I might need to replace my head...

[Eikon]

I am sure you've seen a couple threads in the past from me talking about my engine making some strange noises. I thought at first my timing belt was too loud, or the CAS was bad or something like that.

Well, I had another NICO member (PsiloX) come up to visit yesterday to see if he could help me figure out what's up.

We found that the CAS was indeed bad, but, not really the problem.

Get this... all the noise comes from the front of the exhaust cam or cam wheel area. Upon closer inspection we found a bunch of metal shavings coming out from behind the cam wheel.

He said it might be one of two things.... either the Cam Wheel has a bad bearing or something like that.. Or, the cam is actually eating into the head somehow.

I really didn't want to beleive JonPowell when he said that might be a possibility in an earlier thread... I hate smart people..

Anyhow... I need to take off the valve cover and see if I can figure out what the heck is going on in there.

What do you guys think a new head might cost me. well a new used head at least... plus a head gasket... plus what else?

When I get the time to start taking the valve cover off, I will take some photos and post here asking for advice.

Thanks guys. Eikon

[Eikon]

BTW... Thanks a TON to PsiloX for taking the time to come look at my engine with me. I really appreciate it!

[JonPowell]

Yank the cams & see how the head looks.

[Eikon]

dam... my camera is in Europe with my wife right now...

I took off the exhaust side rocker cover.

I don't see any evidence at all of any problem.. There are metal shavings outside the cam area... they come through the cam wheel and fall down onto the starter and other stuff in front. I took off the CAS brace and found a lot of metal shavings sitting in there.

There are no shavings inside the valve cover at all. Everything looks fine... not that I really know what I am looking at. I shined a light down below as far into the bottom of the head as I could.. I didn't see any evidence

Now that I have the cover off... what do I need to do to remove the cam? I want to make sure I don't get in over my head...

Do I take out the bolts that secure the cam. Do I have to take off the timing belt and cam gears to remove the cam?

I am guessing I need to by a torque wrench since i don't have one yet.

I am going to try to get a dig. camara from a friend on mine and post pics this afternoon.

Thanks for the help!!!

[Slo_240sx]

Hey Eikon, Take your front cover off fip it around and see if the CAS is rubbing on it. You also might have a bad waterpump where the bearings have gone bad but still is pumping collant so it wo't overheat. Take the timing belt off (Line up the timing marks, take belt off, don't rotate cams!) and spin the water pump or see if it has lateral movement. You might also have a bad tensioner bearing or pulley bad. If the valve cover is off and you see no shavings than it not internal. I'm gonna be going up into the U.P. this summer so if you guys want to meet up Gimme a holla [email protected]

[eh?]

Are you running without a front cam cover?

[Eikon]

Hey Eikon, Take your front cover off fip it around and see if the CAS is rubbing on it. You also might have a bad waterpump where the bearings have gone bad but still is pumping collant so it wo't overheat. Take the timing belt off (Line up the timing marks, take belt off, don't rotate cams!) and spin the water pump or see if it has lateral movement. You might also have a bad tensioner bearing or pulley bad. If the valve cover is off and you see no shavings than it not internal. I'm gonna be going up into the U.P. this summer so if you guys want to meet up Gimme a holla [email protected]

The sounds don't change from having the CAS on or off. We even put Justins (PsiloX) CAS on my engine, and it didn't change anything. The shaving appear to be from the center of the Cam Wheel... Are there bearing on the Cam Wheel? Do they attached directly to the cam itself, or do that attach through another part?

Right now I am thinking that I have a stuffed Cam Wheel. I think the bearing or the housing that it sits on or whatever it attaches to is shot. I think the engine is struggling to turn it which makes the lugging and struggling sound that I hear. But, the engine is strong enough to turn it, and continues to turn it... whatever it is jammed on or whatever is not wanting to spin is starting to sheer off and that's where all the metal shavings are coming from.

I just can't see what it is yet without either pulling out the exhaust cam, or pulling off the timing belt and the cam wheel.

Alex, I know the water pump is good. Just replaced it this spring. It's brand new.

I truly don't see any signs of shaving or anything inside the valve cover. I looked really close... but since oil circulates inside there, is it possible that if there were shavings, they have been circulated out of the head and are in the oil filter?

I think I need to either take out the exhaust cam, or take off the timing belt and the the Cam Wheel to see if I can figure it out.

