I need information!!

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

THE ENGINE PLANS WERE TO USE DOMED PISTONS AND THAT WOULD CAUSE THE GREATEST COMPRESSION. ESSENTIALLY IT WOULD BE WELL OVER 13.5/1, I WAS TALKING ABOUT IF THEY WERE FLAT TOPPED. THEN WHEN YOU ADD DOMED PISTONS AND A STROKER THE COMPRESSION SKY ROCKETS. I'M SORRY I SHOULD OF SPECIFIED.

Post by **Evil98Silvia** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Yea, Ive never scene a 12 or 13 second N/A ka. I would like to see that someday! I wouldnt wanna see how much money it took though.

Robbie

Post by **Tweaky_Tom** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

why go vroom, vroom when you can go....screeeetch, VRAAAOOOOOOOOOOM PHSSSSFFFFSSF SCREEETCH VRAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOM PHSSSSFSFS and be dont with it?

Post by **Tweaky_Tom** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

*done with it...sorry

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

BECAUSE IF YOU CAN BUILD NA YOU CAN BUILD ANYTHING.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

IF IN THE END I CREATE A 12 SECOND OR LESS NA 240SX WITHOUT NOS THEN I KNOW I COULD MAKE A 9 SEC TURBO 240SX FOR THE SAME PRICE OR LESS.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Musicsurfman unless you are planning an engine swap you will never run a 12 second 1/4 mile with a N/A 240sx. Its stupid to post that you will or could because you WONT and CANT. I can tell by your claims and the fact that you type only in caps that you dont have the mechanical skill and knowlege to build an N/A KA24. FYI the KA24 already has a huge stroke so if you knew even the smallest **** about it you wouldnt suggest putting a stroker kit on it. Wake up, stop dreaming, and stop filling us full of your ****.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

musicsurfman wrote:IF YOU READ MY POST ABOUT BUILDING MY KA24E, THAT WOULD GET YOU WELL INTO THE 12'S AND MAYBE THE EARLY 11'S ON PUMP 93 OCTANE. WITH OCTANE BOOSTED TO RACING GRADE 116, YOU SHOULD HIT THE 10'S.

Yeah, whatever. You cant run over 11:1 on 93 octane. Also increasing the octane doesnt give you enough power to go from 11s to 10s. So unless you plan on swapping out for some higher compression pistons at the track you arent gonna get any time gain by upping the octane level in your fuel. Go home and play with your hotwheels. When you figure out how to change your oil yourself come back and tell us about your 11 second NA KA24.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

OK ONE, YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE TOO STUPID TO SCROLL UP AND READ MY SIGNATURE BECAUSE IT EXPLAINS THE REASON WHY I AM TYPING IN CAPS. TWO, THE STROKER KIT IS ALREADY IN THE PROCESS OF MASS PRODUCTION. THREE, A 12 SECOND QUARTER MILE IS WAY EASY TO OBTAIN NA WITH MONEY. FOUR, MY ENGINE IS GOING TO COST 10K PLUS TO BUILD. FIVE, I HAVE WORKED WITH ALL TYPES OF CARS AND WE HAVE MADE PLENTY OF 12 SECOND I4 NA CARS. SIX, JUST BECAUSE IT HASEN'T BEEN DONE YET DOESN'T MEEN IT IS NOT POSSIBLE. SEVEN, MOST PEOPLE TAKE THE EASY ROUTE AND USE FORCED INDUCTION OR N2O TO BOOST POWER THUS BEING THE REASON WHY IT HASEN'T BEEN DONE YET. EIGHT, DON'T USE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST ME BECAUSE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME OR EVEN KNOW WHAT ME AND MY BUSINESS PARTNER HAVE ACHIEVED FROM NOTHING. NINE, JUST SHUT THE HELL UP IF YOU HAVE NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO SAY.

DOES IT LOOK LIKE I RUN AROUND AND ATTACK PEOPLE FOR WHAT THEY SAY THEY PLAN ON DOING? NO, I DON'T BECAUSE ANYTHING CAN BE ACHIEVED WITH TIME, MONEY, AND HALF A BRAIN.

