as we did for 13 years, then talk to me about democracy as a sham! I'm not so sure you Americans appreciate who you have... freedoms and liberties most of us have never enjoyed or known, but have only heard of or seen on the news, TV and internet. No disrespect intended here, I'm only trying to highlight that most peoples of the world would give anything to live in the US.. even tho "it's a sham!"

[G_whizz]

1 litre of gas here is $1.18 right now

equates to about $4.46/gallon. That's frick'n high enough for me..

[gwoods]

What we used to call democracy has dissolved into a sham.

Don't worry man Obama's going to fix everything

[W661335PF]

Don't worry man Obama's going to fix everything

Nope, I think what he said is that "together" many of the countries ills can be managed-- "through "grass-roots" and not from the top down. The operative term in his presentation has always been concensus, team-building, working with anyone interested in advancing the nation's issues. Hhmmmm, this doesn't sound like he's the great gift giver with the magic wand!

[rn79870]

Don't worry man Obama's going to fix everything

No need to duck, the polls today showed his popularity soaring. Something like 15 points ahead of whatsherface.

[rn79870]

1 litre of gas here is $1.18 right now

equates to about $4.46/gallon. That's frick'n high enough for me..

That's terrible. I don't know how good the mileage is in a minivan, but this is not looking good.

[G_whizz]

That's terrible. I don't know how good the mileage is in a minivan, but this is not looking good.

LOL... you're a creative guy...

you should look at writing some articles or something for NICO

Oh to the other posters... guys ... tread carefully on threads about politics... they quickly get locked before they get out of hand... and trust me they ALWAYS get out of hand

[zozoka1212]

1 litre of gas here is $1.18 right now

equates to about $4.46/gallon. That's frick'n high enough for me..

Does it make you slow down. It doesn't work for me.

All it takes to stay 1 hour longer in the shop for me and I can pump my car full.

zozo

[WDRacing]

Try living in a dictatorship as we did for 13 years, then talk to me about democracy as a sham! I'm not so sure you Americans appreciate who you have... freedoms and liberties most of us have never enjoyed or known, but have only heard of or seen on the news, TV and internet. No disrespect intended here, I'm only trying to highlight that most peoples of the world would give anything to live in the US.. even tho "it's a sham!"

I was Combat Rescue for 12 years, I have earned the right to express my opinion. I never said that a dictatorship was a good thing, what I said was our, that means MINE, democracy has changed and is growing worse by the year. I also don't care who wants to live in America. Come on over, we don't have closed borders. Apply for a visa to go to school or work...not really that hard. Can't get a visa, then stay out...I have kids of my own to worry about. I don't need my tax dollars paying for others to experience the American Dream. I'm not overly concerned if my point of view isn't enjoyed by people that aren't American citizens But be that as it may, I've rescued my share of non US citizens and have lost good friends in the process. So don't get all weepy on me cause I have opinions that are abrasive.

I don't care what Europe pays for gas...Does Europe have CARB? No, so lets not talk about any other country because it does NOT pertain to the subject. I care about America and the way things are headed. All of the points I said are true. Big money makes the rules and the rules they make are going to give more money to the people that already have it.

CARB is a sham...friggin period dot. It was designed as a knee jerk reaction to a city that you couldn't even see when you flew over it. Note...you still can't see it...lol.

If you guys wanna discuss gas mileage and green vehicles, make a new thread. I'm all for talking about why we don't get better gas mileage since the technology for it has been around for years. People act like direct injection is some new thing...lol.

But lets keep this one on topic, CARB sucks and the state of CA would be better off rethinking the entire process.

WD

[rn79870]

Actually, WDRacing I have to accept that CARB has been good for California. I remember several days in my youth when the smog was so bad we weren't required to dress out or exercise during gym class. I remember the eyes watering and burning, and my chest aching each time I took a deep breath. There were public service announcements to staying indoors, and not exerting yourself outside, until the air cleared. Then there was that brownish dirty haze covering the landscape. CARB, and the EPA, have turned all that around in California. I can't remember the last day my eyes watered, or my chest hurt taking a deep breath. It is better today for everyone.

