HYDROGEN BOOSTER...your thoughts?

[lightsout]

I apologize for any name calling that I did.1: What do I need to do to earn your integrity? I dont feel the need to try to please you by telling you that you are right when you are using bad information and spreading it as gospel.2:I have not continuously shot people down, thats not what I am on here to do, Im sorry I hurt your precious feelings.3:Who have I been "rude" to besides yourself and migsk8, and lets face it he deserves to be shot in the face.4:I dont answer questions, especially legit ones, and I have enormous respect for everyone that has posted something useful, I have enormous respect for everyone that warrents respect, you do not. Putting carbon fiber on a car is not repectable if thats the only thing your doing. You are a ricer, plain and simple. the only thing you have done is put some body crap on your maxima and you try to rip on me for not owning a nissan, at least I didnt ruin one.5: You can only use this argument once before you look like a complete idiot. I own a WRX, I build it, I work on it, I love it. I am a member of multiple Subaru forums, I joined Nico on the request of a freind, I am a Nissan enthusiast, I have worked on them for years, I just dont own one. I never disrespected any nissan owners for owning thier cars. But I have no respect for you because you are spouting mis-information and posting wild outragous claims and then back tracking and saying that your are just talking in theory, hey yea its a great theory but this has been discussed over and over and over.

I apologize for offending you but calling for my ban is just plain childish.

integrity isn't earned, it's owned.

bad information, what was that? My 'opinion' that it could be done?? BMW has a small fleet of 745hdi cars, but they run on liquid hydrogen and only get 350km per tank. i guess it's bearable. so, BMW and a few others did it.

if i wanted to spread the Gospel, i'd use a Bible. if you want more proof do your own research Speedy...you seem to be a smart guy, and i know you would be able to do some research about this topic if you reaaaaally wanted to, and maybe you have, which could be why you feel the way you do about it. it's like for you now maybe, but still new to people like me.

hurt 'my precious feelings' ...i sleep juuuust great.

ONCE AGAIN...why don't you read my profile biography, sheesh man. i don't have carbon fiber on my car ...you want sooo badly to label me a 'ricer' on NICO, but i am so far from one. i don't need the weight reduction, IT'S A MAXIMA , but do i think it looks nice? -> ...but that's all it's really good for on my car, which doesn't make it worth my time and money to buy until i've got oooodles of $ to burn. If i had money to burn, i'd get a hood and trunk just for fun.

i haven't backtracked anywhere

calling for your ban was funny...i thought. then you called me "hippie scum" ...that was entertaining

i'm glad that you are here, so lets get along huh?

if you're tired of talking about hydrogen or fuel cell crap, then don't post here...that simple. save yourself the headache. if you think it's a waste of your time, dont worry about it, it's not going to be solved anytime soon i'd bet....but it sure is entertaining to research it

a quick article, just for funhttp://www-formal.stanford.edu....html

lets stay on topic. HYDROGEN, HYDROGEN BOOSTERS, FUEL CELLS, and basically anything economical b/c GAS PRICES SUCK.
Modified by lightsout at 8:36 PM 6/3/2008

[JimmyMethod]

The energy required to crack H2O into H2 and an oxygen is currently greater than the energy it produces.

Semi-correct. The energy in the 2H20 to 2H2+02 reaction is the exact same as the 2H2+02 to 2H2O reaction, however, the inefficency in ALL reactions also generates some heat. So, yes, if you were to DRIVE the reaction (i.e. make H2 from H2O, you would lose some energy.

Hydrogen is a BATTERY (technically it's a 'cell', but the difference is mearly technical). It's a storage device. It doesn't generate any energy. The most obvious way of getting H2 is by electrolosis (this is the experiment most people run in their HS Chem classes). You put a negative and positive electrode in water, H2 comes out near the cathode (+ side) and O2 comes out near the anode (- side). The thing you need to realize, is that you are PUTTING ENERGY IN. You will put more energy in (by, in most cases, burning coal/natural gas in powerplants) than you can get back out.

However, people are looking into interesting ways to get hydrogen without using this method. The most promising way, is using algea that, in their photosynthesis process generate H2 and O2 from water and sunlight. It's essentially like using plant cell sized solar power plants to do electrolosis (though the chemical reaction is more complicated). The process of getting H2 from this on a large scale is still several years (10-ish+) away.

