HowTo: P0420/P0430 Workaround Fix - M37/M56/Q70 (Y51)

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Ilya
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So, if you've been around these parts a while, you know that the owners of the V8 Infiniti M/Q70 have been struggling with the inevitability of getting the P0420 or P0430 code at around 100,000 miles +/- a couple of thousand. I myself have had this code happening on/off for nearly 3 years I think. I have managed to get lucky and have it go off just in time for my annual inspection but about 6 months ago, it came on and hasn't gone off since. I was now at the point of no return: either I pay Infiniti ~$3,000 to do the repairs and replace both cats or I drive an uninspected car in NY and suffer the legal fees (tickets, etc.) from doing so.

Going back to the thread linked above...in September 2019, fellow user Yoda's Master suggested that perhaps spacing out the O2 sensor(s) was an option. Unfortunately, it seems the post was lost in the shuffle of the other posts and no one tried. Fast forward to July 2020 and it was mentioned to me to try the same thing in another conversation and I decided to give it a shot. Worst case, I lose like $12. No big deal.

Well, I finally got around to trying it. And what do you know!? It fixed my issue. But, there is a consequence (there is always a 'but' in life, right?). While the fix fixed my P0420 it seems (I've now done nearly 60 miles after clearning my computer and all emissions tests were completed), it did result in the code P2A00 (O2 Sensor Circuit Range/Performance bank1 Sensor 1). This may or may not happen on every vehicle that attempts this P0420/P0430 workaround, but it is important to note. Prior to the implementation of this workaround, the only code I was getting was P0420.

Here is a quick HowTo on what exactly I did.

NOTE: The HowTo had its information updated later in the thread. Make sure to read the whole first two pages.

*Disclaimer* - I am not liable for anything you do to your car. This is just a basic walkthrough.

Task: Fix the P0420/P0430 code using a spark plug anti-fouler to space the O2 sensor(s)
Time: Took me about 35-40 minutes but I took my time
Tools/Supplies Needed:
  • 7/8th or 22mm Socket/Wrench
  • Wire Brush, Pad or Wheel
  • Safety goggles/glasses/shield (safety first)
  • 5/16, 3/8, 1/2 and a slightly bigger than 1/2 drill bit
  • 18mm Spark Plug Non-Fouler (such as Dorman #42009 which can be had on Amazon for a few bucks)
    Note: The above non-fouler will only work for bank 1. Bank 2 results in the transmission oil pan being in the way, but I have been told there is a 90* non-fouler that may work in this situation. Perhaps something like this?
Process:

1) Lift the car either using jack stands or a lift. Make sure the car is secure.

Image

2) Here are the two sensors that result in the P0420 or P0430 code. The driver side is bank 1 and gives the P0420. The passenger side is bank 2 and gives the P0430.

Image

3) Driver side sensor:

Image


Passenger side sensor:

Image


4) Remove the sensor you wish to work on. In my case, I was attempting the test of the non-foulers on the bank 2 sensor.

Image

5) Here is a picture of one of the non-foulers from the top:

Image

6) What you now need to do is take one of the non-foulers and drill out the center using the drill bits. Start with the smaller bit and work your way up until you can easily screw the Oxygen sensor into the non-fouler. In my case, I used the size listed above (the last one was ~14mm). Here is a picture of one of the non-foulers after I had completed drilling it out with my drill press:

Image

7) Next, screw the O2 sensor into the non-fouler that you drilled out:

Image

8) Next, add the non-fouler that hasn't been drilled out. It should look like this:

Image

9) Install the now-extended/spaced sensor back into bank 1. Note the note above in the supplies list. This will not work for bank 2 due to the transmission oil pan.


Yoda's Master
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Did you replace the original crush washer on your sensor?

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Yoda's Master wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:53 pm
Did you replace the original crush washer on your sensor?
I didn't...you think that's why the new code is showing up?

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it's possible since google says one of the reasons could be a leak. It's a cheap attempt before replacing the o2. You could also try swapping left and right to see if the problem follows.

