HYDROGEN BOOSTER...your thoughts?

[lightsout]

C-Kwik, you're AWESOME!!

more great reading for those of us who want to learn!!

[Urabus GodofTraction]

The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it. (See Electrolysis of water:Efficiency)."

Sounds like C-Kwik just pwnt this thread.

[lightsout]

maybe...maybe not.

i still would like to explore the possibilities of hydrogen & fuel cell cars...it's fun!

[lightsout]

sweet finds!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAwvOyB3rbM

electric car, looks awesome!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated
Modified by lightsout at 3:10 AM 5/30/2008

[Speedy7_7]

Hippie scum

[lightsout]

you're boring and pathetic

go and find yourself a WRX site, and see how they treat you there...go on now, shew, you're attracting flies.

ADMIN, please Speedy7_7 out of NICO, and from site indefinately...it would do us all a great deal of good to have him gone.

keep NICO positive by eliminating the bad apples, please.

[maxhopper]

Is it not possible to disagree with someone without resorting to childish name calling? Please keep the thread on topic at hand.

[Dattebayo]

I had an idea t he other day about this, we will see if it is over anyone's head or not...

Have you ever seen the commercial where the lady sings and the frequency of her voice breaks the wine glass?

Well imagine this for a second:All physical matter has a certain resonance frequency with respect to certain types of energy that can alter the form that matter is in. Electrons are no exception to this rule and neither is water.

So just as the glass breaks when the proper frequency of sound energy is applied to it, wouldn't an electric current tuned to water's specific frequency break accordingly?

In the glass' case, the sound energy has little or no effect on its structure normally, but as soon as you turn the frequency to the correct wavelength, POW goes the wine glass.

Electric current already has an effect on water even in it's un-tuned state, so what's to say that tuning it to the correct frequency won't allow the splitting reaction to happen using less energy?

[lightsout]

Is it not possible to disagree with someone without resorting to childish name calling? Please keep the thread on topic at hand.

thank you Maxhopper97!

[Dattebayo]

Any thoughts on my ideas? Or is it going to be ignored completely...

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Any thoughts on my ideas? Or is it going to be ignored completely...

Dumb idea. Even if your resonance frequency theory held true, it takes a ton more energy to make happen than you'll get out.

Oh, and lightsout, you want to ban Speedy7_7 because he called you a name? Awwwwww, poor thing!

This thread fails.

[Dattebayo]

Dumb idea. Even if your resonance frequency theory held true, it takes a ton more energy to make happen than you'll get out..

I know its you, but instead of just spitting out the dogma of what scientists are saying today, why don't you offer up some other proof for why you think its a dumb idea?

My ideas on frequency resonance should help you understand how you can cut the amount of power used in electrolysis down inversely. If you ever respond, I'll find some charts on how resonance effects stuff like concrete in demolition, allowing them to bring a building down with 1/10th the energy normally needed by using shaped charges.

See the problem with the way people think is that when you fire energy at something, that they believe there is only one way to do it.

[lightsout]

ha...where is your NISSAN hiding Charlieo?

[lightsout]

Dumb idea. Even if your resonance frequency theory held true, it takes a ton more energy to make happen than you'll get out.

Oh, and lightsout, you want to ban Speedy7_7 because he called you a name? Awwwwww, poor thing!

This thread fails.

no...i believe he should go b/c #1 he has no integrity as a respectful member#2 he has not contributed AT ALL, but instead shoots people down for ideas.#3 he has been sooo rude to many of the NICO members#4 he has no respect for anyone else that has ideas or legit questions.#5 HE DRIVES A WRX

I had an idea t he other day about this, we will see if it is over anyone's head or not...

Have you ever seen the commercial where the lady sings and the frequency of her voice breaks the wine glass?

Well imagine this for a second:All physical matter has a certain resonance frequency with respect to certain types of energy that can alter the form that matter is in. Electrons are no exception to this rule and neither is water.

So just as the glass breaks when the proper frequency of sound energy is applied to it, wouldn't an electric current tuned to water's specific frequency break accordingly?

