If CARB has their way, we'll be walking in California.

[rn79870]

As usual, you missed the point I was making IN FULL. You sound like a smart dude, yet here you are arguing against the very thing you think you believe in. It troubles me greatly to see people like you that have a passion for improving something, fighting and arguing against themselves when other very clear options are available.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

Who sets the emissions standard? OK CARB does, by making ONE decision. Here's the number...done. They can make a new number every year as the course gets evaluated.

No, the numbers are set due to standards and time lines, and the manufacturers ability to conform to them. They most certainly are not arbitrary as I think you are implying.

Then the state uses inspection stations that are already in place toimplement the testing and issuing of said pass/fail stickers. If the car passes the emissions test, has a full exhaust system to include a cat the driver is then free to go on his marry way.

Part of the problem is insuring that what works today, works tomorrow. I'm sure you've seen some examples of working systems that you knew wouldn't be working by tomorrow, let alone in 5 miles.

I've made a clear and concise argument that can not be debated.

We disagree.

If you're a conservative, then why are you all for wasting tax dollars on things that can so obviously be improved. That my friend is what I call a Liberal.

Sorry WDRacing, but Liberalism refers to a broad array of related ideas and theories of government that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal. I think you might be more liberal than you think.

[rn79870]

One other thing...CNG and or Propane can be made into a win win right now. Within a year the entire infrastructure could be set in place. We'd then just have to have our vehicles modified if possible for the current existing platforms and have the manufacturers build the new cars to propane/cng specs.

I'm not an engineer but I could do it myself right now on my K5 Blazer and or my 240SX.

CARB could totally get behind something like that and seriously revolutionize the way we look at transportation today. I'd even donate 10% of my income to see something like that come into fruition. So would a lot of Americans...

Just food for thought.

Wow, we are in total agreement on something anyway.

[Sentientbydesign]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're being the typical Liberal that refuses to be swayed from anything other then what they think.

There are 8 Bazillion reasons why CARB can be replaced with a better and friendlier means of removing the greenhouse impact of the common automobile. Yet everytime we state something, you post some link that supposedly makes your point. But you haven't actually made any points other then, yes cars make pollution and it needs to be dealt with by CARB.

Why CARB.

Did you not even read Gregs last post? You justify a fvcking Corolla purchase as reason to scrap a 240SX because the exhaust is bad.

Step away from the crack pipe for a second.

Don't post anymore links, just read this next statement I'm going to make.

Emissions testing for all cars will completely and utterly remove the need for CARB to be asociated and concerned with the automobile. Because if the car can't pass the test, it can't be driven. BAM...done...over...nothing to argue.

Now CARB can then use it's resources to examine other sources of greenhouse pollution. Which would be to the gain of ALL not just CA. You tell me why that's a bad idea.

WD

Brian, hate to disagree with you, because you had a good point until I thought about it.

How many of us have "Illegal" parts on our cars that we swap out for a smog check and then re-install?

Now, on the flip side. Cops normally only pull people over and check under their hood if they are making obnoxious amounts of noise. So it could be said that the current enforcement of CARB is no better than what you proposed, either way, we need a cheap, efficient method of keeping pollution down while not cutting away at the common citizen's right to happiness.

Note: The bill of rights mentioning"...Life, liberty, and the persuit of hapiness..." The persuit of hapiness part is our forefather's amazing foresight into a 2009 GTR

[rn79870]

Note: The bill of rights mentioning"...Life, liberty, and the persuit of hapiness..." The persuit of hapiness part is our forefather's amazing foresight into a 2009 GTR

If the pursuit of happiness is what they really had in mind, renting women would be legal in all 50 states. They just want you happy enough to be quiet.

[WDRacing]

No, the numbers are set due to standards and time lines, and the manufacturers ability to conform to them. They most certainly are not arbitrary as I think you are implying.

No no, you misunderstand what I'm saying. If we implement MY idea, CARB can set the standard that we all have to go by to pass the emissions test. Then the state can give the tests and issue pass/fail certificates and the registry or who ever can issue a new sticker. Simple really...not much way for it to fail.