ON ANOTHER NOTE YES I AM DOING AN ENGINE SWAP. ITS CALLED RB20DET. SEE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME, IF YOU DID YOU WOULD KNOW THAT SIMPLE FACT.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Youre still a moron thinking you can make a KA24 hit 11s, but guess whats even dumber...you think you can do it on 93 pump gas! If you hit 11s in a 240sx with a KA24E naturally aspirated I will pay for your motor rebulid. If you do it on 93 octane gas I will give you another 5k on top of paying for the engine you built. Im serious too...as serious as anyone making a bet that cant be lost.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

ARE YOU WILLING TO SIGN A CONTRACT OVER IT? I'LL GLADLY SHOVE THIS MOTOR DOWN YOUR THROAT WHEN I AM DONE STOMPING ALL OVER YOU.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

And what does you doing an RB20DET swap have to do with anything? Im talking about running 12s or faster on a NA 240sx. I meant swapping to an engine capable of pushing a 240sx faster than 12s naturally aspirated.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

OHH WELL I MISUNDERSTOOD THAT. I THOUGHT YOU MEANT ANY ENGINE SWAP.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

ANYWAY I'M NOT TRYING TO FIGHT WITH YOU BUT I'LL GLADLY PROVE YOU WRONG. IT CAN AND EVENTUALLY WILL BE DONE BUT BY WHO IS THE QUESTION, SOME MORON FROM PHOENIX OR SOME RICH JAPANESE GUY WHO DECIDE ONE DAY THAT THE KA24E IS A GOOD POWERPLANT FOR HIS NEEDS? YOU ARE QUICK TO SAY ANYTHING WITHOUT ATTEMPTING IT.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

I was going to attempt the NA KA24 route, but then i realized it was impossible to run the times i wanted to without reengineering the KA24. To run 12s or faster you would have to change so much it wouldnt even be a KA24 anymore. So i sold my high compression parts and am in the process of doing an SR20 swap.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

SO WHY DO YOU CUT ME DOWN? BECAUSE IT IS POSSIBLE WITH ALITTLE OF YOUR OWN ENGINEERING.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

No. Not a little...more like building a new engine and calling it a KA24. Which I dont consider using a KA24. You would have to build a new head completely because the stock head couldnt flow enough even with a big port and polish. Youre talking about putting down ~400HP to run 11s in a gutted 240sx. And with a KA24 head it isnt going to happen. Now that i think about it...even with a new head and EVERY N/A mod available i dont think you could make a KA24 block get a car across the finish line in under 12 seconds.

EDIT: and im not even talking about using 93 octane anymore because you must have been smoking something when you came up with that one.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

OK, SO YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT HEAD WORK, BUT ITS OK. YOU DON'T NEED 400HP TO RUN 12SEC QUARTER IF YOU HAVE 350HP AND ALL YOUR TORQUE IS LOW YOU WILL RIP THROUGH THE QUARTER. HIGH LIFT SHORT DURATION CAMS WILL GIVE YOU THE TORQUE YOU NEED AND ALLOW YOU TO USE 93 OCTANE. BIGGER VALVES WILL GIVE YOU THE END GEAR POWER YOU NEED. BORED OUT INTAKE PLENUM AND Q45 90MM TB WILL GIVE YOU THE AIR FLOW. 1.5" HEADER PIPING, STRIGHTPIPE EXHAUST NO BIGGER THAN 2" WILL GIVE YOU THE ACCELERATION PRODUCING BACK PRESSURE. ULTRA COLD FUEL WILL STOP PINGS, KNOCKS, AND DETONATION. ULTRA HOT SPARK WILL GIVE YOU THE CHAMBER EXPLOSION NEEDED TO PRODUCE THAT POWER. ULTRA LIGHT FLYWHEEL, UL UNDERDRIVE PULLEY MINUS PSP, WP, ACP, ULTRA SLOW ROTAION ALTERNATOR, AND ALUMINUM DRIVE SHAFT WILL HELP THE ENGINE REV. FORD LOCKER DIFF TO SLAM THE POWER TO THE GROUND. ELECTRIC WATER PUMP TO REPLACE WATER PUMP. HUGE OIL PAN AND PUMP TO LUBRICATE ENGINE. ULTRA LIGHT WHEELS TO PUT LESS ROTATING MASS ON THE CAR. THERE IS ALOT MORE THAT WOULD NEED TO BE DONE TO LIST, BUT YOU SHOULD GET MY JIST THAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING THIS THROUGH AND NOT PULLING IT OUT OF MY ***.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Im glad you thought it through, but thats still not gonna put down ~350 whp. I like the drivetrain thought to increase 1/4 time but you still have to have alot of HP to move you down the track. And that engine wont produce it. You wont convice me till you show me a video or run it in front of me. At this point im confident ill die an unconvinced man.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

