Humanitarian effort or Invasion?

[Cold_Zero]

An interesting FactFile about Abkhazhttp://www.reuters.com/article...=true

Quote »FACTBOX: Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia regionWed Aug 13, 2008 9:15am EDT(Reuters) - Jubilant rebel troops proclaimed the "liberation" of Abkhazia on Wednesday as they surveyed a remote gorge abandoned by Georgian forces.

Here are some facts about Abkhazia:

HISTORY:

* A Black Sea region bordering Russia, Abkhazia was once the favorite holiday destination of the Soviet Union's elite. It accounts for about half of Georgia's coastline.

* Abkhazia is internationally recognized as part of Georgia but it has declared itself an independent state. It fought a war in the early 1990s to drive out Georgian forces. The conflict killed an estimated 10,000 people and forced hundreds of thousands to leave their homes.

* Georgia, a former Soviet state, says just under 250,000 people -- most of them ethnic Georgians -- were driven out by the conflict and are now registered as internally displaced. Abkhazia's separatist authorities dispute this, saying there are no more than 160,000 internally displaced people.

BUILD-UP TO CONFLICT:

* On coming to power in January 2004 after a bloodless revolution, pro-Western Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili vowed to make reuniting the country his top priority.

* On April 16, 2008, then Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered his government to intensify ties with Abkhazia and Ossetia, a second Georgian breakaway territory. Tbilisi said the move amounted to a "creeping annexation" of its land by Moscow.

* Russia can deploy up to 3,000 peacekeeping troops in Abkhazia under a 1994 ceasefire agreement. Georgia complained the Russian troops were effectively propping up the separatists. Moscow said their presence was preventing more bloodshed.

* Early in May, Russia sent extra troops to counter what it said was a Georgian plan to attack Abkhazia, though Tbilisi denied any such intention. Moscow said there were over 1,500 armed men in the area of the Kodori Gorge. Local police said there were 450.

* The remote Kodori Gorge had become the focus for a sharp escalation in tension between Russia and Georgia that left Western diplomats worrying that it would only take a small spark to ignite a renewed armed conflict. The gorge, on the boundary between Georgia proper and Abkhazia, was the only area of Abkhazia controlled by Tbilisi. Rebel forces captured it on Tuesday.

* A U.N. report on May 26 said a Russian air force jet had shot down a Georgian unmanned spy plane over Abkhazia on April 20. Russia denied involvement, saying the plane was shot down by a separatist anti-aircraft missile. The separatists say they have shot down seven Georgian spy drones so far in 2008.

* Saakashvili proposed a peace deal under which South Ossetia and Abkhazia would be given "a large degree of autonomy" within a federal state. The separatists have said they will settle for nothing less than full independence.

THE PEOPLE:

* Abkhazia's separatist administration says the region's population is 340,000. Tbilisi says that is artificially inflated.

* The Abkhaz people are ethnically distinct from Georgians. They say they were forcibly absorbed into Georgia under Soviet rule and now want to exercise their right to self-determination.

* According to the International Crisis Group think tank, a Soviet census in 1989 showed ethnic Abkhaz accounted for 18 percent of the region's population, ethnic Georgians 45 percent and other groups, mostly Russians and Armenians, the rest.

* Starting in the late 1990s, some ethnic Georgians began returning to their homes in Abkhazia's Gali district, near the de facto border with Georgia. About 50,000 people have returned to the district.

* Separatist officials say over 80 percent of residents in Abkhazia have been issued with Russian passports.[/quote]

[Marenta]

So much hostility in here. Sounds like you all need to take a trip to South Ossetia for a while to cool off.

And, for the record. I am firmly against NATO involvement in Serbia. I think the entire Yugoslav peoples need to put **** behind them and grow the fcsk up. The Serbs should've never went into Bosnia. But, now they're complaining that the Turks still have control over their country, wah wah! STFU and deal with it you POS country, either grow a pair and become sovereign or just STFU.

[Cold_Zero]

Not sure what the Turks have to do with Serbia. Maybe I missed something. I know Germany has large Turkish populations.

One funny side note. With all the mention of Russia and Ukraine, the Google Ads keep populating 'Odessa Darlings' and RussianEuro.com.' Ha!

[skylndrftr]

But seriously, to the point of this overreaction. Here is an analogy. Let's say that the Mexican Military rolls up to the Texas border and starts to invade parts of Texas in order to take the State back as its Territory and re-unite all the Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. Do you think for one second that America would tally up the amount of tanks, troops and weapons deployed in the operation? Hell no. The United States would send a message loud and clear and make sure that Mexico had not more intentions of doing the same thing again. The United States would totally obliterate the forces and probably bomb the **** out of Northern Mexico and Mexico City.

Like I said, limited knowledge (hey ask me semiconductor lithography questions!) but...I tend to disagree with your anology. The territories in question where a part of Georgia. if the situation was reversed, how would Russia take provinces suceeding (again, re: Chechnya).

A better anology would be the Baja penninsula suceeding from Mexico to the US and when mexico sends troops, we blot up The entire fing Yucatan.

and as for your bear comment. If we accept that other nations conduct can be compared to wild animals and that that is a valid reason, then all is lost.

[Cold_Zero]

Like I said, limited knowledge (hey ask me semiconductor lithography questions!) but...I tend to disagree with your anology. The territories in question where a part of Georgia. if the situation was reversed, how would Russia take provinces suceeding (again, re: Chechnya).

A better anology would be the Baja penninsula suceeding from Mexico to the US and when mexico sends troops, we blot up The entire fing Yucatan.

A few things:1. South Ossetia and Abkhaz were autonomous during the Soviet Era and after the break up of the Soviet Union, Georgia made a power grab for these areas. All this talk in the Media and from Politicians about Russia making a grab for them is inaccurate. To the contrary, these regions voted for Independence from Georgia, while they were autonomous regions and it was Georgia that subverted this democratic process and took control via military force of the governments.2. Chechnya had always been a part of Russia, even after the break up of the Soviet Union, North Ossetia, Dagestan and Chechnya remained in the Russian Federation. 3. Are you comparing the problem Chechnya to the problem in South Ossetia? The two are vastly different.

Quote »and as for your bear comment. If we accept that other nations conduct can be compared to wild animals and that that is a valid reason, then all is lost.[/quote]How high of you. It was an analogy and don’t believe for one second that the US wouldn’t react in the same way. We would put a whole lot of hurt if our peace keepers were attacked along our border to dissuade someone from doing it again.

[skylndrftr]

How high of you. It was an analogy and don’t believe for one second that the US wouldn’t react in the same way. We would put a whole lot of hurt if our peace keepers were attacked along our border to dissuade someone from doing it again.

Why thank you!

Theres a difference between wouldn't and shouldn't. Its about an appropriate response and nto looking like nutters.

[rn79870]

:Mod note:I've cleaned up this thread and a few others. Stopcamping won't be tracking mud through our forums for at least a week.

[Cold_Zero]

There is a concerning report that Russian forces may be using Cluster Bombs in civilian towns. Of course this hasn't been verified and we will wait to see what comes of this report. A lot of these claims are aimed at pulling the United States into the conflict.bud