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All good points. Someone else said they got that code too from doing this and cleared it and it never came back so I will try all of these things. But even if it comes to it, $300 for 2 sensors or whatever it costs is better than $3000 for new cats. Car has 126kmi on it, the sensors are probably nearing EOL anyway.

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Ilya wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:27 pm
All good points. Someone else said they got that code too from doing this and cleared it and it never came back so I will try all of these things. But even if it comes to it, $300 for 2 sensors or whatever it costs is better than $3000 for new cats. Car has 126kmi on it, the sensors are probably nearing EOL anyway.
Great write up, thanks for sharing! I am curious though, why not use an O2 sensor extender, they sell these in several configurations including 45 and 90 degree and you wouldn't have to drill out anything. I didn't know if there was something special about the spark plug non-fouler vs an O2 extender. I'm coming up on my annual inspection in Oct so I have a little while to try this option.

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armybrat wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:38 pm
Ilya wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:27 pm
All good points. Someone else said they got that code too from doing this and cleared it and it never came back so I will try all of these things. But even if it comes to it, $300 for 2 sensors or whatever it costs is better than $3000 for new cats. Car has 126kmi on it, the sensors are probably nearing EOL anyway.
Great write up, thanks for sharing! I am curious though, why not use an O2 sensor extender, they sell these in several configurations including 45 and 90 degree and you wouldn't have to drill out anything. I didn't know if there was something special about the spark plug non-fouler vs an O2 extender. I'm coming up on my annual inspection in Oct so I have a little while to try this option.
The video he found used the spark plug anti foulers. Personally i would have gone with one of these two since it's steel and not aluminum.
https://www.amazon.com/Degree-Oxygen-Se ... B08B5GW7SQ
https://www.amazon.com/Espaciador-senso ... B08B5HH8RZ
https://www.amazon.com/Degree-Defouler- ... B07X3KR4VJ

Amazon had a better selection when i suggested it last fall.

IDK what these are made of.
https://www.amazon.com/Mounting-Fitting ... B08D64JNMB
https://www.amazon.com/Oxygen-Sensor-Fi ... B08D6FDRJ6
Last edited by Yoda's Master on Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ilya
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I have added this one to my list if I ever need to do the passenger side: https://www.amazon.com/Espaciador-senso ... B08B5HH8RZ

That being said, yeah I just followed the guide and didn't really know what was out there at the time.

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Did your new code ever go away?

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No, I cleared it and it came back. My next attempt is a new washer but I'm also thinking of just buying two new sensors and calling it a day. These don't last more than 100kmi usually and I'm at 127kmi. Gonna need them soon'ish anyway...

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Well written, well documented with pictures. And thanks for sharing the consequences you faced with the mod.

***

Since you have a lift & might be able to save some time; you could troubleshoot the oxygen sensor code you're getting by reversing the mod - reinstall the downstream oxygen sensor just like the original factory setup to see if anything changes.

If the sensor 1 code stays & the catalyst code comes back, then the pre-cat sensor really is bad.
However, if the sensor 1 code goes away while the catalyst code comes back, then the pre-cat sensor is likely OK and the car probably needs a different bag of tricks to be fooled about P0420.

ETA: My recommendation is based of my experience that o2 sensors don't just die because the odometer rolls into 6 figures. Plus, it would suck to buy a new sensor and end up in the same exact spot.

***

It would probably be nice to throw this picture in here again, to help clarify all the different names the oxygen sensors take.
Image

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The problem is I need to put miles on the car either way...so not sure about the time saving hah. But yeah, my experience with sensors and 6 digit miles isn't the rule of course.

And I love that picture!

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I'm wondering. This should remove the annoying error codes but the CATs will continue to slowly deteriorate. This might be a great way to get the most trade-in value at the dealer if that is the long term plan, no? The dealer has wiggle room to allow you a reduced price on another car and they probably will just send it to auction cuz of the high miles so you won't be stiffing them. Auction buyers already known the high risk on any car they buy so you won't stiff them either. It's a win / win and you escape the torture of thousands to replace the CATs.