If I can get my car running by the time you head up to the UP, I would love to hold the 1st annual U.P. Nico meet!

eh?.. I have drivin it only about 5 minutes with the timing cover off.

[eh?]

Did you use spacers between the CAS and the CAS bracket? if you didn't the Cam bolts will rub the CAS, creating shavings and a really bad noise. That happened to me b/c i didn't use spacers. The cam Wheel rides on the cam. The cams do not have bearings, they ride directly on the head.

[Eikon]

I used the little black spacers that were on the timing cover bolts and put them over the CAS bolts to make sure that the CAS didn't rub on the cam wheel. I would say they are at least 1/4" think.

Good idea though... I wish it were that simple.

So you said that the cam wheel attaches directly to the cam itself..? Do you know how? Are there screw holes drilled into the end of the cam? Does the cam have a square head that fits into a housing that then bolts to the cam wheel?

Has anyone taken the cams out... can you explain to me what parts are there behind the cam wheel?

I wish it were easy to just pop that wheel off, but that required taking off the timing belt... which requires removing the accessory belts, then you have to undo the tensioner and that other stuff that I a little scared to do at the moment.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

[yellow_jacket]

The cam belt pulley will have one large bolt right in the middle. This is what holds it on. Behind it, you will find a dowel pin to keep the thing timed up.

If you are picking up metal shavings from right behind the cam pulley, I would pull the pulley, the cams, and the oil seal. I have seen oil seals pop out and rub. This will also create metal shavings. If it were the actual bearings, you should not see any shavings as they would be held inside the head by the cam oil seal.

Right now it sounds like your best bet is to make sure that the cam bolt is tightened to spec, or to pull the cam pulley and find out what is creating the shavings.

[eh?]

Where exactly did you put the spacers? they need to be under the CAS, not under the bolt head. The Cam wheel bolts go into the cam and are positioned by a pin on the cam. Here is a pic from an RB25 they should be the same..

[240+civic=pimp]

Hey buddy I live about 2 hours from you and i have a spare rb20det. (complete)

You want the head?

[Eikon]

The cam belt pulley will have one large bolt right in the middle. This is what holds it on. Behind it, you will find a dowel pin to keep the thing timed up.

If you are picking up metal shavings from right behind the cam pulley, I would pull the pulley, the cams, and the oil seal. I have seen oil seals pop out and rub. This will also create metal shavings. If it were the actual bearings, you should not see any shavings as they would be held inside the head by the cam oil seal.

Right now it sounds like your best bet is to make sure that the cam bolt is tightened to spec, or to pull the cam pulley and find out what is creating the shavings.

Thanks Yellow Jacket! For an SR guy, your pretty damn smart! just playin...

What you said is finally starting to make sense to me. I have noticed that the sound that bothers me so much isn't really there when I first turn on the car. There is some noise, but it seems like a real minor rubbing... it's not til the car has run a bit that the noise get's worse and it actually seems to affect how the motor runs.

What I think it happening now is... Like you said... the oil seal must have popped out and is rubbing on the cam wheel.

What makes sense is that when I first turn the car on, the oil pressure is low and it doesn't force up against the cam wheel very hard. If I were to go out and drive it for a couple minutes... The oil pressure would go up and force this broken seal out further and make rub more harshly against the cam wheel... causing a bad sound and making the engine work harder to turn the cams... etc... AND... if the oil seal is indeed made of a metal of some type.... it would create metal shavings.

It all seems to add up.

Do you agree? Is there anything I am missing here?

Now the big question... Is it repairable? Can I get a new oil seal? Can I have the original oil seal welded back into place? Is the whole head shot because of it?

Obviously I will have to take off the timing belt and cam wheel in order to confirm this... and I am planning to build up the courage to do that one of these weekends.

I took a couple pics with a buddies digicam yesterday..as soon as he emails me I will post them for you guys to look at.

Thanks again for the help yellow_jacket, eh?, alex, jon.

[Eikon]

Where exactly did you put the spacers? they need to be under the CAS, not under the bolt head. The Cam wheel bolts go into the cam and are positioned by a pin on the cam. Here is a pic from an RB25 they should be the same..

Great picture... Thank you! I had no idea what that oil seal actually looked like... Now finding out that it's round makes some sense to me. I have a few metal shavings that are a shape like a single strand of DNA... best description I could think of....

I put the spacers in behind the CAS... really tough to line up on the bottom one.. you have to put the screws through the CAS then put the spacers on the back side, then put the CAS on and hope that you don't tip it and let the spacers fall off.

