HPDE Begining Brake Setup

[l0nestar]

I'm semi-new to this section of Nico and have entered my first HPDE ( AMS Track Day | Autobahn Country Club - Joliet IL). I'm starting out as a beginner - just going for fun.

Currently I have an S13 (DE) coupe with a stock R33 RB25, putting out around 275 WHP. The suspension is stock as well.

Please keep in mind that this is my DD as well, so I do not want to be changing pads before events, but I will if I must. I'm considering Z32 TT calipers, but would like to exploit the stock S13 as much as possible.

I know that I need to upgrade the pads / rotors / fluid. I was thinking of the following:

Brembo blank (stock) rotors + Hawk HPS pads + ATE Super Blue.

I'm interested in what the track-rats here have to say.

[AZhitman]

You're totally on the right track (no pun intended).

Too many people think they need mad mods to hit an HPDE, but it's really about developing your driver skills while ensuring your car is well-maintained and can handle benig put through the abuse of "learning" to drive.

I think your plan is perfect, definitely change the pads and fluid for sure. Rotors can wait.

Also - Make sure your PS fluid is fresh, you'll boil it over for certain during spirited driving. Tie a sock around the reservoir to catch any overflow.

Lastly, I'd focus on making sure your cooling system is top-notch and your tires are perfectly inflated and suspension settings are near stock - Then you can make adjustments based on how your car performs.

For HPDE 1, just go out there and soak up as much knowledge as you can, don't stress over fast laps.

[l0nestar]

AZhitman,Thanks for the quick / prompt response!

Currently I have some blank rotors + 'Mystery Pads'. I'm going to inspect the rotors verify how much 'life' is in them, most likely replace with new OEM.

I recently installed a small PS cooler since I had to remove the factory 'cooling loop' when I swapped X-members. PS fluid is fresh.. I will keep the 'sock' idea in mind..

Speaking of cooling, I just installed a DiF can controller, and I am considering doing a write-up on it I like it a lot.

As far as the suspension goes, it has not been touched. Tires are summer performance, but taking a spare pair with me. I was considering having the alignment checked, but that is 'if needed'.

I can go over my setup / plans as well, just wanted to make sure at least my braking setup was adequate.

I'm used to hearing 'The best $300 part for your car is seat-time' and I agree with it, after you have a good baseline to start with. I'm just trying to get to that baseline.

[crackler]

HPS are probably a little too light duty for the track. I had pad fade running them on my s13, while at HPT running about 7/10 my first time on a track. If I where to stick to hawks I would probably go with HP+. Personally though I would go with Carbotech's. I ran their XP-9's on the street and autoX, and they where way overkill, would lock very quickly. Awsome initiall bite, and good modulation. The HPS lacked in both. I am not a fan of hawk pads, but I know alot of other people like them. The carbotechs are more money, but i felt more confident on them as well.

And if youdon't know what the car is set to I would get the alignment checked.

[l0nestar]

Cracker,I could not find XP-9's on Carbotech's site. I'm really looking at the AX6 (1106). They appear to fit my requirements. Suggestions for rear pads, or would stock be fine? I don't know how much I'm going to be using the rears. Price is not really a deciding factor, safety / 'right tool for the job' is.

Per Carbotech's FAQ - Quote:http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.html#4"AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross & novice track day drivers and beginner high performance driver education (HPDE) drivers on street driven cars using street tires eliminating the need to change brake pads at the track. ...AX6™ is NOT a race compound, and should not be used as such. AX6™ shouldn’t be used by any intermediate or advanced track day drivers, and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires). Cars in excess of 300hp and/or 3,000lbs should not use AX6™ for any track use."

[crackler]

I think they where also called panther plus. It has been a while since I bought them.

Whats the weight of the 240, IIRC mine was north of 3k with me in it. Are you running r-comps?

Sounds like you are close on power, and over on weight. And once you get a few events in you don't want to have to worry about out braking your brakes.

From what I hear, Carbotech has good C/S call them, and tell them the kind of car and event you plan on running and see what they recomend.

The pads I had were not recomended for street use, but they bit harder cold then my street hawk pads did. They sounded like a trash truck once they got hot. and dusted like no tomorrow.

BTW: I, and other driver with more skill than I found my car to have a heavy front brake bias. Which means you would need a higher torque pad in the rear than in the front to keep it balanced. But if you are on track, you need a good strong pad up front to deal with the heat, since the front does so much more of the work. I never had a chance to play with mix and match brake pads before I sold the car. Sorry.

[l0nestar]

Cracker,You are correct, they are formerly Panther Plus. My tires are Z-rated I believe (dry summer tires).I don't think I'm over on weight, but I will check that soon enough.