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Larz wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:21 am
I'm wondering. This should remove the annoying error codes but the CATs will continue to slowly deteriorate. This might be a great way to get the most trade-in value at the dealer if that is the long term plan, no? The dealer has wiggle room to allow you a reduced price on another car and they probably will just send it to auction cuz of the high miles so you won't be stiffing them. Auction buyers already known the high risk on any car they buy so you won't stiff them either. It's a win / win and you escape the torture of thousands to replace the CATs.
I'm actually looking at doing this. My wife has a '12 RDX and wants to upgrade to a newer MDX. Like Ilya, I've been struggling with the idea of replacing the cats vs getting rid of the car for the MDX and drive her old RDX. New cats are at 100% efficiency brand new but quickly drop down to 95% after break in, around 4k miles of so. From there, if the efficiency drops 3% then the P0420 code pops up. Other than the recurring code, my car absolutely runs great. In my case, the cats are not clogged, just not as efficient as they should be. My performance and mileage are no different than before, which I figure is a good indicator that my cats are flowing fine. I am going to give the O2 extenders a try; if it helps with the code then I may continue to drive it and trade her car in instead.

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I wasn't aware of the percentages but my plan is to drive this car until it costs more than $4-5k every year or other year to keep it running. Even if I need to do the cats in 2-3 years, I'll still do em. So far I have minimal body rust (just a few rock chips) and underbody seems okay except for replaceable components like the exhaust and control arms, etc. It's cheaper than a new car payment and being that I work from home and don't need a car to make money, I can afford to be down to 1 family car for a week or two while I fix it. Obviously my career could change and that would change my plan but right now that's it...

That being said, if I was to keep the car another 10 years, I would certainly imagine that the cat would eventually deteriorate so badly that it would clog badly and prevent the car from actually running.

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Ilya wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:37 pm
I wasn't aware of the percentages but my plan is to drive this car until it costs more than $4-5k every year or other year to keep it running. Even if I need to do the cats in 2-3 years, I'll still do em. So far I have minimal body rust (just a few rock chips) and underbody seems okay except for replaceable components like the exhaust and control arms, etc. It's cheaper than a new car payment and being that I work from home and don't need a car to make money, I can afford to be down to 1 family car for a week or two while I fix it. Obviously my career could change and that would change my plan but right now that's it...

That being said, if I was to keep the car another 10 years, I would certainly imagine that the cat would eventually deteriorate so badly that it would clog badly and prevent the car from actually running.
I hear ya, I really love my car. It just turned 120k miles. Other than the cat code it has run great with no issues in the 5 years that I've owned it. Other than regular maintenance, I really haven't spent much on it. The exhaust and Uprev tune were the two most expensive items so far. The oil jet/timing chain job was free, so that and the HPFP/lifter valve shouldn't be an issue looking ahead. At this mileage, I will probably replace all of the drivetrain fluids, as well as looking at the suspension and maybe giving those some TLC.

So, I did order the short straight O2 extenders from the link that Yoda was kind enough to post. Also got some new crush washers. Only issue with the short ones is that the opening is not quite large enough. These measure 13mm and it needed to be 13.5mm, so I had to ream it out with a rotary file:
Image
Image

So, they are installed now...looking back, the only thing I don't like about the shorter ones is that the openings in the sensor head are closely shrouded by the extender wall at the threaded end. I'm not sure if the sensor will function properly being installed this way. The longer extender would have more room inside before the male threads. Anyway, we'll give these a try and see what happens.

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I did receive the 90* spacers the other day and will be installing them in a few days.

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Ilya wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:15 am
I did receive the 90* spacers the other day and will be installing them in a few days.
I will also try the 90° one if this doesn't work out. After I installed the short one I reset the code and ran a few local errands; so far so good but the true test will start tomorrow when I go back to work and log some more mileage. I'm not going to mess with the passenger side. It hasn't given me any trouble.

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So, good news and bad news.

