I have a few weeks to save two automakers.

[Jesda]

VW - Expansion into the US market. It hasn't been able to succeed here.
Chrysler - Saving it from extinction.


Pile of homework coming. I have some ideas spinning, starting with VW selling off its non-core assets and Chrysler canceling "Ram" as a separate division.

[nissangirl74]

I thought VW was huge, and only getting bigger. Am I confusing them with someone else?

Saving Chrysler is kind of pointless IMO. Not much to them anymore.

[MinisterofDOOM]

VW can start by appealing to people who aren't hippies, metrosexuals, douchebags, or some combination of the 3. That'd probably quintuple their sales alone. Oh, and build cars that don't make my eyes bleed.

I also think it was EXTREMELY foolish to neuter the Passat to make room for the CC. Stupid. Right now the CC and Passat are effectively competitors, and with the Passat's best features revoked to make the CC more appealing, there's basically no point in the Passat's continued existence.. VW at the very least needs to knock $5k off the Passat's base price to suit its new emasculated form and keep it competitive with the rest of the 4-banger front-driver family cars.

BRING BACK THE PHAETON. Now. The new A8 is sex. Let's see VW's take on it.

Chrysler is such a mess these days I'd kind of rather just see them die. Put them out of my misery. I'll miss the Ram, the Viper, and sort of miss the Charger. Nothing else they've made in the last decade is even on my radar.

I thought VW was huge, and only getting bigger. Am I confusing them with someone else?

VW is indeed massive, and they're doing very well on a global scale.
Their operations in the US are not doing so hot, though. They don't sell much, and their models aren't really competitive as much as just...existing in their own little realities. VW has this weird thing...there are VW people who absolutely know they want VWs, but everyone else pretty much ignores the company.
The primary problem, in my opinion, is that VW absolutely DOES NOT understand the north american market. At all.
Also, their pricing sucks. I mean, you can get a base model Accord for $21k or a base model Passat for $27k. Really...who the hell is going to buy the Passat?

[Jesda]

VW chases after niches. Eventually, they may find themselves too big, too widespread. Lambo sales are down. Audi is doing well. There's no reason for a Phaeton to exist when the A8 comes with a premium badge and premium dealer service.

VW is on the same path that GM was in the 90s, buying everything in sight. As for their US market troubles: reliability.

[MinisterofDOOM]

As for their US market troubles: reliability.

That, too.
But I can honestly say the Jetta still wouldn't be on my radar even if it had impeccable reliability. I'd rather have a 3. Or a Civic. Or a Corolla. Or a 10 year old Kia. Or a Yugo.

[marlin29311]

VW chases after niches. Eventually, they may find themselves too big, too widespread. Lambo sales are down. Audi is doing well. There's no reason for a Phaeton to exist when the A8 comes with a premium badge and premium dealer service.

VW is on the same path that GM was in the 90s, buying everything in sight. As for their US market troubles: reliability.

All I'm hoping is that their share in Porsche doesn't have the suck roll over to it...

[Bubba1]

VW - Expansion into the US market. It hasn't been able to succeed here.
Chrysler - Saving it from extinction.


Pile of homework coming. I have some ideas spinning, starting with VW selling off its non-core assets and Chrysler canceling "Ram" as a separate division.

I don't think VW will capture a bigger chunk of the US Market until they stop with their arrogant strategy of designing cars that force you to use the dealer for service. Many buyers don't realize this trap until after they buy a newer/new one.
One of the main reasons the orignal Beetle and Rabbits were among the best selling cars in the world was because of their simplicity and ability to be fixed by anyone.
Nowadays, it requires an expensive special tool just to check the frigging AT Fluid.

[sx moneypit]

People do not realize that when they buy a VW it is going to cost about the same to repair them as a Mercedes does. As far as i am concerned they are junk.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

I see a lot of VW's up here in Philly, granted the majority of those are the Beetle and the GTi but there are a ton of them on the road. I have see a handful of Jetta's and only 1 or 2 of the new Cabriolet things. But for some reason women really love the new Beetle, I think it's because depending on what color you get you get a corresponding fake flower to go into the fake vase on the dash. Whatever happened to the days when the Beetle was the must have cars for both guys and girls. Guys would replace the existing power train with one out of either a 911 turbo or drop a small block 350 in them and rape fools on the drag strip or use them as dune buggies.

As far as Chrysler goes, I think it's just the Chrysler brand and not Dodge or Jeep that is suffering, and really when the only thing you have to offer people is a minivan or 4, a Sebring, and the ghetto favorite 300 you can't really succeed. Besides I though Alfa Romeo or Citreon bought them out and was bringing their cars stateside.