Now, when you HAVE this hydrogen, you have different things you can do with it. The basic way, which is the most inefficent, but also requires the least amount of change from the basic engine we use today: you can burn it. Hydrogen requires a different air-fuel ratio than gas. The ratio is about 90% H2 and 10% Air (I think. I don't remember if anything else in the atmo. but O2 will react, I'm a little drunk).This reaction also is VERY hot , like, melt some of your internals, hot. Not only is is a problem for your engine, it's indicative of how inefficent burning H2 is. (burning H2 is what the BMW hydrogen cars do)

The method that most people talk about when refering to 'hydrogen fuel cells' is sort of a reverse electrolosis. Instead of putting energy in, and separating H2 and O2, you take energy out, and put the H2 and O2 together to create H2O. This energy-out is what you use to power your electric motors that drive your car. This doesn't generate as much heat, and also requires no real moving parts (in the energy generation portion) so it requires no oil based lubricants as well.

I'll go further into what all this means tomorrow, right now... I'm tired. Night.

[Speedy7_7]

i'm glad that you are here, so lets get along huh?

Modified by lightsout at 8:36 PM 6/3/2008

Agreed!Oh and by the way, I own a nissan now. I just bought a 08 Versa for my wife.

[lightsout]

Agreed!Oh and by the way, I own a nissan now. I just bought a 08 Versa for my wife.

dude...i'm soo excited for her. get her on NICO, like NOW!!

wait, do we have a VERSA section?

[lightsout]

Semi-correct. The energy in the 2H20 to 2H2+02 reaction is the exact same as the 2H2+02 to 2H2O reaction, however, the inefficency in ALL reactions also generates some heat. So, yes, if you were to DRIVE the reaction (i.e. make H2 from H2O, you would lose some energy.

Hydrogen is a BATTERY (technically it's a 'cell', but the difference is mearly technical). It's a storage device. It doesn't generate any energy. The most obvious way of getting H2 is by electrolosis (this is the experiment most people run in their HS Chem classes). You put a negative and positive electrode in water, H2 comes out near the cathode (+ side) and O2 comes out near the anode (- side). The thing you need to realize, is that you are PUTTING ENERGY IN. You will put more energy in (by, in most cases, burning coal/natural gas in powerplants) than you can get back out.

However, people are looking into interesting ways to get hydrogen without using this method. The most promising way, is using algea that, in their photosynthesis process generate H2 and O2 from water and sunlight. It's essentially like using plant cell sized solar power plants to do electrolosis (though the chemical reaction is more complicated). The process of getting H2 from this on a large scale is still several years (10-ish+) away.

Now, when you HAVE this hydrogen, you have different things you can do with it. The basic way, which is the most inefficent, but also requires the least amount of change from the basic engine we use today: you can burn it. Hydrogen requires a different air-fuel ratio than gas. The ratio is about 90% H2 and 10% Air (I think. I don't remember if anything else in the atmo. but O2 will react, I'm a little drunk).This reaction also is VERY hot , like, melt some of your internals, hot. Not only is is a problem for your engine, it's indicative of how inefficent burning H2 is. (burning H2 is what the BMW hydrogen cars do)

The method that most people talk about when refering to 'hydrogen fuel cells' is sort of a reverse electrolosis. Instead of putting energy in, and separating H2 and O2, you take energy out, and put the H2 and O2 together to create H2O. This energy-out is what you use to power your electric motors that drive your car. This doesn't generate as much heat, and also requires no real moving parts (in the energy generation portion) so it requires no oil based lubricants as well.

I'll go further into what all this means tomorrow, right now... I'm tired. Night.

i'm soaking up AAAALLLLL the information, and LOVING it

[Red coupe]

I still wanna know what voltage is used in these water tanks....

Some one can check my math here, it was just quick calculations...but using electrolysis to gather hydrogen gas on the go seems REALLY REALLY far fetched..

At 12 volts the hydrogen is going to be trickling out, and you are not gonna get enough to make any noticeable difference, the volume of gas produced will be rather negligible in comparison with the volume of air/fuel mixture drawn into a running engine. At 3k rpm each cylinder of the engine fills and empties 1500 times in one minute, in a KA (2.4L X 1500) X 0.90 (assuming a 90% volumetric efficiency, kinda pulled that number out of my ***) to give you three thousand two hundred and forty liters of gas going through the engine in a single minute.... Do you know how much electrical energy it takes to produce enough hydrogen in a minute to even represent a significant portion of that volume? Even if you are only running 20% hydrogen you have to produce 648 liters of H2 per minute.... It takes about 485 ml of water to produce that volume

That means two things.... one you have to carry slightly over one pount of water for every minute you plan to drive, AND you have to have a current high enough to split a almost half a liter of water a minute! that is huge man.With 12 volts its honestly gonna be minutes to hours before you use up any appreciable amount of water.

[lightsout]

sometimes i wish i were Amish, and had a horse and buggy...lol. life seems simpler there. ....but the religion is super strict...so that won't work.