CARB could also raise the standard for emissions anually if the need arises. It's a system that is in place in many other states and will work in CA. Especially if CARB monitors it.

Brian, hate to disagree with you, because you had a good point until I thought about it.

How many of us have "Illegal" parts on our cars that we swap out for a smog check and then re-install?

Now, on the flip side. Cops normally only pull people over and check under their hood if they are making obnoxious amounts of noise. So it could be said that the current enforcement of CARB is no better than what you proposed, either way, we need a cheap, efficient method of keeping pollution down while not cutting away at the common citizen's right to happiness.

Note: The bill of rights mentioning"...Life, liberty, and the persuit of hapiness..." The persuit of hapiness part is our forefather's amazing foresight into a 2009 GTR

My idea is better because the cost to you and I is less since we don't have to buy CARB certified parts. And the small bussiness can again compete with the conglomerates for a piece of the market. Unless you enjoy seeing us lose money to the Chinese market.

The main point is this, with mu plan you don't need to swap stock parts back on at all, because your existing parts will most likely pass the emissions test that CARB sets the standard for. If they don't, then you are in the wrong. This also gives the tuner, like me, the option to tune the ecu so I can lower my own emissions output. Which currently is illegal unless the ecu or other tuning device has a carb cert.

Am I not making this clear enough for everyone?

WD

[WDRacing]

If the pursuit of happiness is what they really had in mind, renting women would be legal in all 50 states. They just want you happy enough to be quiet.

Sounds good to me

[AZhitman]

In California, A part that has been issued a CARB exemption has been subjected to strict laboratory testing as required by CARB in order to demonstrate that the replacement part will not increase emissions. In these cases, they are legal replacements.

I guess my point is, I can't trust ANYTHING from a government program that requires "strict laboratory testing" to demonstrate that an exhaust pipe or intake will not increase emissions.

The EXPENSE to attain CARB Certification is absurd, and prohibits many small manufacturers from participating in the free market... And that, my friend, is so typical of the "more-and-bigger-government" party that birthed CARB.

You do have a good point on the market's support of lower emissions, although I will add that most emissions controls result in lower efficiency. Sacrificing MPG in the name of cleanliness is akin to taking one step forward and one step back (albeit not likely on a 1:1 ratio of course).

[jae_k]

I know im a little late on this topic but i just have one question, does this mean Maryland will be going through that crap later on in the near future or has it already begun?

[C-Kwik]

I think the problem is that with some types of parts, they can actually cause emissions increases. Not necessarily at the tailpipe, but elsewhere. An intake, for example, shouldn't have much if any effect on tailpipe emissions, but I have seen several designs that eliminate the crankcase ventilation connection entirely, including a breather filter with the intake. While the solution could be as simple as making sure smog check techs know to look for this, do you think the government really trusts that they can leave such things in their hands? I understand the reasoning behind what they do. Are there better ways? Sure. Are they perfect. Nope.

[audtatious]

The solution is to remove all cars and provide bikes to the public.

[BigWill]

I couldn't agree more AZ. The government has a habit of manipulating test results, spinning media releases, and generally drawing the wool curtains over our collective eyes to make things seem rosy while they line their pockets. If the true goal were to reduce oil consumption, we could have done much better by now. If the true goal were to reduce the greenhouse emissions, we could already be much further toward that outcome. One has to ask why the government and car manufacturers are getting behind E85 Ethanol so quickly, when there are many arguments pointing to the fact that it not only takes more energy to grow and process the crops than is saved by the use of the fuel, but that it takes roughly 1.5 times the fuel to produce the same amount of power, (resulting in higher cost to consumers than current petro-fuels). Burning more fuel = creating more emissions, right? Sure, the technology is in it's infancy, and there is research to suggest that all of the plant matter may be able to be utilized, but why focus so heavily on redirecting precious growing acreage to produce crops for the sole purpose of continuing to feed our vehicular vanity, rather than finding another solution and using the land to grow crops that will actually feed PEOPLE! It's simple... the price per ton of crop is FAR higher when used for processing for fuel. Higher prices, increased taxes.