44 MPG, I doubt that will come to pass. You're not going to get the soccer mom out of her 11 mpg SUV.

Does CARB and/or California suck? My vote is no. I like clean air, clean water and a pollution free environment and I don't care who promotes it. And yes, you can see California when you fly over it now. I know, I've spend 460 hours doing just that in a C-172.

[WDRacing]

You misunderstand me. I'm all for cleaning up area's that are very populated and there's no doubt that without CARB CA would be uninhabitable.

My point is that it could be run better. There is no reason not to allow modifications to be done to a car. If the car passes strict emissions testing then it's good to go. You can't tell me that CA needs something that New York or Mass doesn't. I lived just outside Boston for 18 years. We don't have a MARB...lol. But we do have strict emissions testing and inspections done to all of our vehicles.

CARB gets paid a metric ton of money by companies just to recieve a CARB sticker. Tell me what a cone filter or CAI does to emissions? How about a Cat Back exhaust system. The answer is nothing since it's post carb. But the CARB gets so much money coming in that it's a majot source of revenue for the state.

I guess that's my issue. I'm a car enthusiast and as such I love working on and modifying my cars as I see fit. I would be more then happy to make sure my car passes any smog restriction you have for it. Just don't give me a friggin ticket for not having a CARB sticker on my intake or turbo kit.

When I drove into LA a couple years back, 04 maybe, there was a distinct haze of smog over the city. So it's definitly still visible. I to have flown all around the SD area, but in a helo. It's definitly ugly in some places.

But yes, it's better then it was. I can't imagine not being able to go outside as a kid because of the crap in the air.

WD

[W661335PF]

I was Combat Rescue for 12 years, I have earned the right to express my opinion. I never said that a dictatorship was a good thing, what I said was our, that means MINE, democracy has changed and is growing worse by the year. I also don't care who wants to live in America. Come on over, we don't have closed borders. Apply for a visa to go to school or work...not really that hard. Can't get a visa, then stay out...I have kids of my own to worry about. I don't need my tax dollars paying for others to experience the American Dream. I'm not overly concerned if my point of view isn't enjoyed by people that aren't American citizens But be that as it may, I've rescued my share of non US citizens and have lost good friends in the process. So don't get all weepy on me cause I have opinions that are abrasive.

I don't care what Europe pays for gas...Does Europe have CARB? No, so lets not talk about any other country because it does NOT pertain to the subject. I care about America and the way things are headed. All of the points I said are true. Big money makes the rules and the rules they make are going to give more money to the people that already have it.

CARB is a sham...friggin period dot. It was designed as a knee jerk reaction to a city that you couldn't even see when you flew over it. Note...you still can't see it...lol.

If you guys wanna discuss gas mileage and green vehicles, make a new thread. I'm all for talking about why we don't get better gas mileage since the technology for it has been around for years. People act like direct injection is some new thing...lol.

But lets keep this one on topic, CARB sucks and the state of CA would be better off rethinking the entire process.

WD

I lived in the US longer than you've been alive (and was born in the US) so I think I may have some perspective on this issue. I think things seem worse when you're in the midst of it. A longer term historical view of the country would suggest that things have improved. I used to live in East LA and can remember not being able to se the mountains even when we moved to Pasadena and Altadena.... now, we can, thanks to efforts to reduce green house gases.

I meant no disrespect here and I think it's important that we have a larger view of the world than simply what's in our back yard. What other economies and countries have done have often set the pace for the US. the US often uses models seen in other countries (just look at the healthcare debate raging in the primaries) to create its own policies, so thinking about where others are is critical to the US's survival.

Again, no disrespect intended.

[WDRacing]

I'm 33, that's long enough to establish an opinion. My views are to political to discuss on Nico. Suffice it to say, I'm not happy with the way things are going in general. Again, I don't think it feasible to use other countries as an example. Different laws, different people...regardless, to political to discuss, especially between people that don't know each other and over the Internet.

In the post above yours, I said we need some type of emissions control. Which is what controls all the noxious gas emitted from your car. You can still call it CARB, but it needs to examined by people in the automotive industry. Not people looking for a source of financial gain.

Emissions testing can and will work. It works in NY City and Boston.