I think I will just call their C/S. I don't want to be 'at the limit' of the AX6, might just go with the XP8.

I'm concerned about bias. I don't want to be at the event changing pads back-and-forth :-\

I may get a set of HP+ to throw in the mix, though. Not sure :-\ I wold not mind getting front pads to change out, but would rather get 'dual-duty' pads, if I could.

Do you have any suggestion against, quite possibly, stock Brembo blank rotors?

[glitched]

I’ll just throw in my 2 cents as well.

Last year was my first “full” season of racing. I did more than a dozen autocross events, 3 high speed autocross and one lapping day.I have z32 calipers up front, HPS pads all around, and brembo slotted rotors all around.

I felt very happy with my brakes all season long on the cone courses and the high speed autocross at the track. That is until I had the lapping day.20min-on-track sessions (5 in one day) was KILLER on my brakes, after about 7 to 8min of going all out I would have to significantly pull back because the pedal was going to the floor.

I attribute this mostly to not running performance brake fluid - I was running Napa fluid – shame on me right?

I also experienced strong front brake bias, but what do you expect of my setup, right?

[crackler]

If the pedal was going to the floor it was your fluid boiling, not the pads fading. Pad fade is when you have the same pressure, but they don't slow you down. I had pad fade on my HPS, not fluid boiling.

And the more I think about it, IIRC my weight was in the 2600 lb range not 3k.

I have stock Brembo blanks fronts on my miata. As long as you are okay with them not being zinc coated. I haven't had any issues with mine, other than surface rust, like any non coated rotor gets. They are TUV rated as well.

[l0nestar]

glitched,Thanks for the input!

I'm surprised you maxed out the Z32 calipers (are they 2 (NA) or 4 (TT) )? seems like it would have been the HPS pads. NAPA fluid is Valvoline if I recall. Just get good high-temp and your done!

The big difference between your setup and mine is that I plan on doing 1 _maybe_ 2 HPDE's per year... This is a DD, not a dedicated track car.

[l0nestar]

cracker,

My weight should be around 27-2900 lbs wet with me in it. Zinc coating does not bother me. TUV rating is good!

Thanks everybody for their input too!

[nismofly]

z32 brakes with axxis ultimates or the carbotechs and a good high temp fluid like ate or motul and youll be good to go

ive been hearing less and less praise for the hps as a track day pad, the ultimates seem like a real nice street/track pad

[glitched]

The big difference between your setup and mine is that I plan on doing 1 _maybe_ 2 HPDE's per year... This is a DD, not a dedicated track car.

Just thought I'd add that I drove the 240 5 days a week to and from work and then raced it damn near every weekend last summer.

[91rs13]

Brembo blank (stock) rotors + Hawk HPS pads + ATE Super Blue.

I'm interested in what the track-rats here have to say.

The Stock Brakes are not bad --Brembo blanks ( NOT Cross Drilled) , Pads and Good fluid should be fine.

I have Run the HPS and Axxis (sp?) ultimates and did not care for them. I am currently running Porterfield R4's for the track and R4S's for AutoX. The R4's are very predictable and I did not get any fade. Fair amount of dust though.

As for Fluid I switch between the Super Blue and the AT200 --and flush before every track day. I did have a small over heating issue at WGI with the Super Blue. For the $$ I think the MOTUL is a better option. Although many people swear by Ford Heavy duty.

Many people I run with swear by the Hawk Blues for the track. Not a good dual purpose pad, but I am told when they warm up --nice grip.

PS --Anyone looking for Trackdays in the Northeasthttp://www.Patroon.motorsportreg.com --Nissans Welcome!

[l0nestar]

91rs13,

What pads are you running on your rear axle? Same as front?

[l0nestar]

Does anybody suggest replacing my original rubber lines with braided stainless lines? (Goodridge) Or just wait for later?

Oh, I spoke with Carbotech. They agreed that I am probably pushing the limit on the AX-6, and to go with the XP8.

My projected setup has been updated:

Brembo blanks (OEM) all around (Depending on life remaining)Carbotech XP8: FrontATE Ceramic: RearATE Super Blue

[91rs13]

91rs13,

What pads are you running on your rear axle? Same as front?

Most of the time I run the Same front and rear. I have run different compounds in the rear from time to time. ( either a street or a harder compound)

As for the braided lines --do it, makes for a much better feel.

