Humanitarian effort or Invasion?

[OriginalWheelman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

Russian tanks have entered Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, says Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili.

Georgia has been fighting separatists with ties to Russia in order to regain control of the province, which has had de facto independence since the 1990s.

Russian troops in the South Ossetian capital said their artillery had begun firing at Georgian forces, Russian news agencies reported.

Russia's president earlier promised to defend his citizens in South Ossetia.

Moscow's defence ministry said more than 10 of its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia had been killed and 30 wounded in the Georgian offensive. At least 15 civilians are also reported dead.

'Clear intrusion'

Amid international calls for restraint, Georgia's president said 150 Russian tanks and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia.

He told CNN: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory."

Mr Saakashvili, who has called on reservists to sign up for duty, said: "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory.

"We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight," Reuters new agency quoted him as saying.

Later, Moscow's foreign ministry told media that Russian tanks had reached the northern outskirts of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.Russia denied any of its fighters had entered its neighbour's airspace.

Moscow's defence ministry said reinforcements for Russian peacekeepers had been sent to South Ossetia "to help end bloodshed".

Amid reports of Russian deaths, President Dmitry Medvedev said: "I must protect the life and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are," Interfax news agency reported.

"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished. Those responsible will receive a deserved punishment."

'Ethnic cleansing'

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow was receiving reports that villages in South Ossetia were being ethnically cleansed.

Mr Lavrov added in televised remarks: "The number of refugees is growing. A humanitarian crisis is looming."

Russia said it would cut all air links with Georgia from midnight on Friday.

Meanwhile Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.

Witnesses said the regional capital was devastated.

Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, told AP news agency: "I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars. It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged."

[Cold_Zero]

We were talking about this today at work. My buddy got worked up over this 'Invasion.' I am not particularly over concerned about this build up. Is the Russian Federation flexing it muscle in Ossetia? Probably. Is the President of Georgia flexing his Nationalistic muscle to win votes? You bet you. Same kind of thing is going on in Ukraine with Viktor Yushchenko trying to work with the Patriarch of Constantinople to establish an Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Instead of working with his Patriarch (of Moscow) Alexy II's, who has jurisdiction over Ukraine, he has petitioned the Ecumenical Patriarch to grant the country a National Church. This has divided Ukrainians deeply.Bud

[96Qowner]

Invasion.

I heard former Ambassador Holbrooke on TV this morning. He's been writing papers and speaking on this issue for the past couple years. He said he knew it was coming and that the Russians timed it for the start of the Olympics, when it's presumed everyone will want to behave. Putin hopes to have Georgia subdued quickly, a fait accompoli. Then he will overthrow their very pro-USA, pro-democracy President.

He said NATO and the USA have to move quickly or it's a done deal. Look where Georgia sits, right above Turkey and Armenia and Azerbeijan, which in turn border the Kurdish areas of Iran and Iraq. Not a good place to have the Russians entrenched. Lots of rebellion and unrest in that region, all of which they could exploit.

TBILISI, Georgia -- While the United States is otherwise preoccupied, this small former Soviet republic has become the stage for a blatant effort at regime change, Russian-style. Vladimir Putin is going all out to undermine and get rid of Georgia's young, pro-American, pro-democracy president, Mikheil Saakashvili. Putin is assuming that the United States, overwhelmed by Iraq and needing Moscow's support on North Korea and Iran, will not make Georgia a "red-line" issue and that the European Union, fearful of endangering energy supplies from Russia, will similarly play it down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

[Cold_Zero]

Invasion.

He said NATO and the USA have to move quickly or it's a done deal. Look where Georgia sits, right above Turkey and Armenia and Azerbeijan, which in turn border the Kurdish areas of Iran and Iraq. Not a good place to have the Russians entrenched. Lots of rebellion and unrest in that region, all of which they could exploit.

Why is it? And someone please correct me if I am way off that the American Media and certain American Politicians feel the need to advance this old Cold War mentality as if Russia is our enemy? "Not a good place to have teh Russians entrenched?" What kind of bull **** is this? Oh No. It's far better to have Turkey invading northern Iraq and bombing Kurdish villages. Give me a break.

[96Qowner]

Totalitarianism certainly has its advantages. Russia is/was a more peaceful, law-abiding place when it's ruled by a dictatorship. So was Iraq.