I'm just addressing the economic side of the issue! I didn't even touch on the political band-wagon-jumping that takes place on the back of the need to find alternatives.

Ok, I'm done... for now

Modified by BigWill at 2:38 AM 2/28/2008
Modified by BigWill at 2:48 AM 2/28/2008

[rn79870]

I think the problem is that with some types of parts, they can actually cause emissions increases. Not necessarily at the tailpipe, but elsewhere. An intake, for example, shouldn't have much if any effect on tailpipe emissions, but I have seen several designs that eliminate the crankcase ventilation connection entirely, including a breather filter with the intake. While the solution could be as simple as making sure smog check techs no to look for this, do you think the government really trusts that they can leave such things in their hands? I understand the reasoning behind what they do. Are there better ways? Sure. Are they perfect. Nope.

C_Kwik, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. The government simply doesn't trust anyone not wearing a black suit to do it correctly. Instead, they require what may be an unreasonable amount of hoops to jump through.

[rn79870]

I know im a little late on this topic but i just have one question, does this mean Maryland will be going through that crap later on in the near future or has it already begun?

Yes jae_k, Maryland is one of the states suing Washington to allow the stiffer CARB standards. Keep in mind that this is multifaceted though, on one hand we are talking about new vehicle standards, the other we have been talking about what is legal/not legal for existing vehicles. AZhitmans example of a new exhaust for an older 240 for example where such a patently simple process becomes overly burdensome.

The lawsuit, and the Original Post (thread) here was addressing the proposed new vehicle standards, with respect to 44mpg CAFE, not existing emission regulations for older cars. The thread simply broadened in scope some.

Whether or not Maryland adopts the tough standards for existing cars has nothing to do with CARB, unless Maryland decides to jump on the CARB bandwagon and adopt the emission rules and standards. CARB is regulatory in California only. You are not bound by CARB requirements, (unless Maryland adopts them) but you are bound by EPA requirements. CARB's requirements are stiffer.

Most people here are complaining that CARB is the bully who is forcing unreasonable standards upon them. They have even presented some viable arguments to that end. I see their point, but, I disagree. That's why this thread is getting longer by the day.

[rn79870]

... If the true goal were to reduce oil consumption, we could have done much better by now. If the true goal were to reduce the greenhouse emissions, we could already be much further toward that outcome...

Will think about what you are saying about oil consumption. Now, look around your neighborhood. How many Sentras do you see? How many SUVs? How many Club Cab trucks? How many solo operators in those monsters?

The US has not taken a leadership role in reducing GHGs. In fact, we are in the back of the bus if at all. I'm not sure the current administration even knows what a GHG is.

I don't believe E85 is the way to go either. It is merely a way to reduce oil imports a little. In my opinion, Honda has found the answer, and has started making it available. http://automobiles.honda.com/f...a.com

ZERO emission, ZERO gasoline. It's good looking, even the color is awesome. Yeah, Infiniti needs one.

[WDRacing]

In the end we can agree that the GOV has handled the environmental scene badly at best. There are no plans, at least none that I will bet on, that will come to fruition anytime soon. By plans, I mean ones that will actually effect the US as a whole. Car emissions control is a drop in the bucket...and the bucket is friggin huge.

Tragically, America has become a place that waits for the problem to boil over, or at least reach boiling, before they put any real earnest effort towards a solution.

Be it immigration, security, global greenhouse effects or any number of the 100's of real issues we have. They are all treated the same way. If there is no money to be made in it, then it doesn't get any attention.

Again, like most serious topics, it boils down to Politics and or their utter corruption. With gas prices reaching $4 a gal this summer it will be a miracle if we don't have another Great Depression. Then again, anyone with a brain that follows the financial irresponsibility of the US has realized months ago that you simply can't pump Billions of dollars out of the country and still continue to support the nations most prized possession...its people.

I'm off on a tangent and I apologize ahead of time...it's just hard for me to sit back and watch things deteriorate and know that there's nothing I can do to stop the wave.

WD

[audtatious]

C_Kwik, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. The government simply doesn't trust anyone not wearing a black suit to do it correctly. Instead, they require what may be an unreasonable amount of hoops to jump through.