I think that VW needs to focus more on customer satisfaction and marketing than trying to make their cars lower end models of Audi at near Audi prices. While I've never driven a VW, I will say that the GTi and R34's are kinda appealing if I were to go for a euro-styled fast hatch.

[TroubleBound]

Ive never really had a thing for VW's cause they look terrible and i dont know anything about them.
BUT i did drive a Golf GTI (i dont even know what year..99ish if i had to guess..dont feel like looking them up) and it ended up being a hell of a lot funner than i expected it to be. My used car dealer bought it from an auction so it was no ones car at the time, so i could have all the fun i wanted. It was agile and had decent acceleration, good litle traffic weaver. The one thing i remember that really bothered me, was that the damn shifter was a fricken golf ball.

[Jesda]

Rocked the presentation. Its amazing how ignorant VW's German managers are of American buyers. They need to do what Honda and Toyota did in the 90s and go around the country asking people what they want, and then build it. A new plant in TN should bring prices down.

I'll never understand why a f*** VW badge belongs on a $100,000 superlux car that shares showroom space with Golfs.

I'll never understand why slapping a VW badge on a Dodge Grand Caravan and REMOVING features like Stow-and-Go and Swivel-And-Go while jacking up the price by over a grand ever seemed like a good idea. They actually thought they would sell 40,000 Routans per year. There are 10,000 Routans rotting away on dealer lots nationwide, and VW wont discount them because of brand integrity. If they cared about the VW brand, they wouldn't use it to sell Chryslers. That's how much they love the smell of their feces.

Loaded Honda Accord, 4-cyl, $27k
Loaded Passat, 4-cyl, $30k
The Accord is MUCH more reliable, more spacious, and cheaper to maintain.

VW is doing well globally, but they don't understand this market at all.

[Dattebayo]

Edited thread is edited

A lot of good points have gone missing from this one.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'll never understand why a f*** VW badge belongs on a $100,000 superlux car that shares showroom space with Golfs.

I would never buy a Phaeton, but I want them to continue existing so I can look at them.
Kind of like supermodels. I don't want one, but I don't want them to go away.
The Phaeton serves no real purpose other than looking fine. Which is a justifiable in the $100k range.


The Phaeton manages to do with VW's styling what none of its tinymobiles can: make it actually look good. Proportion, proportion, proportion.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'll never understand why a f*** VW badge belongs on a $100,000 superlux car that shares showroom space with Golfs.

I would never buy a Phaeton, but I want them to continue existing so I can look at them.
Kind of like supermodels. I don't want to keep one, I just want to look.
The Phaeton serves no real purpose other than looking fine. Which is a justifiable in the $100k range.


The Phaeton manages to do with VW's styling what none of its tinymobiles can: make it actually look good. Proportion, proportion, proportion; that's what it's all about.

And just look at that C-pillar. It should be in the Louvre.

Of course, that Phaeton is from 10 years ago. Were VW to design a fresh model today, it would likely be anything but beautiful.

[AZhitman]

Chrysler is such a mess these days I'd kind of rather just see them die. Put them out of my misery. I'll miss the Ram, the Viper, and sort of miss the Charger. Nothing else they've made in the last decade is even on my radar.

This.

The Ram won't go away. It'll be its own entity.

However, the Viper was a dinosaur before it was built, and they were proud of it. Now, it's a novelty car, because it really doesn't do any one thing WELL. People demand more of their toys.

The Charger was far more successful that I thought it would be, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The Viper's not a dinosaur, it's just brute. That's exactly why I love it: It does with straightforward engineering what everything else today does with tech. The viper grips better, handles better, accelerates better, shifts better, makes torque better than anything else within $100k of its pricetag. And it does it with no TCS, no no stability control, no AWD, no automated gearbox, didn't even have ABS until a couple years ago.

As for the Charger...I don't see why you'd be surprised.
It's attractive (arguable, but most seem to think so)
Offers a real manual transmission
Is rear drive
Offers a V8
Seats 4 adults comfortably (maybe even 5)
Is family-friendly
And it's pretty cheap

Granted, most people end up with the useless auto V6 model, but at least it's not as horrible as driving a Camry.

[Bubba1]

Whatever happened to the days when the Beetle was the must have cars for both guys and girls.

The reasons old Beetles/old Rabbits were the best selling cars in the world were very simple: they were well built, not complex, very cheap to buy, operate, repair and they were reliable. Incredible values. My wifes first two cars were an original beetle, and an original rabbit. Both cars would have run forever had they not succumbed to rust after many years.