Should we bother defending Democracies like Georgia and Turkey?

[Cold_Zero]

No offense man, my comments (more of frustrations) were not geared towards you.

I will NOT defend the modern state of Turkey. I have said it before in this forum, if it were up to me, I would tell Turkey they cross the border into Iraq to hit the Kurds, the bombers start coming out of Whiteman AFB heading for Ankara. So it's a damn good thing I aint the Commander in Chief. I guess I have a different perspective about the Russian Federation. I dont believe all the Spin that the US Media puts on Russia. They are not poor, destitute and weak like they are portrayed in our media. I would much rather work with Russia to solidify a good ally for the United States, rather than alienate them. Instead the US entices the Baltic States, Ukraine, Poland and the Caucasus States to join NATO. Even though they know how upset that makes Russia.

And Holbrooke? That bastard I am sure help perpetrate the invasion of Kosovo under the Klinton Regime. Everyone talks about Bush invading Iraq on false pretenses. How about Kosovo? I think General Wesley Clark should be tried on war crimes by the UN for overseeing the invasion of Kosovo.Lets see:1. Kosovo has been a part of the Kingdom/Republic of Serbia for over 120 years. 2. The West backs the KLA, a Separatist terrorlst ORGANIZATION who incites the population to succeed from the Republic of Serbia. 3. When Serbia forces crack down on said terrorlst organization, NATO commences with a bombing campaign of Serbia and bombs the **** out of the Republic.4. NATO invades Kosovo and causes a massive displacement of people.5. UN occupies Kosovo.6. When Kosovo declares its independence the West is the first to recognize their independence. 7. When hooligan Serbs firebomb and storm our Embassy in Belgrade, we scratch our head and wonder why the Serbs hate the US.

If Russia incited a terrorlst Separatist Organization in Texas to force Texas to secede from the United States and when the United States cracked down on said group, the Russians bombed the **** out of Washington DC, would you be pissed?

[96Qowner]

From what I remember of your other posts, you know a heck of a lot more about these tensions than I do.

But I was under the impression that the Kurds in Turkey have been agitating for a separate State for decades, something Turkey has refused time and again. If it were me, I'd redraw the borders to create an independent Kurdistan, like there always should have been.

But I can also understand how Turkey won't/can't allow that.

And I'm sensitive to your example - thought the very same thing this morning as I watched the news. So, what if Mexico has a Socialist revolution like Venezuela, and starts agitating at the border, etc. Shouldn't we use force on them?

But It's hard to be an American and be on Russia's side. Russia does not have our best interests in mind.

And, no worries, was no offense taken.

[Cold_Zero]

From what I remember of your other posts, you know a heck of a lot more about these tensions than I do.

But I was under the impression that the Kurds in Turkey have been agitating for a separate State for decades, something Turkey has refused time and again. If it were me, I'd redraw the borders to create an independent Kurdistan, like there always should have been.

But I can also understand how Turkey won't/can't allow that.

And I'm sensitive to your example - thought the very same thing this morning as I watched the news. So, what if Mexico has a Socialist revolution like Venezuela, and starts agitating at the border, etc. Shouldn't we use force on them?

But It's hard to be an American and be on Russia's side. Russia does not have our best interests in mind.

And, no worries, was no offense taken.

I really wish that Turkey would leave the Kurds alone in Eastern Turkey and now in Iraq. There have been transgressions on both side with the PKK (Kurds), the Turkish Military and the Turkish Government. No one is really innocent in this conflict. It would be great for all the players involved to work on a solution the Kurdish problem.

The Mexican Government already condones and even helps Mexicans to sneak across our border. An act that I have viewed as being a gesture of ill will when it comes to being good neighbors. Should we invade Northern Mexico and bomb the **** out of Mexico City? Nah… I think we can work to secure the border, work with the Mexican Government to let them know how important it is to us that they respect our Sovereignty and maybe even send back the illegals that are already here in the US. And if we need more guest workers to get the work done in the United States then let’s expand the Guest Worker Program to compensate for that. Why should we allow Americans to take advantage of illegals in our country and pay them a pittance for their work by defending illegal immigration when saying, “Well if they don’t come to do the jobs that American’s won’t do, then no one will.”

[AZhitman]

Even if Turkey was a democracy that loved America and adopted out national anthem, I'd still call for relocating their people, leveling the entire country, and building a permanent US military base there.