In the glass' case, the sound energy has little or no effect on its structure normally, but as soon as you turn the frequency to the correct wavelength, POW goes the wine glass.

Electric current already has an effect on water even in it's un-tuned state, so what's to say that tuning it to the correct frequency won't allow the splitting reaction to happen using less energy?

i understand what you are saying, i think, but i don't understand how sound waves are going to split a liquid molecule. Many of us understand the crystal glass, and the concrete method, but they are both solids. Do you think it would be different for a liquid

that idea some more i could see that happening

[Dattebayo]

i understand what you are saying, i think, but i don't understand how sound waves are going to split a liquid molecule. Many of us understand the crystal glass, and the concrete method, but they are both solids. Do you think it would be different for a liquid

Concrete is not a solid for many, many years until it has set completely, until then it is a suspension in a liquid, and glass is a liquid. A very very slow moving liquid, but nevertheless it is.

Also, I was not suggesting that we use sound waves to split water, but rather I was using the example of sound waves on glass... You see, energy travels in waves, and there are many types of energy and there are different frequencies and wavelengths that these energies can be tuned to... Sound just happens to be one form of energy, electric current is another.

[lightsout]

me silly

i understand what you are saying now :-)

[Urabus GodofTraction]

ha...where is your NISSAN hiding Charlieo?

I've said it a dozen times now...

NICO: Nissan Infiniti Car Owners

50% ain't bad!

I'd own a Nissan if they made a decent car that fit my requirements in the past 3 decades. They haven't.

I know its you, but instead of just spitting out the dogma of what scientists are saying today, why don't you offer up some other proof for why you think its a dumb idea?

My ideas on frequency resonance should help you understand how you can cut the amount of power used in electrolysis down inversely. If you ever respond, I'll find some charts on how resonance effects stuff like concrete in demolition, allowing them to bring a building down with 1/10th the energy normally needed by using shaped charges.

See the problem with the way people think is that when you fire energy at something, that they believe there is only one way to do it.

It's all about energy required. Demo teams use resonance because concrete is flexible to a point, then it's very, very brittle. It's not messing with the forces such that hold water together.

Also, I LOVE the term "dogma" applied to the laws of physics. Facts, by nature, aren't dogma. Dogma revolves around belief. One doesn't NEED to believe in gravity, it's there.

[lightsout]

that's clever Charlieo!

[Speedy7_7]

no...i believe he should go b/c #1 he has no integrity as a respectful member#2 he has not contributed AT ALL, but instead shoots people down for ideas.#3 he has been sooo rude to many of the NICO members#4 he has no respect for anyone else that has ideas or legit questions.#5 HE DRIVES A WRX

i understand what you are saying, i think, but i don't understand how sound waves are going to split a liquid molecule. Many of us understand the crystal glass, and the concrete method, but they are both solids. Do you think it would be different for a liquid

that idea some more i could see that happening

I apologize for any name calling that I did. 1: What do I need to do to earn your integrity? I dont feel the need to try to please you by telling you that you are right when you are using bad information and spreading it as gospel.2:I have not continuously shot people down, thats not what I am on here to do, Im sorry I hurt your precious feelings.3:Who have I been "rude" to besides yourself and migsk8, and lets face it he deserves to be shot in the face.4:I dont answer questions, especially legit ones, and I have enormous respect for everyone that has posted something useful, I have enormous respect for everyone that warrents respect, you do not. Putting carbon fiber on a car is not repectable if thats the only thing your doing. You are a ricer, plain and simple. the only thing you have done is put some body crap on your maxima and you try to rip on me for not owning a nissan, at least I didnt ruin one.5: You can only use this argument once before you look like a complete idiot. I own a WRX, I build it, I work on it, I love it. I am a member of multiple Subaru forums, I joined Nico on the request of a freind, I am a Nissan enthusiast, I have worked on them for years, I just dont own one. I never disrespected any nissan owners for owning thier cars. But I have no respect for you because you are spouting mis-information and posting wild outragous claims and then back tracking and saying that your are just talking in theory, hey yea its a great theory but this has been discussed over and over and over.