Jesda pretty much nailed it as VW's management has completely lost touch with the American consumer's taste. Instead of making well made, simple cars for the masses, they've made their cars into pricey technological terrors (a current european infactuation, but not as much in this country) A loaded Passat is $40K!

As far as the driving factor, they are extremely nice cars to drive. They'll rank near the top when tested. IMO It's the long term ownership experience that keeps people from repeat buying them.


The Viper is both a brute and a dinosaur. The driving experience is reminiscent of old old Shelby cobra. neck snapping torque, massive brakes, great adhesion. But it's very primitive. Not to say it isn't a blast to drive. If you jump from a Viper to an Audi R8, trust me, the Viper will feel like a dinosaur.

[Jesda]

My dad had an original Rabbit. I remember hearing several horror stories, mostly electrical. I also remember seeing a picture from the 80s of him standing next to it as if it was something to be proud of. It was brownish/tan, just like the ugly-a** fashionable-back-then-never-again jacket he was wearing.

[Bubba1]

My dad had an original Rabbit. I remember hearing several horror stories, mostly electrical. I also remember seeing a picture from the 80s of him standing next to it as if it was something to be proud of. It was brownish/tan, just like the ugly-a** fashionable-back-then-never-again jacket he was wearing.

My wife had an orange 1975 4 door Rabbit when we married. A delightful little car. Always started, no rattles. It had a 4 speed,an AM/FM radio, black vinyl bucket seats, and a heater. No a/c, no fancy accessories. Very basic car.
We didn;t have any real problems with it. It got in the mid-high 20s around town, and over 30mpg on long highway trips. The only gripe I had with it was the floorpan below the drivers seat rotted out to the point I had to have a large steel plate riveted to the still solid steel nearby to keep the drivers seat from falling thru (cost me about $50). On the plus side, all you needed to do to dispose of any trash was to lift up the rubber floor matt. You could see the road. I ended up giving my wife my then recently purchased '80 Corolla liftback 5 speed, and I drove 'da Wabbit for a couple of years as I was afraid to get a phone call from her that her seat fell onto the ground. After almost 200K, I sold it for $400. Still had the original clutch and the motor never burned oil. It's a shame VW doesn't make them like that anymore.

[Mr1der]

the Viper ACR is still a straight up brute that'll lap quicker than cars twice it's price.

I think Chrysler or any of the US makers have the potential to be world class again...it's just gonna be a long, hard climb to get past the stigma American cars have right now...same place the Japanese were at 35 years ago.

[Jesda]

Although in Chrysler's case, perception and reality are the same.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

The Ram won't go away. It'll be its own entity.

However, the Viper was a dinosaur before it was built, and they were proud of it. Now, it's a novelty car, because it really doesn't do any one thing WELL. People demand more of their toys.

The Charger was far more successful that I thought it would be, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

The Ram is a brand that despite it's god awfulness in the 80's and early 90's has become one of the best trucks that you can buy on the market right now, particularly if you are in the market for a heavy duty work truck. The Cummins is best diesel engine you can get in a full size pickup/van (granted GM's Allison transmissions are the be all end all of HD transmissions). Yes the older models have horrendous paint and interior build quality, but the new ones are top notch and are a favorite of anyone who needs a pickup for any type of work or play.

The viper is just meh, was never a fan (same goes for the corvette). It's a fanboi car plain and simple. Yes they perform well in a track or motorsport atmosphere, but realistically they serve no purpose off the track other than to draw attention to yourself and compensate for a tiny pen15.

The Charger (minus the Police Cruiser's which is self explanatory) is as successful for a lot of the same reason's the 300 was, if you're a brotha in the ghetto you could pick one up for dirt cheap, slap some Dubb's, a bangin' system in it and tint the window and you have the ultimate ghetto cruiser. The ethnicity of the majority of all Charger (and 300) owners nationwide is much the same as that of the Nissan Maxima, that being of African American decent in a primarily poor area. No offense MOD, but I see more minorities driving Maxima's than I do whites. Dodge went out of it's way to sell the Charger (and the Magnum, and the 300) to minorities instead of middle class whites simply because while they are pseudo attractive and the SRT packages has some balls it is a travesty to it's name sake, and they knew this the second they released it. Every fan of the Charger was expecting a Hemi-powered 2 door coupe with a manual trans and enough power to lift the front wheels over a can, not a gutless 4 door saloon with a slushbox and absolutely no sex appeal to them. Granted the SRT8 model has some power but nothing like what it should. The 300 was neutered years ago, and again the SRT8 package gave it some balls again, but nothing like what the old school models had, plus it looks like a wannabe Bentley (though they do look damn good with a chopped top and frenched tails.) The Magnum was an awesome idea on paper, but once it was built it just wasn't a good idea anymore. Come to think of it I haven't seen on on the road in like 3 years, and they used to be everywhere. I wonder where they all went?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Every fan of the Charger was expecting a Hemi-powered 2 door coupe with a manual trans and enough power to lift the front wheels over a can, not a gutless 4 door saloon with a slushbox and absolutely no sex appeal to them.