OK WHEN I GET THIS PROJECT DONE I'LL START ON THIS ENGINE AND PROVE IT CAN BE DONE. AND I'LL KEEP RECIEPTS JUST TO KEEP YOU INFORMED OF HOW MUCH YOU'LL OWE ME FOR THAT ENGINE.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Sounds good, Ill keep ahold of that extra 5g's for when you do it on 93 octane too :beatfreak

Post by **:: orion ::** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

OK guys...lets put some science behind this:

HP = (TQ * RPM) / 5250

To make power, you either increase TQ, or increase revs. It hard to increase revs on the KA stock, but...

To use a 2.7 liter with a RIDICULOUS stroke like it will require to make the KA that big, and the cams you want (short duration, high lift)...you won't be able to rev more than 5000-5500rpm and make ANY power. That's a fact.

So revs are out - You need to increase torque to make the power then...

So to make your required 350HP...at lets say 4500rpm, you'll need 408ft/lbs at the same RPM to do it. That's impossible from such little displacement without forced induction...

And let's assume the numbers above...if you assumed a realistic power curve, you'd be making ~500ft/lbs at around 3000rpm - Which is 286HP at 3500rpm...No f'in way.

Sorry man, but it's impossible to make that power in the way you want to. Big V8s barely make numbers like that when well prepped/setup, so there's NO WAY you can with half the displacement.

If you don't believe my numbers, do the math yourself and figure out what TQ you'll need at what RPM to succeed...

An please don't respond with speculative answer, or "you'll see..." - Show us some #s or facts, please.

Later - Brian

Post by **S13Ka24e** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

I would like to through in my 2 cents,

Lets say you rip apart a S13, say down to 2300lbs, i know you would have to gutt it, fuel cell, carbonfiber body panels, etc. I'm just saying if this was a pure drag car, I feel that you could get an S13 to about 2300 lbs w/driver.

Now the highest horsepower Ka24e i have ever heard of is 285rwhp (nissan motorsports ka24e, the ones with carbs) I would think that with high compression, EFI, ITB, and a stroker crank, etc., you could push MAX 300rwhp. Now you put that in a 2300 pound car and you could break 12's.

As already said, i personally feel that this would be a waste, with 1/2 this money you could make a ka into the 11's with a turbo or nitrous. But if you wanted to make a pure drag car have 15-20K lying around i think you could make a S13 run 11's.

Post by **JJ240** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

Theres no way youre going to hit 300whp if the nissan motorsports one only makes 285. And I dont believe 285whp in a gutted 240sx would hit 12s with that little HP.

EDIT: and yet again I forgot its going to be done on 93 octane pump gas

Post by **S13Ka24e** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

In my post I was talking about using either 110+ octane (so we are talking cr of 14:1 or higher) or alocohol.

FYI: all motor civics and integras with a weight of around 1800 lbs and a 300hp motor run have run low 10's in the 1/4 so if a 2300 rwd car with 300hp and more tq could push in the 12's, and probably 11's.

Post by **:: orion ::** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

But again...as we know, the Honda "All Motor" drag cars do it off revs - A redline of 9000-10,000rpm can make 300HP.

But 'musicsurfman' is proposing a super low redline by crazy stroke and short duration, high lift (aka stump pulling) cams...

What was the redline on the Nissan Motorsports motors...? - Probably at least 7500...

And I agree that a 2300lb 240SX can run 11s with close to 300rwhp...but play around with this online dyno / quarter mile estimator - It's not super accurate, but you'll get the idea.

(I say it's not super accurate b/c it says that my S14, which weighs exactly 3090 with me in it, would have 270rwhp to run a 104 trap - I'm about 15-20 shy of that, though...)