And I have seen a complete lack of govt ability to do anything correctly either when it comes to these issues due to special interest groups. In these cases it's always a F-up with the general public being on the bottom of a dogpile they are having to pay 1000x too much for.

[rn79870]

...it's just hard for me to sit back and watch things deteriorate and know that there's nothing I can do to stop the wave.WD

That's the problem. Everyone with a different opinion assumes defeat andlets it go at that. Look around and find associations, clubs, organizations who are lobbying for reasonableness in these issues, and don't be silent. It is easier to prevent than to undo.

[audtatious]

In my opinion, Honda has found the answer, and has started making it available. http://automobiles.honda.com/f...a.com

ZERO emission, ZERO gasoline. It's good looking, even the color is awesome. Yeah, Infiniti needs one.

"The major greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes about 36–70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth (not including clouds); carbon dioxide, which causes 9–26%; methane, which causes 4–9%, and ozone, which causes 3–7%"

From your link on the Honda Clarity:

"The FCX Clarity was designed from the ground up to be a fuel cell vehicle that runs on electricity powered by hydrogen, and emits only water vapor and heat into the air."

So, I would not call that a zero emission car

[rn79870]

And I have seen a complete lack of govt ability to do anything correctly either when it comes to these issues due to special interest groups. In these cases it's always a F-up with the general public being on the bottom of a dogpile they are having to pay 1000x too much for.

That's exactly what has happened. The old "it's for your own good" with a little "let the ends justify the means" thrown in for good measure. The bottom line is that the environment in California is better today than it was 30 years ago. Stepping on little people for the public good is nothing new. I may not agree with the means, but I am a strong supporter of the results.

[AZhitman]

From your link on the Honda Clarity:

"The FCX Clarity was designed from the ground up to be a fuel cell vehicle that runs on electricity powered by hydrogen, and emits only water vapor and heat into the air."

So, I would not call that a zero emission car

^ LOL - Jackass.

I'll say this, and it's something that's become VERY apparent in each and every post:

The common thread here is GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

When people realize that the gov't is not your mama, not your conscience, and not your savior, you'll be FAR better off.

A perfect example, that I brought up before, is the X-Prize matter - One man, built of rugged individualism and self-reliance, making a difference in the world.

I'll follow someone like that to the ends of the Earth.

Take a look around and understand that throwing money and regulations at a problem does NOT make it go away... Unfortunately, while this used to be a characteristic of "The Left", the Right has become more and more guilty of it of late.

[WDRacing]

That's the problem. Everyone with a different opinion assumes defeat andlets it go at that. Look around and find associations, clubs, organizations who are lobbying for reasonableness in these issues, and don't be silent. It is easier to prevent than to undo.

You'd be wrong if you think I'm not a supporter of "The Loud People"...

I write Congress and Senators in both pen/paper and email form. Facts are facts, until we can eliminate lobbiests NO real change will be seen in the major decisions that need to be made.

Big Oil and Big Money will win the day because in the end powerful people = Greedy people. Since powerful people are the ones making the rules, you can guess who's gonna take the beating.

I'll continue to "Yell" my objections as best I can, but is has done little good in the past to influence a country that bases it's opinions off of what the media tells them.

WD

[audtatious]

That's exactly what has happened. The old "it's for your own good" with a little "let the ends justify the means" thrown in for good measure. The bottom line is that the environment in California is better today than it was 30 years ago. Stepping on little people for the public good is nothing new. I may not agree with the means, but I am a strong supporter of the results.

Supporter of the results due to cleaner air/less "brown out" or because it helps work towards a resolution to their MMGW projects?

[rn79870]

"The major greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes about 36–70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth (not including clouds); carbon dioxide, which causes 9–26%; methane, which causes 4–9%, and ozone, which causes 3–7%"

From your link on the Honda Clarity:

"The FCX Clarity was designed from the ground up to be a fuel cell vehicle that runs on electricity powered by hydrogen, and emits only water vapor and heat into the air."