I apologize for offending you but calling for my ban is just plain childish.

And to Dattebayo: I really like this idea, It would take a ton of energy but splitting a liquid molecule with its resonant frequency would be very cool.

[C-Kwik]

A DC current does not travel in waves AFAIK. AC maybe, but the wave you see when measuring an AC current is simply the measure of a current with respect to "volume" and direction. Sound and light actually travel in waveforms.

[Speedy7_7]

I think he is proposing sound or light itself to split the molecules. Here is some info on the frequency of water.http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.htmlI do beleive there is a infra red frequency that can do it also.

A microwave oven runs at the correct frequency to split water but it requires alot more power than a microwave can put out.

[Dattebayo]

Also, I LOVE the term "dogma" applied to the laws of physics. Facts, by nature, aren't dogma. Dogma revolves around belief. One doesn't NEED to believe in gravity, it's there.

Funny that you picked Gravity of all forces, since it isn't fully understood what actually causes gravity yet

I used the term "dogma" because you are simply repeating what others have told you. These are just ideas I have, and you simply shoot them for being incorrect with your interpreted understanding of how the universe runs. Physics DOES NOT determine that any of these theories are incorrect, silly! Go check it out...

Also:

A DC current does not travel in waves AFAIK. AC maybe, but the wave you see when measuring an AC current is simply the measure of a current with respect to "volume" and direction. Sound and light actually travel in waveforms.

Electrons in a current do have a waveform, roughly like that of sound or light, but not in as pure of a definition as those forms of energy since it's required mediums are more restrictive. I know this because certain performers that let electricity pass through their body use devices to tune the flow so that they will not kill themselves, have a look at Google about it.

[Speedy7_7]

Funny that you picked Gravity of all forces, since it isn't fully understood what actually causes gravity yet

I used the term "dogma" because you are simply repeating what others have told you. These are just ideas I have, and you simply shoot them for being incorrect with your interpreted understanding of how the universe runs. Physics DOES NOT determine that any of these theories are incorrect, silly! Go check it out...

Also:

.

I have to give it to charleo on this one, you have a very strange way of looking at the world.

[Dattebayo]

you have a very strange way of looking at the world.

I'm relieved. Having a different understanding is what I am all about Guys like that end up changing history, you know...

[Speedy7_7]

I'm relieved. Having a different understanding is what I am all about Guys like that end up changing history, you know...

HAHAHA, yea your right about that one. Gravity still exsists though.

And stan meyers is a really smart guy, that video looked like it was from the eighties. If it really worked as well as everyone says, wouldnt we all be using them. looking at this whole hydrogen car thing in this way is like looking at weight loss pills, if they are actually a miracle cure there would be no fat people. And to Lightsout, I read most of the liks you posted to try to understand where you are coming from, the closest to the truth I think I have found is that an SUV gets 2 MPG better. where as the other cars they placed it on (sherrifs) did nothing. I would also like to know what doing this to a vehicle in the long run will do. The change in A/F ratios could very easily blow the car up. The closest thing I can think is that no matter the seperation between the atoms, there may be a placebo effect on the vehicle due to the injection of water into the intake system.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Funny that you picked Gravity of all forces, since it isn't fully understood what actually causes gravity yet

Lack of understanding doesn't change the fact that it works. Or doesn't work, in this thread's case.