[l0nestar]

.
Modified by l0nestar at 3:28 PM 3/7/2008

[l0nestar]

Alternative:

Rotors:Front: ATE PremiumOne Slotted RotorRear: Brembo Replacement Rotor

Pads:Front: Hawk HP Plus Rear: Hawk HP Plus

Does anybody have any suggestions (pro / con) for this - specifically experience with the HP Plus pads.

[nismoautoxr]

go with a smooth rotor front and rear.Go with HP+ front and Blues in the rear.HPS will absolutely not work on the front for a track day.They will stop you, but ,they will be M2M after your 3rd session.The problem is that once they exceed the operating temp (usually after the 1st session),they will cook the binder out of the pad and the pad will turn to sawdust.

Trust me .I have been there and done that .The plus is good all the way around but the 240 is kindof lopsided to the front on the brakes.The rears need to be more aggressive to make it more even.

Hope that helps and enjoy your track time

Ricky-

[l0nestar]

Ricky,

Thanks for your reply!

I should have updated this about a week ago

Here is what I ordered.

Hawk HP+ (F+R)Brembo OEM Rotors (F+R)ATE Super Blue fluid

It ended up being exactly $400 shipped to my door.

Is there an easier way to adjust the brake bias, or just get more aggressive pads for the rear? Or do I have a convoluted thought on this? (confusing clamping power, and bias)

[nismoautoxr]

The main thing is that you have pads that will stand up to the abuse.With HP+ you will be fine on track and have some forgivingness on the street as well.Main thing now is to just have fun.

The fluid is good the pads will go several weekends of 9/10ths driving and you can adjust from there.Most cars and drivers require differant setups based on many variables .

I plan to upgrade my stock brakes since I now have the wheels to accomodate larger brakes so my learning curve will start over at that point.

Good luck

[l0nestar]

nismoautoxr,I decided to go with a dual-duty pad, at least for now!

for the most part, I don't plan on hitting the track harder than 5-6/10. Take it easy and try to absorb as much as possible

Thanks for the insight!

[kclo4]

I am in a similar predicament. I have a Z32 26mm setup in front, Z32 rears and a 1 1/16 Z32 master on whatever crap came on the donor car in rear and mountain blanks in front with Hawk HPS.

I have a couple issues going on, my pedal is not as firm as I was expecting so after bleeding the system many times I think there is air in it still. I am going to attempt to pressure bleed it to get some feedback.

The car doesn’t want to stop quickly while the brakes are cold but if I get then nice and hot they will. If I really rip on the brakes one front tire will lock but the before that happens the car still doesn’t slow down super fast. My POS Grand Am I use for a DD stop better for normal driving. I am using The Motorcraft heavy duty and never had any pad fade or fluid boil but I don’t make any power either.

I was thinking about keeping the mountain rotors in front and trying to clean the surface up a bit, and do Carbotech XP8's front and rear with new Brembo blanks in the rear.

This is on a S14 with mostly stock KA, probably right at 3000lbs loaded with driver and fuel , and used for everything including street (but not DD, auto-x, drift, track days). Now I am going to be on R-comps instead of street tires.

Any comments on the Ferodo DS 2500’s? They are about the same price as the Carbotechs on splparts. It would be nice to not kill rotors quick and dust is ok but I don’t want TOO much of it and noise isn’t so much of an issue. I NEED to be able to stop better on cold brakes for autocross and I think the XP8 will do that, but I know there are other pads that would fit this bill as well.

[kclo4]

Also, is there a dealer or NICO sponsor that sells carbotech pads for less than listen on the carbotech website?

[applespeed]

sorry to threadjack, but does anyone know how to prevent the brake fluid from boiling during track sessions?

[91rs13]

I ran Hawk Blues Last Week on the car for the first time.

Wow what a pad --Great initial bite. I ran at Pocono North on Friday and Watkins Glen Mon-Tuesday --Great pad wear ( better than the Porterfield R4's I was running)

I did have some brake fade on Tuesday --but a Quicl bleed of the system cured it.

As for boiling fluid --I was running Super Blue ( changed a week before the Pocono event) --and need to get some cooling to the Brakes, and a shield for the Master Cylinder. I hope that will help the boiling of the fluid.

[crackler]

sorry to threadjack, but does anyone know how to prevent the brake fluid from boiling during track sessions?

What kind of fluid are you running? And how long has it been since you replaced the fluid?

The ATE super Blue that 91RS13 mentioned is a good choice, as well as Motul RBF600. The Motul IIRC has a higher Dry and Wet boiling point, but is twice as much as the Super Blue, and has to (Should be) be replaced more often.

Also brake ducting would help as well, Like 91RS13 said.