So, I would not call that a zero emission car

Water vapor is naturally occurring. CO2 to a much lesser extent. The U.S. EPA ranks the major greenhouse gas contributing end-user sectors in the following order: industrial, transportation, residential, commercial and agricultural.

You're right, clouds, even rain are the product of water vapor. How is it that you feel this is tantamount to, or even in the same page as CO2, NOX, etc? Burning fossil fuel is not even remotely as clean as a fuel cell car. Plus, the balance of trade might look a little more favorable if we could export our oil resources. Win/win.

[WDRacing]

That's exactly what has happened. The old "it's for your own good" with a little "let the ends justify the means" thrown in for good measure. The bottom line is that the environment in California is better today than it was 30 years ago. Stepping on little people for the public good is nothing new. I may not agree with the means, but I am a strong supporter of the results.

You sir just made me spit up my coffee...

That train of thought has gotten us where we are today. Or do you fail to realize that? "Well, who cares how much smog we're pumping into the atmosphere, we can fly back and forth to different countries way cheaper if we ignore all the crap that we spew out"...

Good God man...

[rn79870]

Supporter of the results due to cleaner air/less "brown out" or because it helps work towards a resolution to their MMGW projects?

Like I've said, I like not having my eyes burn, or my chest hurt from breathing dirty air. I like looking over my house, as I did this morning, and seeing the snow covered mountains some 40 miles to the east. I like swimming in a clean ocean, driving on clean (swept) streets. That's what I mean by results. Whatever has happened, it is working. Could it be better and less intrusive? I imagine so, but what we have has worked.

[rn79870]

You sir just made me spit up my coffee...

That train of thought has gotten us where we are today. Or do you fail to realize that? "Well, who cares how much smog we're pumping into the atmosphere, we can fly back and forth to different countries way cheaper if we ignore all the crap that we spew out"...

Good God man...

One thing at a time. The EPA is looking at aircraft (see earlier in this thread). One thing at a time. Cheap has never been a consideration has it?

[WDRacing]

The U.S. EPA ranks the major greenhouse gas contributing end-user sectors in the following order: industrial, transportation, residential, commercial and agricultural.

In the transportation category, how much is made up of other then the public automobile?

[audtatious]

Water vapor is naturally occurring. CO2 to a much lesser extent. The U.S. EPA ranks the major greenhouse gas contributing end-user sectors in the following order: industrial, transportation, residential, commercial and agricultural.

You're right, clouds, even rain are the product of water vapor. How is it that you feel this is tantamount to, or even in the same page as CO2, NOX, etc? Burning fossil fuel is not even remotely as clean as a fuel cell car. Plus, the balance of trade might look a little more favorable if we could export our oil resources. Win/win.

So, shift from one to another when both are contributors to GW in order to make people feel better about themselves? Water Vapor is THE #1 contributor to the greenhouse effect. Sure, we would have less CO2 at the expense of more water vapor. The media and environmentalists are all pushing this crap as another effort to fix MMGW (which is not proven in the first place) and when the "sheeple" see things like "zero emissions" they assume it will help end what us horrible humans have done to mother earth in the last 200 years.

From a pollution perspective to lower brown outs and such and to give us an alternative to petrolium? Sure, I'm all for it as long as they don't make the damn cars ugly as fawk like the damn Prius nor that Honda.

[AZhitman]

One thing at a time. The EPA is looking at aircraft (see earlier in this thread). One thing at a time. Cheap has never been a consideration has it?

One thing at a time is brilliant.

...but START with the WORST offenders.

You don't build a pyramid from the point down.

"It's for your own good" terrifies me, and again, while it used to be the mating call of the Left, now the right has started using it.

Either way, it's evil. I'd rather choke on haze than let some bureaucrat who's less intelligent than me manage my life.

[AZhitman]

A lot of this debate depends on whether MMGW is even REAL.

I'll keep my opinion to myself, but go do a little research and see how many GHG's a volcanic eruption creates.

Mother Nature does more "damage" in a couple burps than the entire human race has done since the Industrial Age began.

Some humans are so self-centered they can only think of "time" from their own selfish perspective. The Earth was here LONG before Al Gore, and it'll be around LONG after he's gone.