...NOT, NO WAY, NO HOW
Modified by lightsout at 6:32 PM 6/5/2008

[audtatious]

Any updates on this or did everyone bail out?

Tech discussions rule.

[gwoods]

lightsout,

Time and money would be better spent on making your gasoline engine burn gasoline more efficently

If you want to add water to your motor add a water/meth injection kit.

http://www.snowperformance.net/

Doesn't Honda have a Hydrogen Accord you can lease in Cali?

I saw a news story on TV about a guy with a Chevy truck who claimed 40+mpg with a couple mason jars full of water under the hood with copper coils in them. The only way I could see this being a possible gain is if the Hydrogen split can be done with the "extra" electricity your alternator is producing already

Edited to add article on Snow's website

http://www.snowperformance.net...rk=65

[gwoods]

I'd own a Nissan if they made a decent car that fit my requirements in the past 3 decades. They haven't

PLEASE NO ONE ASK WHAT HIS "REQUIREMENTS" ARE!

[MinisterofDOOM]

Doesn't Honda have a Hydrogen ACcord you can lease in Cali?

Honda makes a Hydrogen car, and it can be leased, but it's not something anyone can lease. It's actually not an Accord, but an entirely unique model called the Clarity. They're all spoken for, and there aren't many. As I understand, Honda hand-picked many of the lesees for their ability to promote the car well (read: big Hollywood names) which is understandable. A true full-scale-production hydrogen-electric Honda is still around 10 years off.

Honda's hydrogen-electic car is an entirely different thing than the hydrogen-powered or "-boosted" internal combustion cars, though. It uses hydrogen in place of a battery to power an electric motor.

[marlin29311]

"A pure stoichiometric mixture is most easily obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it. (See Electrolysis of water:Efficiency)."

I'm no science major, but doesn't this violate the conservation of energy theory?

Also, for anyone citing Wikipedia, please stop. Wikipedia is not a citable source.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The law of conservation of energy is crap. CERN is well on their way toward proving that.

[stickshifta]

I apologize for any name calling that I did. 1: What do I need to do to earn your integrity? I dont feel the need to try to please you by telling you that you are right when you are using bad information and spreading it as gospel.2:I have not continuously shot people down, thats not what I am on here to do, Im sorry I hurt your precious feelings.3:Who have I been "rude" to besides yourself and migsk8, and lets face it he deserves to be shot in the face.4:I dont answer questions, especially legit ones, and I have enormous respect for everyone that has posted something useful, I have enormous respect for everyone that warrents respect, you do not. Putting carbon fiber on a car is not repectable if thats the only thing your doing. You are a ricer, plain and simple. the only thing you have done is put some body crap on your maxima and you try to rip on me for not owning a nissan, at least I didnt ruin one.5: You can only use this argument once before you look like a complete idiot. I own a WRX, I build it, I work on it, I love it. I am a member of multiple Subaru forums, I joined Nico on the request of a freind, I am a Nissan enthusiast, I have worked on them for years, I just dont own one. I never disrespected any nissan owners for owning thier cars. But I have no respect for you because you are spouting mis-information and posting wild outragous claims and then back tracking and saying that your are just talking in theory, hey yea its a great theory but this has been discussed over and over and over.

I apologize for offending you but calling for my ban is just plain childish.

And to Dattebayo: I really like this idea, It would take a ton of energy but splitting a liquid molecule with its resonant frequency would be very cool.

dude why you even acknowledging his comments...just let him make a threadfool of himself...i come to learn some new stuff and all i get it a bunch of jerry springer..wtf? obviously a wrx whooped him on the streets and his love for big words are evident..

just chill..please guys there are ppl who actually join these things to get help. this is making the whole site look bad and i been a member for 15 minutes!

lightsout.. i think u need to dim the lights a bit..this was ridiculous.

[menassy]

Truly truly truly the only way to make electrolysis of water more efficient is by using some kind of catalyst.

the use of a catalyst will essentially decrease the OVER POTENTIAL or ACTIVATION ENERGY.

A catalyst IS used in the HHO generators for combustion engines.

[Red coupe]

I'm no science major, but doesn't this violate the conservation of energy theory?

Also, for anyone citing Wikipedia, please stop. Wikipedia is not a citable source.

Naw, the whole conservation of energy thing is based on theoretical conditions and assumes perfect efficiency.

Like where a pendulum should repeatedly convert potential energy to kinetic energy then back, but in reality it will slow over time.

The conservation on energy would say that the energy is the same in either direction, but because no real processes is 100% efficient some energy is lost at every step along the way.

A catalyst IS used in the HHO generators for combustion engines.

what is used as a catalysis?