Some will squawk, and I'll ignore it.

[Cold_Zero]

Back to Ossetia,Make no mistake the Western meddling in the Caucasus is all about oil and chipping anyway at Russia's sphere of influence in the region. Think of Russia as one big spicket that can be turned on and off to produce massive amounts of money. Even if Caucasus countries like Armenia and Georgia do not produce oil they still ship it to the west via pipelines because these countries provide a close port to the Black Sea. The countries and regions bordering the Caspian Sea, mainly Azerbaijan produce massive amounts oil and the West has been trying to win them over to their sphere of influence. Don't believe me? In the Nagorno-Karabakh War after Armenian beat Azeri forces (even though being backed by oil money and Middle Eastern support) to a pulp and took more than the Armenian pockets of Nagorno, a call for a ceasefire was issued from the West (Europe). I was ashamed that the West (including the USA) supported Azerbaijan and pushed for peace so that oil production would resume. The reason why the Armenians beat Azerbaijan even though the Azeris had a cash and support advantage was because the Armenian holds a big rich tradition of great Generals that came out of the Soviet Union's Army.

One of the reasons why Ukraine is such an issue right now. I believe Germany has built a pipeline in Ukraine to ship oil west to Europe. I firmly believe this is the reason why we are seeing a rise Ukrainian nationalism, the government trying to push away from Russia's sphere of influence and President Viktor Yushchenko attempting to establish a National Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Even though the majority of Ukrainians are Russia Orthodox and the entire country is under jurisdiction of Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow. Let you in on a little bit of information. In Eastern Orthodoxy, because of the doctrine of Apostolic Succession you just don't establish your own national church with its own autocephalous (which basically means that the Patriarch is not subordinate to the Authority of any other Bishop) Patriarch. Well you can but it will have no credibility. It takes the backing of the Ecumenical Patriarch (Constantinople) and the other Patriarchs to sign off on the formation of the National Church and the autocephalous Bishop. Ukraine's National Church is an Autonomous church under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. The US attempted to have its own National Church formalized in the Orthodox Church in America, but those attempts failed. Technically speaking I believe that North America is under the jurisdiction of Russia because of Alaska and the West Coast being settled by Russian Immigrants.

Look guys this has been happening in the Baltics, the Caucasus, Ukraine, Moldova (this is more of a power play between Romania and Moscow), we here in the US are too blind to see it. Sure we listen to the Georgia President that claims that 100k civilians have died. The body count? 2,000. Make no mistake there is a lot of spin in this region.bud

[Soravia]

If president Bush wasn't so haste on his missile defence shield, Russians would not be doing this much.

He should have made Iran make a move before putting the missile shield on the table. It's not that difficult of a strategy. Just put a bit of pressure on Iran at the right spot so that they start firing their missiles, intercept them and THEN start on the missile shield.

[Cold_Zero]

Regarding Iran. Now that we have good relations with Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, why not park batteries of THAADs along the Iranian border.bud

[Soravia]

You mean Patriot? Personally I support putting up upgraded version of Northrop Grumam's anti-artillery laser on a satellite in Regan's Star War style.

They should have one of those in the 'Green Zone' too.

[Marenta]

Regarding Iran. Now that we have good relations with Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, why not park batteries of THAADs along the Iranian border.

Whoa there little buddy. We have "good relations" with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan?

So, we didn't just hostilely take over Iraq, nor are we trying to set up a pretend government that's going to just turn around and become very corrupt and end up stabbing us in the back like every other single government we help set up. Okay, good.

So, we backed up the militias that helped put the Taliban in power, because we hated the Russians so god damned much during the CW that we are now fighting ghosts in some ***-hat sand trap hilly *** terrain and we're never going to win the war because they're raping children so they can breed like bunnies. Okay, good.

And, we are so friendly with Pakistan right now that they just want to go ahead and attack another one of our consulates. Or, perhaps another one of our bases? Or, maybe it could just be a car of family members of the representatives or military personnel over there. Okay, good.

Yep, good on all accounts.

[Edit: I realize after I hit Post that it was entirely tangential to the topic of the thread at the time. But, when it hits, it hits. No personal affront, CZ.]

[Cold_Zero]

You mean Patriot? Personally I support putting up upgraded version of Northrop Grumam's anti-artillery laser on a satellite in Regan's Star War style.