[eh?]

Are you getting an oil leakage from the Cam cover? The seal is made mostly of rubber, with a small metal spring in the middle. Why is your oil pressure at start up low? It should be very high.

[Eikon]

Hey buddy I live about 2 hours from you and i have a spare rb20det. (complete)

You want the head?

240+civic... Thank you!!!!God I love NICO... ask and you shall receive. I guess before I spend any money (I am assuming you are not offering it as a donation to a very good cause)... I need to find out if my problem is fixable.

If an oil seal is repairable, I would prefer to do that then buy and replace the entire head. Just the headgasket itself get's a little expensive.

Please let me know how much you are hoping for to sell it... email me at... [email protected]

[Eikon]

Are you getting an oil leakage from the Cam cover? The seal is made mostly of rubber, with a small metal spring in the middle. Why is your oil pressure at start up low? It should be very high.

I didnt' notice any oil leaking yet at all.

I was wondering what the oil seal was build of... seemed to me that seals should be mostly rubber... so maybe I am off base on that guess I made earlier.

I am certainly not an expert (though I am trying to learn more and more), but I was under the impression that oil pressure increases when you give a car higher throttle levels... Parts move fast, thus a need to circulate the oil more quickly and with more pressure those higher RPM's.. Isn't that how Toyota and Nissan's variable cam timing systems work.. When the oil pressure raises to a certian level it forces the cams over to an advanced setting...

Maybe the oil pressure level changes aren't the problem so much as just time factor... the longer you put pressure on an item, the more it will give...?

I am so confused!

[Carl H]

nah, you are thinking of vtec, it uses oilpressure to determine when to change cam lobes.nissan and toyota use electronic solenoids to change cam timing.if you need new cams seals get some from any year z32, thats what i did when i got my new cams and they are a direct replacment.

[eh?]

Start up idle rpm is higher and oil is thicker causing higher oil pressure. It does go down to normal when fully warmed.Nissan do use oil pressure in conjuction with the VTC soleniod to change Timing. However you have a RB20 so you don't have VTC.

[Eikon]

Here are pics

The outside of the cam wheel.. Tons of shavings all over. They are piled up in the CAS ratainer thingy as well.

Here is the inside of the exhaust cam... not even a trace of metal shavings?

[Slo_240sx]

Like Eh? said start up RPM is usually lower because the viscosity of the oil hasn't lowered due to the heat. Basically, once the engine warms up it warms the oil and thinnins it. Thats why you have Multi-viscosity oils ex. 5w-30 10w-40 etc, so they can change due to the environment.

Oil pressure WILL not push that seal out. First of all, the rocker area does not recieve pressure, only the cam bearing journals do. If oil pressure were to push it out, the valve cover would have to fill up with oil and it would have to force the seal out. The only pressure that would be under the valve covers will be PCV, positive ventilation crankcase pressure, and thats why they make a PCV valve to vent that back into the intake tract. Now thats brings this case up: It would not be oil pressure that will build but PCV pressure and it your PCV valve is STUCK CLOSE and not venting crankcase pressure THEN your seal will be pushed out. Find your PCV valve and check it, rule of thumb - pull it out and rattle it, if it rattles good, if not then no and, if in doubt change it because its not more than a 3 dollar item.

Also, your oil seal will not cause shaving as depicted. Your oil seal is rubber not metal and the cam gear will chew through it before it will also a seal to do damage. If the seal were bad than you would be leaking oil, which is the main purpose of a seal. Here what I would do now. To be honest since the CAS is bad I kind of want to condemn it to be the culprit but, an easy way to check: Take off your timing covers, put the crank pulley back on so the gear won't come off, use air and blow all of the shavings clean even behind the cam gears (make sure your valve cover is back on!) disconnect fuel and crank it over for about 10-15 seconds. Come back out and see if the shavings are still there. You just eliminated covers and the CAS. Try taking pics of the back of the covers to let us take a look also. Try al of that and get back with us bro Nico loves you too

[gawdzilla]

see if that cylinder 1 is being actuated by the cam lobe right now, if it is, turn it to a point where it is opposite of actuation.

then pop off that cam cap you took a photo of and check the surface underneath and the cap and the surface of the cam journal. that will also let you check the seal.

that first cam cap is the last one to get torqued down, so you can pop it off first too.