No they weren't. No one ever expected anything else. It was always going to be a sedan. People might have been disappointed, but it's not like there was some mystery about what the "new Charger" was going to be. It was always going to be a sedan. And, anyway, this was hardly the first (or biggest) disappointment to bear the Charger name (coughMitsubishicough).

Granted the SRT8 model has some power but nothing like what it should.

You're insane. Are you telling me 425 FACTORY hp is not enough? How much "should" it have had then?!

[Mr1der]

it still doesn't do well to get it's own a** out of the way making 425 hp.

imagine how your LS would get down with that much.

[Jesda]

Marketing to black Americans is what saved Cadillac's a** after the depression. The small but growing population of successful blacks in America had trouble buying cars at some white-owned dealerships, so Cadillac intentionally went after them.

[Bubba1]

The viper is just meh, was never a fan (same goes for the corvette). It's a fanboi car plain and simple. Yes they perform well in a track or motorsport atmosphere, but realistically they serve no purpose off the track other than to draw attention to yourself and compensate for a tiny pen15.
?

Disagree, it's not a fanboi car. Sorry, 500 hp in a car that handles/brakes well is all bizness. You obviously haven;t driven a Viper. They not only perform "well", they'll pretty much embarrass most other cars completely stock. It;s a car that requires respect when on a race track. It's that great. The issue you appear to have is more the people that tend to buy them, which is no different than people that buy other expensive or ultra performance vehicles. Many of those that can afford them, can not (or will not) drive them the way the were designed to be driven, which is on a race track. That's an owner's perogative, not fanboi. Vipers are expensive to maintain/repair, so I can understand an owners reluctance to flog theirs on a race track, where the risk of problems and premature wear escalates.

[Bubba1]

[quote="Chaotic_Warlord"][The Charger (minus the Police Cruiser's which is self explanatory) is as successful for a lot of the same reason's the 300 was, if you're a brotha in the ghetto you could pick one up for dirt cheap, slap some Dubb's, a bangin' system in it and tint the window and you have the ultimate ghetto cruiser. The ethnicity of the majority of all Charger (and 300) owners nationwide is much the same as that of the Nissan Maxima, that being of African American decent in a primarily poor area. No offense MOD, but I see more minorities driving Maxima's than I do whites. Dodge went out of it's way to sell the Charger (and the Magnum, and the 300) to minorities instead of middle class whites simply because while they are pseudo attractive and the SRT packages has some balls it is a travesty to it's name sake, and they knew this the second they released it. Every fan of the Charger was expecting a Hemi-powered 2 door coupe with a manual trans and enough power to lift the front wheels over a can, not a gutless 4 door saloon with a slushbox and absolutely no sex appeal to them. Granted the SRT8 model has some power but nothing like what it should. The 300 was neutered years ago, and again the SRT8 package gave it some balls again, but nothing like what the old school models had, plus it looks like a wannabe Bentley (though they do look damn good with a chopped top and frenched tails.) The Magnum was an awesome idea on paper, but once it was built it just wasn't a good idea anymore. Come to think of it I haven't seen on on the road in like 3 years, and they used to be everywhere. I wonder where they all went?[/quote

Nice steroetyping, Warlord. So by your reasoning, GM nationally targeted the Cadillacs Escalade solely at African Americans because several of them in the Philadelphia area chose to customize theirs to the point that you noticed them? Can I have some of what your smoking?

The reason you don't see many Magnums on the road anymore is because very few people bought them and they've been discontinued. In 2008, Chryler sold under 7,000 of them in the US. Why it failed is acombination of factors. While it was a fun idea (muscle wagon), the timing was bad. It consumed a lot of gas during a period of high gas prices, big questions of Chrysler surviving at all made people hesitate, Chrysler's dismal reputation for reliability and build quality, bad depreciation, the car wasn't that roomy given it's size, handling was not very good for a car pitched as a performance car, you name it. It would not surprise me to see the Magnum become a minor collectible in the distant future, though probably not in my lifetime.