WD

[Sentientbydesign]

Brian, if you don't mind, let me clarify what you're saying, because at first glance, your statement sounded like CARB and CA were the anti-christ.

The problem with CARB isn't their initiatives to clean up the air for us (Californians) and the US. That's the great part and I'm all for it.

The issue is that they have stupid restrictions like modifying your intake, exhaust, replacing your cat...etc. These modifications can in some cases clean up your emissions by comparison to the factory parts, but CARB is greedy.

Is that basically what you're saying?

Oh and AZhitman, I'm going to flush hard next time I fly over Arizona!

[WDRacing]

That's exactly what I'm saying. The end goal should be clean air for all, I'd be stupid to think that was a bad idea. However, like you said and or I said, a cone filter isn't going to effect your emissions output. But the police can and will give you a ticket for having one. That's my issue...

I take offense to people telling me what to do when they have no bases for doing so.

WD

[rn79870]

WDRacing, perhaps if everyone was as attentive to detail and spent the time investigating the technological issues that you have, then the rules against modifying your car could/should be relaxed. That's a big "if."

The "average" enthusiast, is nothing more than a parts swapper, not a mechanic, certainly not an engineer. You can see proof of that in another forum just a few clicks from here.

I agree, if you can create a safe, clean car, that meets all safety and environmental standards, you should be allowed to do so. Test it yearly if necessary, but allow it non the less.

[Sentientbydesign]

Maybe instead of making it so hard to get a CARB sticker, they should make it easier.

Now hear me out before you reply to this...

Like Brian said, a cone filter is a cone filter. CARB CAN make the approval process faster and cheaper.

Then all you'd have to do is buy a CARB approved mod and you'd be fine. If you wanted that thing from China that's made from low heat ABS, then we all laugh when you get your ticket.

[rn79870]

The issue is that they have stupid restrictions like modifying your intake, exhaust, replacing your cat...etc. These modifications can in some cases clean up your emissions by comparison to the factory parts, but CARB is greedy.

Oh and AZhitman, I'm going to flush hard next time I fly over Arizona!

The problem is that the "long term" affect is not known. The federal emission warranty is typically about 50k miles, and in that time, all the systems have to be certified to work correctly, work together and/or be changed at the manufacturers expense.

As long as a part is not within the items covered by the emission warranty, then I believe it is permissible to change it. That would be before the MAS and after the CAT. I didn't know that changing to a different type of air filter (cone) was in violation of that. (or so someone mentioned above)I'm sure Prof_Kwik will be along to correct that statement if it is misleading.

Sentientbydesign, You flush the john, I'm planning on using arizonaferrell's cat as a shop rag first chance I get. Tag team okay?

[WDRacing]

The process is simple and can be done by all levels of enthusiast. Every year the car has to get emissions tested. The levels of various pollutants will be very strict. Mod the car, fail emissions = no sticker, $400 fine, the state gets it's money, the retards get the fines and the rest of us can do anything we want without being punished because of the retards that have no idea how to go about changing their air filter let alone the fuel injectors and programming the ecu.

In almost all aspects of my life I've found that keeping things as simple as possible makes them operate as smoothly as possible. Over complicating the process is uncalled for and unwarranted.

I'll say it again, if no other state has CARB and they all have very breathable air, then how the hell is CARB and CA doing it right? Simple answer, they aren't. So adopt a proven program and role with it.

But that won't happen because of the previous financial gains to the state of CA for having this corrupt thing called CARB.

WD

[rn79870]

Well, CARB isn't done.

With respect to GHG reduction (greenhouse gasses) California has proposed higher requirements than Washington has. Other statres are free to opt into the California standard instead of the lesser Federal standard.

Under the Federal Clean Air Act, California has the right to set its own tougher-than-federal vehicle emission standards, as long as it obtains a waiver from USEPA.

California set higher standards, and continues to set higher standards.

Sixteen states, comprising about 45 percent of all U.S. auto sales have adopted, or are in the process of adopting, California's standards.States that have adopted, or are in the process of adopting, California's strict automobile emissions standards are: Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont and Washington.

http://gov.ca.gov/index.php?/press-release/8353/

I don't see the GHG reduction affecting our cars, but you can bet future cars will reflect some serious changes to meet these standards.