[gammer_ghn]

It will not be in water form when it enters your intake, it will simply be its orginal atoms separate and when it burns it creates very little ammount of water which at the temperatures that its in turns into steam so it will not do any harm if not good, by having the steam create a cooling effect on our engine. I am working on a rig to make one and connect it to a electricity generator to make power and eliminate our houses electricity bill, It will work since the 1 hp engine only uses 1gallon of fuel every hour and a half. The AFR "Air Fuel Ratio" is controlled by a little chip and what that does is lean out the fuel since the Oxygen level goes up due to the Hydrogen being burnt, that makes your o2 sensors add more fuel to have all of it burned. Ive read somewhere a long time ago that a car's ECU is set to a point that it uses fuel to boundary charts that oil company's allow. As far as that theory goes i beleave it since many cars are not that efficient. If you read in the history books you will see that alongside steam hydrogen was one of the first fuel's to be considered and i think oil won over hydrogen for the same reason as Edison and Nikola Tesla "CAPITAL". So instead of arguing here instead of waisting peoples time and post horing by starting arguments just leave and let the people that are interested take care of these issues, we would love to sell you a working and proven version when we are done and are already benefitting from these facts. NUFF SAID.

[C-Kwik]

Electrons in a current do have a waveform, roughly like that of sound or light, but not in as pure of a definition as those forms of energy since it's required mediums are more restrictive. I know this because certain performers that let electricity pass through their body use devices to tune the flow so that they will not kill themselves, have a look at Google about it.

I'll have to ask you to supply a link. I came up short in a search on the topic.

[gordonliu]

Any thoughts on my ideas? Or is it going to be ignored completely...

let me mention one thing: when discussing Electrolytically cracking water, you are discussing the unit hydrogen per unit energy ratio or cost. I ASSUME that you are trying to suggest this method as a method of efficiently cracking water.

I will also say that your general concept of somehow identifying a parameter that can be varied in such a way to find its optimum level is kind of obvious and has been rigorously defined mathematically since before the turn of the 20th century. (calculus of variations--> constrained optimization)

With that being said, no: varying the potential (voltage) or the current as a function of time in a DC circuit like this will not, in general, benefit you. there may be systems that benefit from this type of behavior, but that is usually because doing this will somehow prevent destruction of electrodes and will reduce costs in other ways, not related to the actual chemical reaction.

First let me mention that you need to supply a minimum amount of energy in order for this reaction to happen. there is no way to avoid this. you absolutely need to supply AT MINIMUM the amount of energy that the products and reactants differ by, and AT MINIMUM the activation energy required for the reaction to proceed

by varying the voltage you would be varying the amount of energy you apply to the system. think about it as you would be applying energy like this:

not enough for rxn-->enough for rxn--->not enough---> enough--->not enough--->etc

by varying the current, and keeping the potential constant, you will simply be varying the amount of hydrogen that is produced. the current is a measure of charge per unit time. each specific Echem reaction requires a certain number of electrons in order to take place.

by varying the current you will simply be doing something like:

X amount of hydrogen produced---> (X-Y) amount of hydren produced ----> X amount produced----> (X-Y) produced.

Truly truly truly the only way to make electrolysis of water more efficient is by using some kind of catalyst.

the use of a catalyst will essentially decrease the OVER POTENTIAL or ACTIVATION ENERGY.

no matter what, however:

O2+H2 are higher in energy than H2O and you simply cannot avoid that fact

[gordonliu]

I think he is proposing sound or light itself to split the molecules. Here is some info on the frequency of water.http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.htmlI do beleive there is a infra red frequency that can do it also.

A microwave oven runs at the correct frequency to split water but it requires alot more power than a microwave can put out.

Every absorption listed on that page is in the IR. IR does not have enough energy to break bonds. n fact, its VERY difficult to highly vibrationally excite any molecule, but thats another story. Water essentially does not absorb visible light, duh its clear. This is highly advantageous to the development of life. If water did absorb visible light, then early molecules would immediately be destroyed by reaction with excited water molecules. The fact that this is not the case makes water an excellent solvent for life. (the wavelength at peak intensity from the sun is green light)

Electrons in a current do have a waveform, roughly like that of sound or light, but not in as pure of a definition as those forms of energy since it's required mediums are more restrictive. I know this because certain performers that let electricity pass through their body use devices to tune the flow so that they will not kill themselves, have a look at Google about it.

do you mean that the electrons that are responsible for current in a conductor are represented by a waveFUNCTION? If that is what you mean, then there is a bit of confusion going on here. What do you mean by "electrons in a current have a waveform?"