[HashiriyaS14]

I would never buy a Phaeton, but I want them to continue existing so I can look at them.
Kind of like supermodels. I don't want one, but I don't want them to go away.
The Phaeton serves no real purpose other than looking fine. Which is a justifiable in the $100k range.

The Phaeton can never succeed here, unless they break it off as a separate brand.

If something like the Phaeton would work, there would be no "Lexus LS460" here, it would be the Toyota Celsior. People probably wouldn't pay $70k for a Toyota Celsior either, and they certainly won't pay $100k for the Phaeton, at least not in any volume.


I don't mind the weirdo VW owner community. If the cars were reliable, I'd have probably bought a Golf/Rabbit by now. $15k for that little car with a manual and the great I-5 is a tremendous deal, but the reliability is dreadful.


Chrysler still has a product problem (sort of like VW, but more than just quality).

PRODUCT PRODUCT PRODUCT. Channel your inner Lutz. Ford and GM are doing okay because they both build cars people want to own. Chrysler doesn't build anything anyone wants to own and VW builds cars people want to own but are scared to buy.

[Bubba1]

I would never buy a Phaeton, but I want them to continue existing so I can look at them.
Kind of like supermodels. I don't want one, but I don't want them to go away.
The Phaeton serves no real purpose other than looking fine. Which is a justifiable in the $100k range.

The Phaeton can never succeed here, unless they break it off as a separate brand.

If something like the Phaeton would work, there would be no "Lexus LS460" here, it would be the Toyota Celsior. People probably wouldn't pay $70k for a Toyota Celsior either, and they certainly won't pay $100k for the Phaeton, at least not in any volume.


I don't mind the weirdo VW owner community. If the cars were reliable, I'd have probably bought a Golf/Rabbit by now. $15k for that little car with a manual and the great I-5 is a tremendous deal, but the reliability is dreadful.


Chrysler still has a product problem (sort of like VW, but more than just quality).

PRODUCT PRODUCT PRODUCT. Channel your inner Lutz. Ford and GM are doing okay because they both build cars people want to own. Chrysler doesn't build anything anyone wants to own and VW builds cars people want to own but are scared to buy.

I think the Phaeton is a good vehicle badly positioned by VW marketing. It's obviously way too expensive for VW's long time buyer demographic, and it looks way too much like a Passat. They could have sold more if they had simply put a steel body on the Audi A8L (instead of the expensive aluminum) and make it a base model Audi A8/A7.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Granted the SRT8 model has some power but nothing like what it should.

You're insane. Are you telling me 425 FACTORY hp is not enough? How much "should" it have had then?!

425HP from the factory is almost standard from the factory anymore, considering the C6, the R8, the newer Mustang GT, and the new Camaro's and Challengers in come close to that or all out exceed that in stock form and the special editions(Roush/Cobra/GT500 Mustangs, Z06/ZR1 Corvette etc...) have a ton more power than 425hp. The SRT8 Charger/300 should have closer to 500-550hp to make it a real powerhouse. The Charger was the MUST have muscle car back in the late 60's-early 70's, it came from the factory with enough HP and TQ to demolish most anything else in its era. They came with the option for a small block 318, a small block 360, a big block 383, a bigger block 426, and an ohmygod are you crazy bigger block 440. There was the 226 V6 option but really who bought those?, and they dominated on the NASCAR and NHRA circuits. Hell you could walk into the dealership and for slightly more coin you could get the a charger with the exact same specs as the NASCAR version (minus the cage) and drive it off the lot (granted you could do this with a lot of the muscle cars back then). When I first heard they were going to remake the Charger I was expecting them to produce a 2 door coupe with an aggressive Hemi engine and a manual 5 speed, seeing as at the time Dodge had absolutely nothing to offer as competition for the Mustangs, Camaro, and GTO. What we got instead was a neutered saloon with a V6 and an auto slushbox with the option to have a watered down 5.7L Hemi with the same auto slushbox. Meh.

As far as you guys thinking I'm stereotyping, I'm sorry but I'm calling it as I see it. I see more african americans driving Chargers (not just here in the greater Philly area) everywhere I've been, and I've been to a large percentage of the country. Same goes with the Maxima.

Chrysler Corp needs to just splinter like GM has and dump Chrysler altogether, Dodge can hold it's own with what they offer and Jeep will only die if they insist on developing vehicles that no one wants (like the Compass and the Patriot), Jeep needs to stick with what made them great, that being the Cherokee, the Wrangler, and the Grand Cherokee, and just improve on those, though the Liberty is a favorite of the womens so they can keep that one.