[WDRacing]

If I come off as arrogant and poopyhead, I apologize. I'm new to the G35 forum and you guys aren't used to the way I post. My wording isn't always reflective of what I mean to say. One of the issues I have with typing out a conversation.

None the less...

If CA and every state in the Union decide to up the emissions requirements for all cars then I'm all for it. It is still possible to have a 400whp car under boosted conditions and meet very strict emissions standards. It's simply a matter of tuning and combustion.

When the Fed Gov gets off its hind quarters and realizes that gasoline powered cars are destroying the planet they might realize that things as simple as CNG and Propane which are all readily available are worth looking into.

I was reading an article just a few months ago about a jeep with a 4 banger and a turbo that was converted to propane. IIRC the output was something along the lines of 280whp. Which isn't bad considering you could place your mouth on the tail pipe and breath...lol.

WD

[AZhitman]

Brian does wrap his mouth around quite a few tailpipes...

The 800-lb gorilla in the room is this: CARB is a joke. Leave private vehicles alone. Let's discuss the fact that ONE NY-to-LA flight spews as much harmful pollutants as the ENTIRE LIFESPAN (over 100K miles) of a large SUV. ONE FLIGHT.

Let's be realistic - CARB picks on the little guy, to the benefit of Big Oil.

CA is a political backwater, despite its residents' perceptions that they're "oh-so-progressive".

Don't get me started on the miniscule impact of implementing emissions controls for private vehicles. It's simply the path of least resistance, a group that's not organized and cohesive, and thereby easily manipulated and attacked.

Most of LA's haze comes from someplace else, BTW. Read up on it.

While you're reading up, let's look to China, which is demolishing our atmosphere at a rate TEN TIMES that of the US. They have no EPA, no emissions, no corporate controls on pollution...

Quit mouthbreathing, quit being fooled, and wake the hell up. There's more to the topic than meets the eye.

[audtatious]

These laws are all aimed at the common citizen. Greg mentions jets, but what about truckers? They are all over the place and belching blackness everywhere, yet most don't even use pollution control devices and cleaner fuel to make them 90% cleaner than today. These "big trucks" (classified as such if they are over 8500lbs) emit as much pollution as several dozen current automobiles and that number can be as high as up to 150 cars. They are one of the biggest sources of pollution (especially in urban areas), diesel soot is toxic and linked to cancer (an estimated 125,000 Americans will get cancer from diesel fumes (don't worry as that will be blamed on 2nd hand smoke) and 50,000 additional will die prematurely each year because of it) and asthma. In New York alone, diesel exhaust is the biggest source of particulate soot and in some cities will contribute 50% of all particulate soot and 30% of all smog-forming NOx.

Yet, they concentrate on cars and car MPG to solve pollution issues.....

[AZhitman]

^

[rn79870]

The 800-lb gorilla in the room is this: CARB is a joke. Leave private vehicles alone. Let's discuss the fact that ONE NY-to-LA flight spews as much harmful pollutants as the ENTIRE LIFESPAN (over 100K miles) of a large SUV. ONE FLIGHT

CARB has no jurisdiction over commercial aircraft flights. That is regulated by the FAA and the EPA. Do they recognize the problem. Yes. Are they acting/working on it. http://www.epa.gov/oms/aviation.htm

Let's be realistic - CARB picks on the little guy, to the benefit of Big Oil. .

I disagree. CARB’s reach exceeds that of the little guy. It has targeted everything from industry to manufacturing all the way down to lawn mowers and air fresheners. What CARB does today,will reflect what other states do tomorrow. As I posted previously, 16 other states are riding CARBs coattails, including Arizona.

CA is a political backwater, despite its residents' perceptions that they're "oh-so-progressive".

I’ve never seen evidence of that. Perhaps you could document it for me. Otherwise, I might remind you that Californians were progressive enough to fire a governor who didn’t seem capable of tying his shoes. Last time I read, California was something like the 14th (?) largest economy in the world. Dumb is different than backwater.

Don't get me started on the miniscule impact of implementing emissions controls for private vehicles. It's simply the path of least resistance, a group that's not organized and cohesive, and thereby easily manipulated and attacked.