They should have one of those in the 'Green Zone' too.

Soravia,The THAAD system is the next generation of theater level Anti Ballistic Missile systems. Totally different from the MIM-104 (Patriot) systems can also shoot theater ballistic missiles out of the sky as well, but THAAD is pretty cool in how it does it. bud

[Cold_Zero]

Whoa there little buddy. We have "good relations" with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan?

So, we didn't just hostilely take over Iraq, nor are we trying to set up a pretend government that's going to just turn around and become very corrupt and end up stabbing us in the back like every other single government we help set up. Okay, good.

And yet we have good relations with the al-Maliki government, so much so they really dont want us to pull out prematurely from Iraq. Now sure there are Shiite and former Baathists that dont like the US but for the most part we have a good relationship with Iraq and probably have the capability of deploying THAAD and other weapon systems on the Iraqi borders. Heck we can even park them in Kuwait... no problem. Not to mention a good relations with the Kurds.

Quote »So, we backed up the militias that helped put the Taliban in power, because we hated the Russians so god damned much during the CW that we are now fighting ghosts in some ***-hat sand trap hilly *** terrain and we're never going to win the war because they're raping children so they can breed like bunnies. Okay, good.[/quote]And yet we still have a very good relationship with Hamid Karzai and his government.

Quote »And, we are so friendly with Pakistan right now that they just want to go ahead and attack another one of our consulates. Or, perhaps another one of our bases? Or, maybe it could just be a car of family members of the representatives or military personnel over there. Okay, good.

Yep, good on all accounts.[/quote]And yet each year we dole out billions of dollars to the Pakistani government for "anti terrorism money" to upgrade their aging fleet of......F-16's and other crap that they buy from us. And yes, for the time being we have good relations with the Musharraf government in Islamabad.

Heck we even have a base in Kyrgyzstan and Turkey that can do the job. But the US won't push Russia that far. Deployment of anti ballistic missile systems in Central Asia, the Middle East and East Asia would cause Russia to **** a brick. I am reminded of watching a similar news story unfold in Armenia. Soon after the fall of the Soviet Union when Armenia joined the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States) and the CSTO (Collective Security Treaty Organization). Around 1995-96 Russia planned on parking batteries of S-300's in Yerevan to defend its common neighbor in CSTO from the Turks and much less the Iranians. Ankara **** a brick when the announcement was made because the S-300's were 'within striking distance' of the Military and Civil airports in Turkey. So the Armenians work with Greece (a common ally) to sell the S-300's to them, who had been shopping around with Raytheon to buy the MIM-104 Patriot systems. Greece agreed to take the S-300s and Turkey again **** a brick again because of the 'striking distance." I believe Greece drop shipped the missiles to Crete last time I heard. Make no mistake, Russia would do and say the same thing with the US stationing Anti Ballistic Missile systems in the Middle East, Central Asia, the Caucasus and East Asia. Not to mention what Iran would say and do.

If you guys dont believe me about this stuff, look up issues like GUAM and New Great Game. The United States really knows how to push the Russians buttons.

Quote »[Edit: I realize after I hit Post that it was entirely tangential to the topic of the thread at the time. But, when it hits, it hits. No personal affront, CZ.] [/quote]No Marenta, the personal affront came when you said, "Whoa there little buddy" in an effort to show disrespect to me and to diminish everything that I have said. Seriously Marenta, you are right we dont have warm and fuzzy relationships with Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq like say, Canada or England. But just because some sector of the population in these countries (typically radical Islam or nationalists) doesnt like the United States doesnt mean that these countries cease to have common alliances and good military relations with the United States.bud

[Marenta]

After a few brief moments of reflection, I gained the clairvoyance to once again post on a normal human level.

There are many coined phrases about history, and men's mistakes within it. Most of which have us repeating history, or that history points out our mistakes; something along those lines, or in that territory.

While we may have a good repertoire with the countries established governments now, they will change, like they always do. It is our single most repeated mistake. I'm not worried about the Russians, not one bit. They've learned from their mistakes, and they're making a change for the better. Some areas of their country are thriving, business is doing well over there, and they're finally starting to see an economical incline. Russia and the US aren't so eager to jump into a war, we spent 20+ years fighting a war of media and perceptions; neither country is willing to go to that point again.