[Ramius83]

Here is another side note. Are the shavings magnetic? This will tell us if they are of steel or aluminum origin. (Magnetic is non-magnetic, steel is magnetic).

[Eikon]

Here is another side note. Are the shavings magnetic? This will tell us if they are of steel or aluminum origin. (Magnetic is non-magnetic, steel is magnetic).

Great idea Ramius. Thank you. I took a magnet out there. The shavings are aluminum then. They don't stick to the the magnet. The magnet sticks to the fenders, the cam itself, the outside of the head, the cam wheel...

The magnet doesn't stick to the air intake, the CAS bracket, the shavings, etc...

Alex.. You are wicked smart... A little over my head.. but I think I get what you are saying. So, it's not oil pressure, or an oil seal or anything like that.

I think you are wrong on the CAS... I could be wrong.. I usually am... but here is why I think it's not the CAS. When Justin came over the other day we swapped his CAS onto my engine. His CAS works perfectly. On my car the struggling sounds didn't change from his CAS to mine. I know that I need a new CAS... I have one in the mail now in fact, because mine was hard to rotate, but not so hard to cause all the problems itself.

Anyhow.. just the fact that we put a known perfectly working CAS on my engine and it didn't help leads me to believe it's something different.

Question... What's the end of the Camshaft made of... Aluminum or Steel?

Here's a pic I found of an RB20 cam. The end has four screw holes.

Could the shaving be coming of the end of the cam itself? Might that be the source? If so... what's it rubbing against to cause that?

It shouldn't be the cam wheel itself rubbing on the end of the cam like I was sort of thinking... it couldn't be because they are attached and turning at the same speed.

The head itself is steel right? Not aluminum?

[Eikon]

Alright.. now I am even more confused than ever...

I did like Gawdzilla said. I took off the front cam cover/retainer/whatever the hell you call that thing.

The cam is pristine.... nice and shiny and perfect on all areas near the front. Now that I can see a little better... there is absolutely no sign of wear or metal shavings/scratching/scoring or anything inside the oil seal. But, there is a hefty buildup of shavings outside the oil seal.

I got a cotton swab and put it between the oil seal and the inside of the cam wheel. The shavings come off and reveal a nice clean finish... again, no scratching or scoring.

So far the cam itself seems pristine and perfect.

Where the hell are the shavings coming from.. and why the hell does my car make struggling noises.

I AM SO FRUSTERATED!@

and a bad mechanic as well... the inside bolt that holds the cam cover on turned really hard.. I managed to get it to unscrew enough to finally pull the cam cover off.. but now the bolt is stuck... I might have stripped it or something.. I have no idea how or why... I've messed up bolts putting them in... like putting them in crooked... But, I've never messed up a bolt taking it out.. usually if it goes in right it should come out right.

Anyhow... help!

[eh?]

Take a pic of the CAS and CAS bracket. The only aluminum things in that are foward of the oil seal are those two.

[Eikon]

OK... Everybody say "Seth is stupid!"

I just looked at the back of the CAS again... sure enough, that's where the metal shavings are coming from. Not sure why I didn't check that more carefully. I thought for sure I had enough spacers on there.

So, the metal shavings thing has been solved. But, I still haven't figure out what causes the strange sounds from the head. Maybe I just need to give the timing belt a little time to break in properly.

Now i need to figure out how to put everything back together. When i get my new CAS.. tomorrow i think. I am sure I will start a new thread asking for help diagnosing the strange sound... maybe it will be better then.

I will see if I can come up with a video camera with some decent audio to post to see what you guys think.

As long as I have my valve covers off, I think I am going to paint them.

Thanks a ton for the help everyone!!! I really really appreciate it.

[eh?]

I just realized you have a power enterprise Timing belt. That sound is coming from the belt due to wrong belt tension. I also have that sound with my pwr t-belt. Been driving it everyday since feburary. Someone else has been driving it like that for a year.

[Eikon]

PsiloX has a power enterprises belt as well. he has like 10,000 miles on it. His doesn't seem to make much noise.

I compared mine belt with his... I think his is actually tighter than mine. Should you tighten the belt to get rid of the noise.. or loosen it?

Thanks eh?!

I just put a couple coats of red engine enamel on the valve covers. I am going to do like 2 more coats, then clear coat it a couple times.

Should be nice and shiney!

[Slo_240sx]

SETH IS STUPID! Wow did i call that one. Glad to see you got it fixed Hit me up sometime on Aim bro: Da DvS AzN-Alex