Later- Brian

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

THE NISMO RUNS OFF OF STOCK BASED INTERNALS, BESIDES CAM CHANGE. THEY USE A LONG DURATION, AND SEMI TALLER LIFT CAM. I WANT A STROKER, WHICH UPS TORQUE BY 40+% JUST WITH THAT. SUPER HIGH LIFT CAMS WITH A SHORT DURATION, IS ANOTHER GREAT TORQUE ADDER BY ABOUT 10 TO 15%. NOW YOU OPEN UP VALVES, USE AGRESSIVE POLISHING AND PORTING YOU'LL GET A FREEER FLOW FOR EVEN MORE POWER. LIGHTEN UP THE ROTATING MASS, KNIFE EDGE THE INTERNALS AND YOU ALLOW MORE FREE REV. RESTRICT THE EXHAUST WITH SMALL PIPING FOR A MORE POWERFUL ACCELERATION. NUMBER AREN'T ALWAYS A DETERMINING FACTOR, ITS ALSO DRIVING ABAILITY. THIS ENGINE WOULD GO INTO A COMPLETELY GUTTED CAR. OHH AND IF I SUPER COOL THE FUEL 93 OCTANE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH. IF I CHANGE THE DIFFERENTIAL TO A SUPER LOW RATIO THAT IS ALL ACCELERATION TOO. SHORTEN THE FIRST 4 GEAR SPANS THEN EXTEND THE 5TH FOR TOP END 5TH GEAR. 12'S AREN'T OUT OF THE QUESTION. IF EVERYONE WENT BY NUMBERS NOTHING WOULD EVER GET ACHIEVED BECAUSE EVERYTHING WOULD BE UNOBTAINABLE. AND YEAH THIS WOULD BECOME A TOTALLY UNSTREETABLE DRAG MACHINE BUT MY POINT WOULD BE PROVEN. V8'S MAKE THAT WITH THERE EYES CLOSED, 300HP IS A WALK IN THE PARK FOR THEM.

Post by **:: orion ::** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

musicsurfman wrote:IF EVERYONE WENT BY NUMBERS NOTHING WOULD EVER GET ACHIEVED BECAUSE EVERYTHING WOULD BE UNOBTAINABLE. AND YEAH THIS WOULD BECOME A TOTALLY UNSTREETABLE DRAG MACHINE BUT MY POINT WOULD BE PROVEN.

A guy a a roadside tire place once told me:

"Boy, you can't fu@k with physics..."

That statement holds true here...the number don't lie.

I'll do the math another way:

Again, assuming you want this stroker motor/torque beast that can't rev higher than 5000...

We can computer HP based on volumetric efficiency, RPM, atmospheric pressure, displacement, and compression ration.

See here...

So using 14.5 for AP, 2.7liters = 165 CID, 13.5:1 compression ratio, a good VE of 1.05, and a redline (max power) at 5000rpm, you get...drumroll please:

214rwhp!!!

Now, double the displacement (i.e. assume it's a V8) and you get twice the power = 428rwhp.

EDIT: Or you can do what the Hondas do, and double the RPM. You can't change the AP, you can only marginally improve the VE, and we determined that without boost probably the highest CRis 13.5-14:1...

It just CAN NOT be done with such little displacement in the manner you want to do it...

Later

Post by **improved** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

musicsurfman

I say go for it. Why not build the KA. Even if you don't make your goal. You might find new ways of modifiying the KA that might have been overlooked. You might find better air flow ideas and well power somewhere hidden in the KA that others ~might~ have missed.

Good Luck.:ylsuper

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 2:19 pm

THANKS, YOU KNOW IN THE END I COULD BE WRONG VERY WRONG BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I AM SURE AS HELL GOING TO TRY. YEAH I'M ****Y ABOUT IT BUT HEY I HAVE SEEN WHAT PEOPLE CAN DO STARTING WITH NOTHING. AND YOU KNOW WHAT IF I AM PROVEN WRONG I'LL BE THE FIRST TO COME OUT AND ADMIT I WAS WRONG. ALTHOUGH SOME OF THIS WILL TAKE A LONG *** WHILE TO PULL OFF BUT I'LL GET IT DONE.

I need information!!

Do it

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