I am torn between projected power and isolationism. I want both, but we're spread so thin right now, if we had another terrorlst attack inside the US we wouldn't be able to muster enough troops to defend ourselves unless we went to a draft. So, part of me wants to shut all of our **** down in other countries and just let the rest of the world go to hell and us take care of us. But, the other humanitarian part says that since we are the big guys on the block, we have a responsibility to ensure that justice and prosperity is universal throughout the world. Either way, China and NK are much bigger of a threat than Russia is at this moment, anyway.

And, just so you know, I meant no disrespect toward you nor did I mean to diminish what you have said in any way, shape, or form. That opening phrase was a knee jerk reaction, and probably would have been blurted out of my mouth had we been having this conversation face-to-face.

And, with that being said, I'm bowing out of this one.

[Soravia]

US should have a stealth rapid troop deployment program. Something like shooting people up into space in stealth craft and drop them into the far away combat zone within an hour or so.

If they Russians thought they could take over Gerogia and other ex-Soviat nations while the US is occupied with Iraq and Afghan, they would be making a grave mistake. They have not learned their lessons that economic strength makes a nation stronger and the military strength cost a nation more than money. It is not like Georgia and other nations would just quiet down after being occupied by Russia.

[Cold_Zero]

Remember Soravia,The Russians are not trying to take over Georgia. The issue at heart here is South Ossetia which broke away from Georgia. It can be also pointed out that North Ossetia is a part of Russia and there are a lot of Ethnic Russians in the region. I view this whole thing in two ways:1. The whole Western Sphere of influence in this region that I have been talking about.2. A continuation of the Chechnya and Dagestan conflicts for Russia to keeps its control in its country of this region.

[confedup]

I saw an english news report today that stated Russia tried unsuccessfully to take out the big BP pipeline in Georgia....

Here it ishttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/mon...1.xml

[Cold_Zero]

That could get interesting! British Petroleum would have a lot to loose if that pipeline went up in flames.

[Cold_Zero]

I was thinking last night, in the spirit of the Olympics. Why are Georgia and Russia fighting during the Olympics? Isn't there suppose to be cease fires and peace during the Olympics?

I guess here is where we are at:1. Russian Black Sea fleet have left its ports and docked at Ochamchire in Abkhaz. Ukraine who controls teh straights between the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea now indicate that they will not let the Russian ships that need to transverse the Kerch Straights back in the Sea of Azov. From what I can tell 3 LSTs from the 197th Amphibious Ship Brigade have landed troops in Abkhaz to take it back from Georgia. The news last night indicated that Russia was also blockading the Georgian coast on the Black Sea.

2. Georgian President Saakashvili said "They need control of energy routes," Mr. Saakashvili said. "They need sea ports. They need transportation infrastructure. And primarily, they want to get rid of us. " The problem with this statement is that oil from Makhachkala, is sent through the Makhachkala- Rostov na Donu pipeline or the Makhachkala- Sochi. And oil from Baku is shipped through Russia on the Baku-Novorossiysk Pipeline. Why would Russia need the pipelines, which President Saakashvili was referring to, that goes from Baku in Azerbaijan to Supsa Georgia, Batumi Georgia or Ceyhan Turkey, Georgia on the Black Sea? Also, it should be pointed out that South Ossetia is landlocked in the northern part of Georgia? The only thing I can think of is that the Azeri-Georgian pipeline skirts the southern border of South Ossetia.

3. Russia has re-enforced South Ossetia with a 350 piece armored tank column and about 300 artillery pieces and about 9,000 Paratroopers plus the 2,500 piece keeping forces already on South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

4. Georgia set a request to the Pentagon to have the 2,000 Georgian troops in Iraq flown back home.

5. Georgia claims that it shot down 10 Russian jets, while Russia says it was 2. Apparently, the Ukrainians here at work say that their missiles shot down the Russians jets.

[stopcamping]

Even if Turkey was a democracy that loved America and adopted out national anthem, I'd still call for relocating their people, leveling the entire country, and building a permanent US military base there.

Some will squawk, and I'll ignore it.

are you armenian?

[AZhitman]

are you armenian?

Yep. Go figure.

[stopcamping]

Yep. Go figure.

Welcome to the United States!

[AZhitman]

Welcome to the United States!

Thanks, but I'm "2nd-gen".