1) I was able to install the 90* adapter in bank 1 (driver side) with relative ease
2) I was not able to install the 90* adapter in bank 2 (passenger side). At all. And I wasn't even able to re-install the oxygen sensor in bank 2 lol. The thread on the sensor is completely stripped as is the thread on the exhaust itself. So, it looks like I may just bite the bullet and get the Y pipe or whatever it's called with two new sensors and have that part of the exhaust last another 10 years (I likely won't have the car for half of that lol). Is what it is. It's not worth my time/effort to fix the exhaust thread. Overall still cheaper than doing the cats and this is something I would have needed to do anyway because it's rusty as heck under there.

That being said, with no bank 2 sensor right now, this is what the car sounds like:

https://streamable.com/ldotkk

Edit: evidently it's not just a pipe. It's the 2nd cats. This may get expensive. Any way to fix the thread on the cat side?

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Ilya wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:53 pm
So, good news and bad news.

1) I was able to install the 90* adapter in bank 1 (driver side) with relative ease
2) I was not able to install the 90* adapter in bank 2 (passenger side). At all. And I wasn't even able to re-install the oxygen sensor in bank 2 lol. The thread on the sensor is completely stripped as is the thread on the exhaust itself. So, it looks like I may just bite the bullet and get the Y pipe or whatever it's called with two new sensors and have that part of the exhaust last another 10 years (I likely won't have the car for half of that lol). Is what it is. It's not worth my time/effort to fix the exhaust thread. Overall still cheaper than doing the cats and this is something I would have needed to do anyway because it's rusty as heck under there.

That being said, with no bank 2 sensor right now, this is what the car sounds like:

https://streamable.com/ldotkk

Edit: evidently it's not just a pipe. It's the 2nd cats. This may get expensive. Any way to fix the thread on the cat side?
It's worth the time and effort to fix the threaded bung. You can get a 18mm x 1.5 tap on Ebay or Amazon for $10 - $12 bucks, and clean the threads on the O2 bung if you don't want to replace the whole Y-pipe. You can also delete the secondary cats and run straight pipes as an option.

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What is the best 'bang for buck' Y-pipe replacement? Otherwise, yeah, sounds like I'll have to put some elbow grease into re-threading the stock O2 bung so I can get a new sensor in there. I will definitely be doing both sensors though, that much I know.

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Forgot to post these:

The spacers I installed in the beginning on Bank 1 actually started to warp and broke in half upon removal:

Image

New 90* Elbow:

Image

Image

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That sucks that the threads stripped out.
I'm actually not to surprised the aluminum spacers broke, but not you have steel :biggrin:

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The original spacer broke because you drilled out the end so that there wasn't much meat left on the outer threads. It really needs to be a longer straight type (or a 90°type) where you don't have to do any drilling at all. I reamed mine to 13.5mm which is just big enough for the sensor to slide in without touching the inner wall, but leaves enough metal for strength when it's installed and torqued down. MIne was also steel which does add some strength. So far I have 200 miles on mine and no code at all. I'm sure it's still relearning so we'll see.

As far as Y-pipe replacement, an OEM replacement is going to be expensive because of the secondary cats. Those flanges look rough so that might be an issue when trying to remove it. Maybe try and find a used one online or at a junkyard, U-pull it, etc...or time for that custom exhaust which will be cheaper IMHO. They will weld the 18mm ports in for your sensors as part of the installation. Cheapest option is getting that tap and a new sensor but if your secondaries are clogged like you mentioned then all of this is moot...back to that custom exhaust or at least weld in straight pipes.

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There is no after market ready to order y-pipe for say $200-300? I think someone online showed the OEM one being like $1,200 due to, as you mentioned, the cats...which is a non-starter. Might as well just fix the issue properly at that price.

My plan is to buy the tap and try to repair the bung but if a quality after market y-pipe can be had for $200-300, I may just talk myself into an exhaust upgrade. I'm not toooooo worried about the flanges as the top ones seem to be more or less okay (will have to be careful with the studs). The back single flange will need to be cut and drilled out and use custom bolts/nuts to secure it...nothing my father and I haven't done before to an exhaust up here in the wonderful "rustville", NY.

This is the tap I plan to buy...you guys concur this will do? https://www.amazon.com/KMIAN-TOOLS-Metr ... 771&sr=8-2

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Is it safe to drive the car even though it sounds like crap? The possible back pressure or anything won't do no harm?