[applespeed]

i think the last time my brake fluid was semi-changed was about 60,000 miles ago when i replaced all the rotors and pads.

would changing to steel-braided lines prevent the brake pedal from going to the floor once the fluid boils? also, do slotted rotors decrease heat fade?

[crackler]

Stoptech apparently has a wealth of info on their site.http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...shtml

Nothing is going to keep the pedal from going to the floor once the fluid boils. The trick is to never let it get to the point of boiling.

BRAKE FADE

Repeated heavy use of the brakes may lead to "brake fade". There are two distinct varieties of brake fade:

1) Pad fade: When the temperature at the interface between the pad and the disc exceeds the thermal capacity of the pad, the pad loses friction capability due partly to out gassing of the binding agents in the pad compound. Pad fade is also due to one of the mechanism of energy conversion that takes place in the pad. In most cases it involves the instantaneous solidification of the pad and disc materials together - followed immediately by the breaking of bonds that releases energy in the form of heat. This cycle has a relatively wide operating temperature range. If the operating temperature exceeds this range, the mechanism begins to fail. The brake pedal remains firm and solid but the car won't stop. The first indication is a distinctive and unpleasant smell that should serve as a warning to back off.2) Fluid boiling: When the fluid boils in the calipers, gas bubbles are formed. Since gasses are compressible, the brake pedal becomes soft and "mushy" and pedal travel increases. You can probably still stop the car by pumping the pedal but efficient modulation is gone. This is a gradual process with lots of warning.

In either case temporary relief can be achieved by heeding the warning signs and letting things cool down by not using the brakes so hard. In fact, a desirable feature of a good pad material formula is fast fade recovery. Overheated fluid should be replaced at the first opportunity. Pads that have faded severely should be checked to make sure that they have not glazed and the discs should be checked for material transfer. The easy permanent cures, in order of cost, are to upgrade the brake fluid, to upgrade the pads, or to increase airflow to the system (including the calipers). In marginal cases one of these or some combination is often all that is required.[/QUOTE}

I don't think braided lines would get you anything.

Cross drilled and/or slotted, IIRC are designed for letting gases escape and better bite, not help heat dissipation, in fact, with the reduced surface area, they are probably worseate heat dissipation. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think I am.http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...shtml

DRILLED VS SLOTTED ROTORS

For many years most racing rotors were drilled. There were two reasons - the holes gave the "fireband" boundary layer of gasses and particulate matter someplace to go and the edges of the holes gave the pad a better "bite".

Unfortunately the drilled holes also reduced the thermal capacity of the discs and served as very effective "stress raisers" significantly decreasing disc life. Improvements in friction materials have pretty much made the drilled rotor a thing of the past in racing. Most racing rotors currently feature a series of tangential slots or channels that serve the same purpose without the attendant disadvantages.

If it has been 60k since you flushed your fluid, and you boiled them, then you need to replace the brake fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it loves to soak up water from the atmosphere. This is why brake fluids have two boiling points listed. DRY: Brand new fluid in a perfect environment, Wet, is once it has absorbed a certain amount of water. And from what I have heard, most people replace their fluid after they boil it, every time, and asap.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...shtml

The greatest irony about brake fluid, however, is the fact that the chemical compositions that tend to be less sensitive to temperature extremes also tend to attract and absorb water! So even though the fluid itself is unlikely to boil (most glycol-based DOT3 fluids have a "dry boiling point" around 400 degrees Fahrenheit,) the water that it absorbs over time tends to boil easily (at 212 degrees Fahrenheit.) It is this characteristic of absorbing moisture that leads to the measure known as the "wet boiling point." The wet boiling point is the equilibrium boiling point of the fluid after it has absorbed moisture under specified conditions. Because brake fluid will absorb moisture through the brake system's hoses and reservoir, evaluation of the wet boiling point is employed to test the performance of used brake fluid and the degradation in it's performance. (And it is why we still need to bleed the brakes frequently on racecars, even though we use racing fluid that costs upwards of $75 per bottle!) The lesson: do NOT expect to avoid bleeding your brakes just because you bought expensive brake fluid.

Replacing your fluid with a good high temp fluid, and some brake ducting, and/or a big brake kit will be the most affective ways of avoiding boiling you fluid. Contrary to popular belief, big brake kits are designed more for heat dissipation, not to stop you faster. Your tires only have so much grip available for stopping. But if you have larger heat sinks, you can usually brake harder / more often without overheating your braking system.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...shtml

Long, long ago in a magazine far, far away, a few renegade brake engineers rallied together to bring forward the following message:

“You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.”

Apperently I have a metric **** ton of reading to do on brakes, I will have to add it to the list after all the suspension stuff I need to read up on.

Hope that helps.