[Cold_Zero]

Contrary to John McCain's comment, I am not all Georgian right now. It would do well for John McCain, George Bush and Nicholas Sarkozy that remember that the Georgians fired on the Russians first. That Condoleezza Rice was in Georgia not long before the conflict in South Ossetia kicked off.

Georgian President Saakashvili has done nothing but lied about the situation to the world and the news media. They have always had intentions of taking over South Ossetia and Abkhaz. I think that the United States is allying itself with the wrong guy. Remember, Joseph Stalin was born in Georgia.

And this disproportionate response? If the Mexican sent the Mexican Army to the border of Texas in the intention of re-claiming the state and unifying the large amounts of Mexicans and Mexican Americans do you think that America would not be indignant? And raze northern Mexico? You better believe it.

[skylndrftr]

Contrary to John McCain's comment, I am not all Georgian right now.

No surprise there, most of his speech was from wikipedia

CZ I don't know nearly as much as you about this, however from my (limited) understanding, I lok at it this way

-Its a war everybody on both sides lies to make themselves look better

-Putin is worse/more dangerous than I think Saddam ever was

-Russia overstepped by clearly trying to overthrow the government of Georgia. They were playing a peace keeper role and while escalation was justifiable under the conditions impossed on them, the extent and level is really just using a minor skirmish to imposse their will on Georgia

-Russia has done far worse in Chechnya than Georgia has in Ossetia

[rn79870]

Unless you're an American Indian you fall into that category too, albeit grandparents, etc. Heck, I can trace my bloodline back to the American revolution, which only means my ancestors participated in stealing indian land.

[Cold_Zero]

No surprise there, most of his speech was from wikipedia

CZ I don't know nearly as much as you about this, however from my (limited) understanding, I lok at it this way

-Its a war everybody on both sides lies to make themselves look better

As long as you can see that everyone, from the United States, Georgia, Ukraine and even Russia have something to gain from this, you are doing well. It does look a little suspicious that Condoleezza Rice was in Georgia prior to the Georgian Invasion of South Ossetia. Something that Russian President Medvedev pointed out.

Quote »-Putin is worse/more dangerous than I think Saddam ever was[/quote]

It is ironic that you mention this. Putin said the same thing about Saakashvili.

http://www.reuters.com/article...=true

"They of course had to hang Saddam Hussein for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "But the current Georgian rulers who in one hour simply wiped 10 Ossetian villages from the face of the earth, the Georgian rulers which used tanks to run over children and the elderly, which threw civilians into cellars and burnt them -- they (Georgian leaders) are players that have to be protected."

Quote »-Russia overstepped by clearly trying to overthrow the government of Georgia. They were playing a peace keeper role and while escalation was justifiable under the conditions impossed on them, the extent and level is really just using a minor skirmish to imposse their will on Georgia[/quote] It should be pointed out that: 1. Georgia has overthrown the democratically elected governments in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. 2. South Ossetia has a majority ethnic Russian population. The guys here say upwards of 80-90%. 3. Russians peace keepers have been in the region since the 1990's. 4. The people of South Ossetia voted to secede from Georgia. 5. When you mess with the Bear, you should expect him to get pissed off and try to bite your head off.

But seriously, to the point of this overreaction. Here is an analogy. Let's say that the Mexican Military rolls up to the Texas border and starts to invade parts of Texas in order to take the State back as its Territory and re-unite all the Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. Do you think for one second that America would tally up the amount of tanks, troops and weapons deployed in the operation? Hell no. The United States would send a message loud and clear and make sure that Mexico had not more intentions of doing the same thing again. The United States would totally obliterate the forces and probably bomb the **** out of Northern Mexico and Mexico City.

Quote »-Russia has done far worse in Chechnya than Georgia has in Ossetia[/quote]

Let's not forget Dagestan as well. But it should be noted that before the Russian Military leveled Grozny, they did surround the city and allow civilians to leave. It is a bit ironic that Americans have a problem with Russia razing Chechnya (their own country), but have no problem with the NATO bombing of Belgrade, Serbia.

The other Ironic thing about this is. This has happened before in Eastern Europe, with Kosovo.

Participant in Kosovo-----------Participant in South Ossetia Serbia-----------------------------Georgia Kosovo----------------------------South Ossetia NATO------------------------------Russia KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army)-South Ossetia Secessionist Forces