Miniscule impact? I live in California and I remember being choked by smog. I’ve already explained that, and I don’t need to bore you with it again, except to say that I can’t remember the last day my eyes watered. Something is working.

Most of LA's haze comes from someplace else, BTW. Read up on it.

Haze is traditionally an atmospheric phenomenon where dust, smoke and other dry particles obscure the clarity of the sky.Smog is harmful to human health. Ground-level ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide are harmful for many citizens, young children, and people with certain medical conditions If we could keep the dust out of the air, and stop all forest fires, we would have far less haze. Motor vehicles, on the otherhand, have played a part in the smog problem. CARB hasn’t targeted just the motor vehicles in the resolution of this problem. (supra)

While you're reading up, let's look to China, which is demolishing our atmosphere at a rate TEN TIMES that of the US. They have no EPA, no emissions, no corporate controls on pollution...

Change in China is up to China. Educating them, setting an example for them, and turning world opinion against them is the way to resolve the China problem. Maybe there will be a China Air Recourses Board one day, you never know. (you read it here, first, on NICO) Regardless, your argument simply begs the question, If Joe jumped off the tall cliff, should I?

Quit mouthbreathing, quit being fooled, and wake the hell up. There's more to the topic than meets the eye.

True, there is more to the topic. That doesn’t change the fact that pursuing an end to a problem must be a perfect pursuit. An implemented plan of action can always be changed it if fails to meet it’s objection. Whereas by failing to act, you become another part of the problem. I’m not allowed to throw beer bottles in the Grand Canyon –I’m not upset about that.I accept it as one of those rules that place the interest of society as a whole above the interest of me as an individual. You and I both have kids, and I assume one day we’ll have grandkids and great grandkids. You can’t tell me that we want to leave anything but the best, cleanest and safest environment for them.

I respect your opinion in disagreeing with this matter. I would suggest that you become proactive in your state because it’s this is all (CARB) coming your way. If you, or Arizona, can create a better system, I’ll be the first to promote it. Otherwise, let’s focus on results. Not opinions.

By the way. Thanks for providing this forum and the avenue it provides to express our opinions.

[Minmey15]

These laws are all aimed at the common citizen. Greg mentions jets, but what about truckers? They are all over the place and belching blackness everywhere, yet most don't even use pollution control devices and cleaner fuel to make them 90% cleaner than today. These "big trucks" (classified as such if they are over 8500lbs) emit as much pollution as several dozen current automobiles and that number can be as high as up to 150 cars. They are one of the biggest sources of pollution (especially in urban areas), diesel soot is toxic and linked to cancer (an estimated 125,000 Americans will get cancer from diesel fumes (don't worry as that will be blamed on 2nd hand smoke) and 50,000 additional will die prematurely each year because of it) and asthma. In New York alone, diesel exhaust is the biggest source of particulate soot and in some cities will contribute 50% of all particulate soot and 30% of all smog-forming NOx.

Yet, they concentrate on cars and car MPG to solve pollution issues.....

Big Exhaust

T

These laws are all aimed at the common citizen. Greg mentions jets, but what about truckers? They are all over the place and belching blackness everywhere, yet most don't even use pollution control devices and cleaner fuel to make them 90% cleaner than today. These "big trucks" (classified as such if they are over 8500lbs) emit as much pollution as several dozen current automobiles and that number can be as high as up to 150 cars. They are one of the biggest sources of pollution (especially in urban areas), diesel soot is toxic and linked to cancer (an estimated 125,000 Americans will get cancer from diesel fumes (don't worry as that will be blamed on 2nd hand smoke) and 50,000 additional will die prematurely each year because of it) and asthma. In New York alone, diesel exhaust is the biggest source of particulate soot and in some cities will contribute 50% of all particulate soot and 30% of all smog-forming NOx.

Yet, they concentrate on cars and car MPG to solve pollution issues.....

Whether your exhaust is CARB approved or not, cops owuld still look at you. When I had Evo 9, cops would follow me when I am going speed limit. And my Evo 9 was compeletely stock. They don't follow my V36 Sedan though.

If CARB's original intention was for cleaner air, then it certainly changed to something else now days..