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Ilya wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 am
There is no after market ready to order y-pipe for say $200-300? I think someone online showed the OEM one being like $1,200 due to, as you mentioned, the cats...which is a non-starter. Might as well just fix the issue properly at that price.

My plan is to buy the tap and try to repair the bung but if a quality after market y-pipe can be had for $200-300, I may just talk myself into an exhaust upgrade. I'm not toooooo worried about the flanges as the top ones seem to be more or less okay (will have to be careful with the studs). The back single flange will need to be cut and drilled out and use custom bolts/nuts to secure it...nothing my father and I haven't done before to an exhaust up here in the wonderful "rustville", NY.

This is the tap I plan to buy...you guys concur this will do? https://www.amazon.com/KMIAN-TOOLS-Metr ... 771&sr=8-2
STOP!!! Don't buy that. You need to buy a thread chaser, not a tap. Taps cut threads and chasers help restore threads.

get one of these
https://www.amazon.com/ARES-71112-Oxyge ... B07253W495
https://www.amazon.com/Supercrazy-Oxyge ... B07GD35NT7
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Oxygen-Senso ... B0195PCO22
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-12230-Oxyg ... B000XETMW0
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool ... B002KSCDCS

And if you completely strip out the threads, then try this
https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Kits-1218 ... B0025PQITU

Another option is find someone who knows how to weld and just replace the damaged bung. You could seal weld the existing bung with the plug and relocate it with the new bung or just cut off the existing and weld that 90° adapter that you have.
https://www.amazon.com/Ledaut-M18X1-5-S ... B01N41391G

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Ilya wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:09 pm
Is it safe to drive the car even though it sounds like crap? The possible back pressure or anything won't do no harm?
you should put some kind of heat shield over the open port. It might run like crap, but you want to make sure the raw exhaust heat doesn't boil your transmission oil or cause damage to the transmission

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Yoda's Master wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:45 pm
STOP!!! Don't buy that. You need to buy a thread chaser, not a tap. Taps cut threads and chasers help restore threads.

get one of these
https://www.amazon.com/ARES-71112-Oxyge ... B07253W495
https://www.amazon.com/Supercrazy-Oxyge ... B07GD35NT7
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Oxygen-Senso ... B0195PCO22
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-12230-Oxyg ... B000XETMW0
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool ... B002KSCDCS

And if you completely strip out the threads, then try this
https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Kits-1218 ... B0025PQITU

Another option is find someone who knows how to weld and just replace the damaged bung. You could seal weld the existing bung with the plug and relocate it with the new bung or just cut off the existing and weld that 90° adapter that you have.
https://www.amazon.com/Ledaut-M18X1-5-S ... B01N41391G
Not necessarily. It depends on how bad the threaded hole is messed up. If the leading threads on the hole is damaged a thread chaser is worthless. In this case, a thread chaser is good IF you can get it started in the hole to begin with. There's no leading edge on a thread chaser. Without knowing the extent of the damage I would recommend the tap.

I would NOT replace the bung. If your secondary cats are clogged (your words Ilya) all of this is pointless anyway. Just replace the Y-pipe.

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Ilya
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Car: 2011 M56x but I spend a lot of time on my 2015 Kawasaki Vulcan S. Former owner of a 2007 M35x. Also take care of my wife's 2016 QX60.
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I'm not sure where I mentioned my cats being clogged but to my knowledge they aren't. They might not be efficient and below the 90% (or whatever that number was - someone in the other thread posted it) point, but my car runs fine. If my cats were clogged, I would expect the car to drive poorly. It runs like a raped ape. With or without the sensor.

I wasn't able to get the tread started with the 90* elbow so my guess is I need a tap to COMPLETELY get a new thread.

Re-thread Tool - https://www.amazon.com/ARES-71112-Oxyge ... B07253W495

Along with:

2x Bosch 15370 (replaces 226A0-ET000 - https://bit.ly/2DQDuaI)

I would consider replacing the pipe entirely if there was an affordable after market option. The OEM option at $1k is definitely the nuclear option.

I think this is the plan...anyone see issues with it?


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